The usual Kevin election post.

Kevin_Lowe said:

The short story on the Ohio recount is that it was riddled with outright illegalities. The hand-counted samples legally had to be randomly chosen, but almost universally they were not. In Cuyahoga County the ballots were illegally and secretly hand-counted beforehand by election officials, who only owned up after being caught. The actions of the Triad technician fiddling with election machinery with the recount pending were also illegal. I think there were a few other instances of Ohio officials playing fast and loose with the election laws.
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True. All these frauds went in Kerry's favor. Had the election been fair, Bush would have won Ohio by a million votes. Triad - a Democratic-linked company - is supposed to be impartial. Ha! I think we can all se what went on here. But even with all the cheating for Kerry, we don't need to recount any further, because he still lost.
 
NoZed Avenger said:
What appears to be the raw exit poll has been released:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/pdfs/Mitofsky4zonedata/


Comments and links:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2111460/


Knock yourselves out.
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The actual exit poll data estimate had Kerry up 51-48, not the 60-40 that Ion claims, for starters. Hardly far off the actual totals (51-49 Bush), well within the margin of error.

Most telling in the exit poll is that it had Kerry up among women by 54-46, and therin, IMHO, lies the problem w/ the poll. Women with children tended to favor Bush, but it stands to common sense that these women would have been less likely to answer that rather lengthy exit poll as they likely had children in tow and wouldn't want to be bothered. Thus, the disparity in the polls.

Kevin - out of the hundreds of Dems in the House, only a few are making an issue of the Ohio vote. They're also the ones who represent minority districts and have political hay to make by making accusations of "minority disenfranchisement". Same goes for Rev. Jesse Jackson, who figures he'll get TV cameras focused on him by jumping in the fray. Note, however, his own son, Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr. won't even get involved in this nonsense. Nor will a single Democratic Senator, nor the Democratic Party and certainly not John Kerry himself. And the reason is there wasn't any fraud or conspiracy!

The Green Party seems to be the sole source of the conspiracy theories you cite. Maybe in Australia the Greens are a serious lot, but here in the USA they tend to be tin-foil-hat-wearing, crystal-healing, magick-spell-casting lunatics. The "trust fund hippie" types. And you've probably seen enough libertarian nonsense on this forum to figure them out, and they're the only other party pushing this "Ohio Conspiracy" BS.
 
I wrote:

Of course, what you will exactly say will also depend on how the Republicans (and the public in general) react to the kooky demand for a new election: if they oppose it, you'll claim they're "covering up" the "theft" of the elections, while if they agree to it, you'll claim that in itself is "evidence" that they are "admitting" something was terribly, terribly wrong with the original elections.

Kevin got insulted:

If one takes the time to look over this post, this paragraph in particular, you'll notice something. There is no content. It's just a sustained, baseless attack on me personally. You believe this, you believe that, you will say this, you will say that, therefore you are irrational and therefore I am excused from discussing any actual matters of fact.

Ah, but here you're wrong. You see, the paragraph was quoted was a PREDICTION about your LIKELY BEHAVIOR in the future. In particular, it was a prediction of how you will react if the Republicans would oppose a new election--that is, you'll claim they're "hiding" the election's "theft".

So let's look at what you said about them in the very post where you whine about the "lack of content" in what I wrote, shall we?

You wrote:

So far the Republicans administrating the Ohio election and recount have run from a sound election like a psychic runs from the million dollar challenge. There are a million excuses why they can't or won't do things right, but until they do things right the outcomes prove nothing.

So, in other words, since the Republicans are (big surprise) opposing your suggestions, you insinuate quite strongly and clearly that they are hiding the "truth" that they have committed fraud. Which is, of course, precisely what I said you are likely to do in the "content-less" paragraph above.

Of course there are also other predictions that I made in the post you whine about which have also come true. I said:

Clearly, the only result you will accept is a Kerry victory--no matter how many elections, re-elections, recounts, or lawsuits are needed.

And you "refuted" this by claiming:

No number of unsound tests are any good. You can have improper elections and improper recounts until the cows come home and it proves nothing either way.

So you WOULD demand more and more elections and re-counts and examinations indefinitely... until the tests are "sound". But since for you, "sound" = "agrees with the exit polls" = "a Kerry victory", I am actually correct, am I not? Unless the re-re-re-re-re-count of the re-re-election gives Kerry the nod, you'll claim all of those counts and elections and recounts were "unsound".

Then there is this little rant:

What a skeptic wants is one test, or one election, that leaves no scope for cheating. Whatever outcome results from that test is the one that matters, and all the rest is just a light show for the suckers.

So, the 110,000,000+ who voted on Nov. 2nd 2004 were little more than "suckers" participating in a "light show" put on for their benefit by dark forces out to cheat them out of their vote, since they voted in elections where there "is a scope for cheating".

Of course, EVERY election EVER held ANYWHERE, including in the free democracies, had SOME "scope for cheating", and sometimes actual cheating, as elections are a human endevour with human screw-ups. So what you are really saying is that the entire democratic system is a sham, since everything is "really" controlled by dark forces behind the scenes, without the "suckers" being fooled by the "light show" (a.k.a. "voting in the elections") knowing it.

And to think I called you a conspiracy theorist...
 
The actual exit poll data estimate had Kerry up 51-48, not the 60-40 that Ion claims, for starters. Hardly far off the actual totals (51-49 Bush), well within the margin of error.

Most telling in the exit poll is that it had Kerry up among women by 54-46, and therin, IMHO, lies the problem w/ the poll. Women with children tended to favor Bush, but it stands to common sense that these women would have been less likely to answer that rather lengthy exit poll as they likely had children in tow and wouldn't want to be bothered. Thus, the disparity in the polls.

Oh, hush. The exit polls favored Kerry, so they are THE TRUTH. I checked, and these web sites you quote with their silly "evidence" and "Figures" were written by someone who once had lunch with a REGISTERED REPUBLICAN. Cleary, she is part of the conspiracy. Don't be fooled.
 
Well new elections are justified, aren't they?

Not really, no, unless you mean 2008...
 
Ion said:
It's in 'Bitter Voter':

http://www.internationalskeptics.co...&perpage=40&highlight=minorities&pagenumber=2
My post here:

matches your:

with my representation here (from memory) of what you said there:

and further says that Kerry's platform is a better deal to the middle class than Bush's policies.
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So when you get caught lying about what I said, you think you can just link to a post of mine that says nothing of the sort, and doesn't contain the words you claimed I said, and no one will notice?

Is this a pathetic attempt to derail the thread now that the recount has gone against you?

Buh-bye.
 
WildCat said:

...
The actual exit poll data[/url] estimate had Kerry up 51-48, not the 60-40 that Ion claims, for starters. Hardly far off the actual totals (51-49 Bush), well within the margin of error.
...
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It was 60-40 at 3 p.m. Pacific Time.

I always mentioned the time.

I saw reports that exit polls got got skewed after that.
 
Ion said:
It was 60-40 at 3 p.m. Pacific Time.

I always mentioned the time.

I saw reports that exit polls got got skewed after that.
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Are those goalposts very heavy? I hope you're wearing a back brace.
 
crimresearch said:
So when you get caught lying about what I said,...
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The key word is:

when.

You didn't catch me.

I showed my representation to reflect what you posted.

I never said that you promoted Bush, you lied that I said that.

You are a liar.

Even though you didn't promote Bush, you deserve him, and he deserves you:

you write about relatives in Iraq;
poor lowlives, your relatives enroll to kill for Bush's money.

Traitors to peace who sold themselves to Bush.
 
NoZed Avenger said:
Are those goalposts very heavy? I hope you're wearing a back brace.
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No goalposts from me, but goalposts from you, US imbecile.

60-40 at 3 p.m. Pacific Time in Kerry's favor.
 
crimresearch said:
So when you get caught lying about what I said, you think you can just link to a post of mine that says nothing of the sort, and doesn't contain the words you claimed I said, and no one will notice?
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Ion can't speak English very well. It's clear now that he can't read and comprehend it either. :rolleyes:
 
Ion said:
No goalposts from me, but goalposts from you, US imbecile.

60-40 at 3 p.m. Pacific Time in Kerry's favor.
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Ah. So only early exit polls can be trusted. Exit polls after 3 pm are also proof of a nefarious conspiracy.

We've pinpointed the time when the Bush operatives touched ground in Ohio -- 3:01 pm. Priceless.

So, let me see if I have this coirreectly: at first the exit polls were to be trusted. Then, when the exit polls appear to be not quite so favorable, its only part of the exit polls that can be looked at.

I hesitate to ask what would happen if the first person polled answered "Kerry" and he had 100% at that point.



You know, Kevin is rational and has things to say. He hasn't convinced me of anything, but he's worth having a discussion with. I bet he hates you cluttering up his thread with this stuff.


N/A
 
WildCat said:
Kevin - out of the hundreds of Dems in the House, only a few are making an issue of the Ohio vote. They're also the ones who represent minority districts and have political hay to make by making accusations of "minority disenfranchisement". Same goes for Rev. Jesse Jackson, who figures he'll get TV cameras focused on him by jumping in the fray. Note, however, his own son, Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr. won't even get involved in this nonsense. Nor will a single Democratic Senator, nor the Democratic Party and certainly not John Kerry himself. And the reason is there wasn't any fraud or conspiracy!

The Green Party seems to be the sole source of the conspiracy theories you cite. Maybe in Australia the Greens are a serious lot, but here in the USA they tend to be tin-foil-hat-wearing, crystal-healing, magick-spell-casting lunatics. The "trust fund hippie" types. And you've probably seen enough libertarian nonsense on this forum to figure them out, and they're the only other party pushing this "Ohio Conspiracy" BS.
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While it's a pleasant change to have someone else be the target of the ad homs, the facts are not dependent on who is trying to make political hay out of them and nor does it follow from the fact that "trust fund hippies" believe something that it is false.

The Greens and Democrats could cry fraud all they liked, and absent supporting facts I'd take no notice.

The problem is that the means for fraud are now well documented in Ohio, as are individual instances of fairly startling "irregularities" entirely consistent with fraud, and the recount that was meant to sort this out was squirrelled so that only a tiny fraction of the votes were ever actually counted a second time. Those are facts that seem to me to be cause for serious concern, whatever the stereotypes and/or motives you choose to attribute to some of the people stating those facts.
 
Kevin_Lowe said:
While it's a pleasant change to have someone else be the target of the ad homs, the facts are not dependent on who is trying to make political hay out of them and nor does it follow from the fact that "trust fund hippies" believe something that it is false.

The Greens and Democrats could cry fraud all they liked, and absent supporting facts I'd take no notice.

The problem is that the means for fraud are now well documented in Ohio, as are individual instances of fairly startling "irregularities" entirely consistent with fraud, and the recount that was meant to sort this out was squirrelled so that only a tiny fraction of the votes were ever actually counted a second time. Those are facts that seem to me to be cause for serious concern, whatever the stereotypes and/or motives you choose to attribute to some of the people stating those facts.
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The Democrats aren't crying fraud. And they have the biggest stake in doing so. Please document your sources for the "well documented irregularities". Are there any by a real newspaper? Or just by Green Party bloggers?
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:
Ion can't speak English very well. It's clear now that he can't read and comprehend it either. :rolleyes:
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But Ion dos prove what a wonderful country the USA is. Even a socially inept semi-literate immigrant w/ poor reasoning skills can come here and find employment. What a country!!
 
WildCat said:
The Democrats aren't crying fraud. And they have the biggest stake in doing so. Please document your sources for the "well documented irregularities". Are there any by a real newspaper? Or just by Green Party bloggers?
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I think Conyers had a pretty good list. Conyers, last time I checked, was a Democrat.

Check:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_U...lating_to_ES.26S_machines_and_political_links

It has all of Conyers' letters under heading 4.2.1.

I'm fairly certain there are also links there to coverage of the new Green lawsuit requesting an actual recount as opposed to an illegal sham.
 
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