The US-Mexico Border Fence

steverino said:
The president of Mexico said our building a fence is like building a Berlin Wall. Wouldn't it be the other way around...We want to keep people from sneaking in, not out. East Germany had the crappy country, not us.
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That was excellent!
 
I read today where a town in Pennsylvania has passed an ordinance to prevent illegals from living in the town, but it got tossed by a federal judge. The law would make it illegal for a landlord to rent to an illegal immigrant, but I'm not sure how they could enforce it. Unlike employers, landlords cannot require social security numbers before leasing, as far as I am aware. Forged documents would work just fine to acquire a lease.

Of course, the ruling will be reviewed, but it was interesting what the judge said:
"Defendant offers only vague generalizations about the crime allegedly caused by illegal immigrants but has nothing concrete to back up these claims."
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Of course, being illegal is a "crime" itself, but since the illegals are being enticed to commit this crime by employers who offer them jobs, it seems that Hazleton wants to ignore the "big fish" in order to punish the minnows. Going after landlords seems chickens**t too. Lots of landlords are simply people with an extra room to rent. Why don't they take on the homebuilding industry instead of harassing people who are just trying to make ends meet?
 
People here keep talking like there's only one solution. Put up a fence, or prosecute employers who hire illegals, or arrest and deport illegals, or put pressure on Mexico.

And of course, every one of those solutions has its own shortcomings and raises its own problems. Why not do all of them?

Do I hear any objections?
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Tricky said:
Here's one.

All you have to do is the number 2 on you list if you are serious only about eliminating illegal labor. That would do it. It would, in my opinion, create more problems than it solves. That's why we don't do it. Americans want cheap prices AND don't want to lose jobs. It is their unwillingness to understand economic reality that causes them to lash out at those who are fueling the "cheap prices" side of the equation.
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Have you thought about what would be involved in doing this?

How many federal inspectors would you have to hire nationwide?

How would you verify a prospective employee's legal status? Believe me when I tell you you can't just call up your local Social Security office and run an SSN by them and find out whether the person's legal or not; it's not simply a question of having access to the data, but rather privacy laws. SSA is forbidden to give out information about people willy-nilly; imagine the field day identity thieves would have if they could get ID info about you by just picking up the phone and calling SSA. So where's your national database of legal employees?

How much do you fine violators? Make it too small and Wal-Mart just shrugs and passes on the cost to its customers; what's a couple of million when you're making profits in the tens of billions? Make it too big and you shut down a law-abiding, tax-paying small businessman who screwed up on the wrong day.

In 2005, Uncle Sam prosecuted only about 700 employers for hiring illegals. Where is the judicial infrastructure you'll need to handle the tens of thousands of new prosecutions every year?

I think you greatly underestimate the cost and difficulty of implementing just this one solution. Do them all, and I think it becomes manageable.
 
BPSCG one of the proposals being looked at around here to implement the Tricky Doctrine is a grace period of purging, but like you say, since law enforcement is *forbidden by law* to enquire of a person's legal resident status without "cause" I dont see how this could be accomplished

We could fix our school money problem in one day with a purge but its not going to happen :(

There is also NO WAY were going to deny emergency health care to illegals either, and thats why you keep seeing these, mostly in jest, bills sent to mexico for health care reimbursement
 
luchog said:
I would strongly suggest that you shut the h3ll up yourself, until you know what you're talking about. It's not simply the southern border states that deal with illegal immigrants. A huge number of them migrate up to the agricultural communities of the Pacific Northwest, as well as other regions of the US north of California, New Mexico, Arizona, and Texas.. On top of that, on the west coast we also have a major problem with illegal Asian immigrants, something that a fence simply isn't going to solve.
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Ok first, I explained that this problem will never go away, and people in the states that have declared emergencies have the only real right to complain about this...You help me make my case by mentioning asian illegals... There wall is a 1,000 mile ocean and that doesnt even stop the flow... Maybe we should mine the Atlantic or build a giant fence around North America.

Second, list one thing an illegal immigrant has done to you to cause you harm... Let me guess, you used to work at a winery picking grapes...
 
Lets see:

1. Hit and run - totalled car

2. No more construction jobs for winter when the recording business slows a bit

3. No more restaraunt jobs for my customers

4. Hit and run - totalled car and medical bills

5. Medical system is toast, no money left for citizens, which means I cant get govt insurance to help pay thr bills when an illegal immigrant, driving illegally hit and runs on my car

6. No more education money, I need now to deal with stupid kids instead of marginally educated ones

7. No more summertime and afterschool jobs for kids

8. My FAVORITE park, and favortie herping ground, Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument has been turned into a war zone http://www.desertinvasion.us/articles/articles_opnm.html
 
MilwaukeeMike said:
Ok first, I explained that this problem will never go away, and people in the states that have declared emergencies have the only real right to complain about this...You help me make my case by mentioning asian illegals... There wall is a 1,000 mile ocean and that doesnt even stop the flow... Maybe we should mine the Atlantic or build a giant fence around North America.
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"Declared emergencies" are political grandstanding that has nothing whatsoever to do with the reality of illegal immigration.
Second, list one thing an illegal immigrant has done to you to cause you harm... Let me guess, you used to work at a winery picking grapes...
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And how have they harmed you, or do you benefit from employing illegal labour?

As for how they've harmed me, how about the high taxes to fund law enforcement because of the criminal activity associated with illegal immigrants. A substantial majority of them are involved in gangs (our local branches of the Tangs and Triads; as well as the numerous small local gang, most prevalent among the Vietnamese communities). And there's also welfare fraud (though that's more common farther south).

Then there's the ever-increasing cost of healthcare, due to the number of illegal immigrants who use mandatory-availability emergency care without contributing a penny to the system. And while I'm on the subject, clogging up the emergency/urgent-care medical system with non-urgent problems, (since it's free and they're not allowed to turn anyone away), or just plain drug seeking, greatly increasing the wait times for those of us with true emergency requirements (like an exploding appendix).

Not to mention the fact that that ocean is every bit as permeable as the southern border, and a whole lot harder to police. It isn't a signifcant barrier to illegal immigration, as substantial illegal Vietnamese, Chinese, etc. communities amply demonstrate.

Little hint for ya sparky, not all illegal immigrants are here to work. A whole lot of them are criminals, many of them violent criminals, and they don't become productive members of society as soon as they cross the border.

And as I've pointed out before, not all of them stay in the southern states. Eastern Washington has a huge illegal immigrant community, due to the large agriculture industry. Pretty typical thoughout the US.
 
MilwaukeeMike said:
Second, list one thing an illegal immigrant has done to you to cause you harm... Let me guess, you used to work at a winery picking grapes...
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1) While visiting Tucson Arizona last year my girlfriend got food poisoning from Jamba Juice and we went to the emergency room and they said the wait would be 14 hours. She was puking all over the place and getting terrible stomach cramps. We left. She toughed it out to our next vacation spot, LA. Luckily there was a clinic by LAX and we B.S.'ed our way in. The doctors were great. We got chatty with them and they said that two or three hospitals nearby had just closed because of the financial burden of free medical attention given to illegals, and that 14 hour waits were typical in cities close to the southern border.
 
steverino said:
1) While visiting Tucson Arizona last year my girlfriend got food poisoning from Jamba Juice and we went to the emergency room and they said the wait would be 14 hours. She was puking all over the place and getting terrible stomach cramps. She toughed it out and we flew on to our next vacation spot, LA. Luckily there was a clinic by LAX and we B.. The doctors were great. We got chatty with them and they said that two or three hospitals nearby had just closed because of the financial burden of free medical attention given to illegals, and that 14 hour waits were typical in cities close to the southern border.
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The Hospital my sister in law works in is cutting 100 jobs, partly to make up for five years sustained losses that (according to published reports from hospital) are driven by the federal mandate for ER to treat indigent, regardless of pay potential, and the immense number of indigent / uninsured, and flat out illegals in this area.

With luck, the hospital won't close down any time soon, but the problem of the Unfunded Federal Mandate is getting worse, not better.

DR
 
MilwaukeeMike said:
Second, list one thing an illegal immigrant has done to you to cause you harm... Let me guess, you used to work at a winery picking grapes...
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My friend is a postal clerk in Santa Maria, CA., and it is her duty to give out food stamps. Many go to illegals with bogus I.D.'s and stuff, according to her. I realize there are only 12 million or so illegals, so we can afford some scamming. I worry when there are 80 million here in a few years.
 
fishbob said:
Just curious -
In a hit and run, how do you know the citizenry status of the driver that ran off?
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You dont necessarily, but you can make a pretty good guess. I would be happy to take a scientiffically controlled test and see how accurate my determinations are

The second time I knew they were illegals because I caught one and pinned him to the ground till the cops got there. Perversely, because he was an illegal, the cop couldnt do anything to him and let him go, warning me that * I * could suffer some litigation for detaining him. Were he an american citizen the cop could have held him on hit and run
 
As undocumented migration into America has risen, violent crime has dramatically fallen. So I'm skeptical of statements like "Little hint for ya sparky, not all illegal immigrants are here to work. A whole lot of them are criminals, many of them violent criminals, and they don't become productive members of society as soon as they cross the border." It seems impropable that a large percentage of undocumented migrants are violent criminals.
 
Large scale illegal immigration (and legal as well, but that is a different debate) substantially increases the US population. Now, tell me about any problem that is not made worse by overpopulation. Traffic. Crime. Housing costs. Health care. Low level wages. Name one.

Conversely, name a problem that is not exacerbated by increasing population.

IMO, overpopulation is the worlds biggest problem. It is the most important problem for just about any nation, including the USA. But we in the USA cannot solve the world's problem without first solving our own.

Conclusion:
1) Do everything possible to reduce illegal immigration to the USA.
2) Do everything possible to reduce legal immigration to the USA.

Then, once we have demonstrated we are serious

3) Do everything possible to reduce population growth globally.
 
Dave1001 said:
As undocumented migration into America has risen, violent crime has dramatically fallen. So I'm skeptical of statements like "Little hint for ya sparky, not all illegal immigrants are here to work. A whole lot of them are criminals, many of them violent criminals, and they don't become productive members of society as soon as they cross the border." It seems impropable that a large percentage of undocumented migrants are violent criminals.
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correlation != causation

Here, our crime has gone up

Our $ per student has gone down

Our medical system is toast

Our unemployment has gone up

Our quality of life has gone down

YOU can have all the illegals you want, as long as YOU pay for them

Im tired of paying for them
 
SezMe said:
IMO, overpopulation is the worlds biggest problem. It is the most important problem for just about any nation, including the USA. But we in the USA cannot solve the world's problem without first solving our own.
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I agree, plus 1000
 
pipelineaudio said:
correlation != causation

Here, our crime has gone up

Our $ per student has gone down

Our medical system is toast

Our unemployment has gone up

Our quality of life has gone down

YOU can have all the illegals you want, as long as YOU pay for them

Im tired of paying for them
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The point correlation != causation cuts both ways and can be applied to these type of stats claims from those against undocumented migration.
 
Youre correct, but lets say education:

AZ is being fined 1 million dollars per day, for not being able to afford to pay a federal mandate to teach criminals in spanish. Thats just one example of how illegals are destroying the education system. Also they dont contribute to the taxes that it takes to fund schools

Our medical system? That is without argument due to the illegals

Unemployment? Again without question, the businesses are still going, those recently fired can go by the job sites and see the illegals picking up where the citizens left off

I suspect the other issues are quite related to these three factors
 
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