The US-Mexico Border Fence

[Pescado]

Has anybody used the R word at all in this thread?

Sure, illegal immigrants are criminals. So am I for a myriad of minor crimes I've committed through the years, like most other people. This doesn't make people looking for a better life into terrible people. As far as one crime equating to all other crimes, I think you really lost it there, Pipe. By that logic, jaywalkers are no better than rapists. I don't think you really believe that.

And come on now, you are calling a diverse population of 13million people in the United States, "incredible filth" and you really think that it is okay? It is offensive, and I'm sure most people can see why.

Illegal immigration from Mexico is a certainly a problem that needs to be addressed. However, taking the issue personally is folly, in my opinion. People can live a life that is better than anything they could have ever imagined in their home country by breaking a law that is rarely enforced. Even if it technically makes them criminals, do you really think they care? I know that I wouldn't.

 

[fishbob]

That's the "easy" solution. It's only failing is that it won't work, as long as the economic incentives for hiring illegals outweigh the disincentives.

Disincentives - long enough jail time and big enough fines.

I am inclined to consider some sort of disincentives for clients of companies that hire illegals. Something along the lines of throwing out low-bids from cheating contractors (when detected) and requiring contract awards to the lowest legitimate contractor. Lost productivity and messed up schedules on top of paying a fair price instead of a cheap price might be disincentive enough.

 

[fishbob]

If only it were so simple. I'm in the construction business, and there is a lot of pressure on prices, and this pressure comes from the customers. Give an estimate, and 95% of potential customers will pick the lowest estimate. For many, it comes down to hiring illegals or going out of business. Perhaps your "cheating scumwads" statement should also be directed at the customers of those who hire illegals...

See my previous post.
I am in complete agreement.

 

[fishbob]

And despite you're desire to go after the companies, and not the illegals, it is impossible to go after one w/o also going after the other. Because if you go after the companies, you put the illegals out of work.

Exactly. Supply and demand in action - no jobs for illegals, then maybe they go home.

 

[Renfield]

I think that, in order to be fair, and to eliminate any suspicion of bigotry on the part of the US, we should simply adopt Mexico's immigration laws as our own.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1721728/posts?page=7

Certainly Mexico's leaders and its people couldn't have a problem with that? They feel like they are not getting treated fairly - this is one solution that would be difficult to criticize.

 

[fishbob]

And I'm sure you and fishbob will feel the same when it comes time to find a contractor for that new kitchen.

I make a point to only take bids from people that I think are reputable.
In business and in my personal life. Receiving a a strangely low bid is a sure sign that the contractor made a mistake or is cutting corners. I don't want to have to pick up the pieces behind either scenario. Been there, done that, and in the long run, it costs you more.

 

[Pescado]

I agree that illegal immigration needs to be curtailed, and I am open to different options.

However, what happens when overnight 4% of the US population loses their livelihood because of hardline employment laws? Would they simply move right back to Mexico? Or would these people stay in the US, and choose to live in American poverty rather than Mexican poverty? I don't doubt that it would be effective in ending hiring of illegal immigrants, but would it be worth it in the hit that the country would take by having 13 million people who are permanantly unemployed? Also, would it be morally wrong to do this, and put families out on the street, because they did not follow proper procedure to enter the country? I would have a hard time with it, personally. I think many other Americans would as well. But if not for things like these, what else can we do to improve the situation? It's a catch 22.

I'm not trying to be cute, I am honestly looking for opinions here. What would logically happen if, hypothetically, new hardline laws restricting employment of illegal immigrants came into effect that actually worked? Seems like the cure might be worse than the affliction.

 

[Darth Rotor]

And I'm sure you and fishbob will feel the same when it comes time to find a contractor for that new kitchen.

I fired, and reported to INS, the contractor who bid on my roof job 4 years ago. When the work crew showed up, and the one guy (who I knew from a few odd jobs before) had with him 4 foreigners who did not speak English. I smelled a rat. So, I asked for their credentials. The foreman didn't have them. I called the man who ran the company. I met with him. I did not get what I asked for. We had a tense meeting that did not end all that well.

I wasn't sure if he'd try to sue for the value of the job that I had cancelled. He didn't.

That roof job ended up costing me just over $600 more, three months and two more bids later. Nothing good came of this, as my wife had this opinion of my going high and right on the topic: everyone else just does it and looks the other way. She wasn't happy with the higher cost, nor the longer wait.

DR

 

[Renfield]

Quick opinion:

1. It's all political.

2. If they wanna be here, they're gonna get here, fence or no fence.

Thanks for your time.

yeah, its so damn stupid. Fencing off a third of the border is about as effective as building a damn that spans a third of a river.

Someone will get a fat contract out of it though, and i guess the politicians will be able to say they are doing something.

 

[WildCat]

I fired, and reported to INS, the contractor who bid on my roof job 4 years ago. When the work crew showed up, and the one guy (who I knew from a few odd jobs before) had with him 4 foreigners who did not speak English. I smelled a rat. So, I asked for their credentials. The foreman didn't have them. I called the man who ran the company. I met with him. I did not get what I asked for. We had a tense meeting that did not end all that well.

I wasn't sure if he'd try to sue for the value of the job that I had cancelled. He didn't.

That roof job ended up costing me just over $600 more, three months and two more bids later. Nothing good came of this, as my wife had this opinion of my going high and right on the topic: everyone else just does it and looks the other way. She wasn't happy with the higher cost, nor the longer wait.

DR

In 20 years in the business, I've never encountered anyone who did what you did. 99% of people just pick the lowest bid, and it's worse now that so many plan on moving in a year or 2 anyway and so don't really give a damn about the quality of the job.

And it's even worse when your competitor not only hires illegals, but are also owned by illegals!

Time for me to get out of the business I think...

 

[Darth Rotor]

In 20 years in the business, I've never encountered anyone who did what you did. 99% of people just pick the lowest bid, and it's worse now that so many plan on moving in a year or 2 anyway and so don't really give a damn about the quality of the job.

And it's even worse when your competitor not only hires illegals, but are also owned by illegals!

Time for me to get out of the business I think...

It was a move that cost me both money, more leaks into the living room, and a whole lot of crap from my wife. I don't know if I have it in me to go through that again, given the strain that decision put on my marriage. I was in a stubborn mood at the time, over that and other things, so I did what I did.

No decision comes without consequences. That one cost me more in hate and discontent than it did in money, in the long term.

DR

 

[pipelineaudio]

Has anybody used the R word at all in this thread?

Yes, check post #9

This sis why no serious discussion can occur, some woo woo religious nut comes in and pollutes the whole thing (yes PC is a religion)

 

[Pescado]

Yes, check post #9

Ya, I see it now. I had actually seen it before, but when he used the phrase "evil neo cons" I couldn't take it seriously and assumed he was being facetious. Guess I was wrong...

In any case, care to respond to any of the other points I've made?

 

[pipelineaudio]

In 20 years in the business, I've never encountered anyone who did what you did. 99% of people just pick the lowest bid, and it's worse now that so many plan on moving in a year or 2 anyway and so don't really give a damn about the quality of the job.

And it's even worse when your competitor not only hires illegals, but are also owned by illegals!

Time for me to get out of the business I think...

There are some "safe" bets. But its driving the economy in WEIRD directions. I'll give one example I encounter a lot: auto machine shops

General machine shops here have taken to hiring illegals for the brunt of the work. Since this is a non union state, the mechanics who lose their jobs leave or turn to who knows what to make money. Of course its SO MUCH BETTER that a *illegal mexican* feeds his family than an american because *illegal mexicans* are a superior race who is above the law according to some in this thread, but I digress

There is a sizeable hot rod community here and they will NOT take their cars to be worked on by illegals. A hot rodder/engine builder relationship is built on years of trust, even highly credentialed noobs to the scene have a hard time getting this sort of work.

Of course, the legal machine shop cannot keep his brick and mortar and compete against illegal mexicans for general machine work, so we move on to another paradigm that is related to this crime:

The shop owner cans all his workers and moves his shop to home.

Youll see this here in AZ, where nearly all of the super builders have set up shop in their own garages and only do specialty engines. Of course this isnt the only business this happens to, but it sucks when you wonder how the next generation of machinists are going to learn their trade.

 

[Renfield]

What annoys me is that there is so little consistency in how we handle all this. Why even bother with green cards if you let people who sneak into this country illegaly go to schools, take out government subsidized loans, etc. According to the supreme court, they shouldn't be entering the country illegaly, but once they do they have an actual right to go to American schools, and the school has to pay for translators and ESL teachers. Strange. In Mexico, if you're in the country illegaly, they really do treat you like a criminal, even if you haven't done anything else. Ok, since they did break the law I can understand that. Yet they want their people treated differently here in the US. None of it makes sense to me.

And what good is building a fence or putting more guards at the boarder going to do? As long as they have a motive to get across, they'll find a way.

 

[pipelineaudio]

However, what happens when overnight 4% of the US population loses their livelihood because of hardline employment laws? Would they simply move right back to Mexico?

Hopefully they wouldnt move back to mexico, hopefully they would be SENT back to mexico

Dont do the CRIME if you cant do the time

I don't doubt that it would be effective in ending hiring of illegal immigrants, but would it be worth it in the hit that the country would take by having 13 million people who are permanantly unemployed?

Have you heard Arizona has being fined one million dollars per day, for not having enough ESL (ESL means SPANISH, not any other language, just spanish) teachers?

I REALLY think we can afford to do without that.

Have you seen the decimation our health care system has taken, paying for criminals?

Those two costs, all by themselves would CERTAINLY put our economy back on track.

But hey, lets replace those workers, with legal ones and all of a sudden we have money going back into our economy!

Awesome!

Any numbers game you try to play in favor of keeping criminals in the country, you will lose

Also, would it be morally wrong to do this, and put families out on the street, because they did not follow proper procedure to enter the country?

So would it be morally wrong to put me in jail for me stealing your car, simply because I didnt follow the procedure of asking you first?

If we are going to selectively enforce laws, lets just not enforce any laws

I would have a hard time with it, personally. I think many other Americans would as well. But if not for things like these, what else can we do to improve the situation? It's a catch 22.

Thats the HARD truth. Americans are generous, and its a bitter pill to swallow.

But in this case, at least for Arizona, we have reached the breaking point. They are turning this once prosperous state into the slum they left behind. All the money is flowing OUT of the state and precious little coming in

The rest of the USA loves to belittle us and enjoys the cheap goods we make here, but WE

US

Right here in AZ are suffering for it

 

[BPSCG]

And what good is building a fence or putting more guards at the boarder going to do? As long as they have a motive to get across, they'll find a way.

People here keep talking like there's only one solution. Put up a fence, or prosecute employers who hire illegals, or arrest and deport illegals, or put pressure on Mexico.

And of course, every one of those solutions has its own shortcomings and raises its own problems. Why not do all of them?

Do I hear any objections?

 

[Pescado]

Pipelineaudio, it seems as if you are sniping at me in your post to WildCat. I don't think anybody in this thread has stated that Mexicans are a superior race to Americans, and I certainly haven't. Your claim is a strawman.

I raised the very real question of what happens when, over night, 13 million people in this country, who are concentrated in just a few states, are still here but are no longer allowed to work? It's a legitimate question. I'm not making any moral judgements about the issue, and the question is not rhetorical.

It would have been much easier to solve this problem thirty years ago than it is today, but we didn't, and now we have to face a much more complicated situation than we did before. I'm sure it feels right to get emotional about the issue rather than facing it logically, but that won't really do us much good now, will it? That is an especially serious offense in a skeptic's forum. We have to be realistic about the situation, and find a solution to this problem that won't create other problems that might actually be worse than the one we are trying to solve. I am not saying that making it a serious crime to hire illegal immigrants might not solve the problem, maybe it will, I really don't know. However, there would certainly be other effects of this law as well, things that also need to be examined before any such law would be put into place. Simply pretending that there wouldn't be other consequences of doing something that might feel right to some people who are emotionally invested in the issue won't do anybody any good.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Pipelineaudio, it seems as if you are sniping at me in your post to WildCat. I don't think anybody in this thread has stated that Mexicans are a superior race to Americans, and I certainly haven't. Your claim is a strawman.

First of all its not directed at you.

I assure you this is NOT a strawman!!! It is a tennet of PC religion that illegal mexicans are to be treated in every way better than legals in general and whites in particular

ANY evidence to the contrary would be most welcomed

but lets look at what * I * said and what * YOU * claim to attribute to me

I said "Of course its SO MUCH BETTER that a *illegal mexican* feeds his family than an american because *illegal mexicans* are a superior race who is above the law according to some in this thread, but I digress"

You said "mexican"

Note YOU are missing the illegal part

YOU are commiting the same obfuscation that PC liars do when they claim immigration and ILLEGAL immigration are the same thing

YOU are being purposely disingenous and putting words in my mouth or ascribing attitudes about me, DECIETFULLY that I havent

Anyone with half a brain knows Arizonans are in a large part mexicans (even if only in the culture we keep)

We are PROUD of that, take a look at our styles and out architecture, our names

We are NOT proud of being host to criminals

 

[Pescado]

Hopefully they wouldnt move back to mexico, hopefully they would be SENT back to mexico

I'm not sure it's possible to deport 4% of the population of the United States, so that would be a non-starter.

Have you heard Arizona has being fined one million dollars per day, for not having enough ESL (ESL means SPANISH, not any other language, just spanish) teachers?
I REALLY think we can afford to do without that.

ESL actually means English as a Second Language. I know because my girlfriend works with it. The goal of ESL, by the way, is not to seperately teach in Spanish, but to teach students English. Putting a student into a classroom where they don't understand the language doesn't do much good. Also, ESL is not only Spanish. ESL is for students of all languages who are trying to learn English. However, I do see your point, because the vast majority of students in ESL are Spanish speakers in my area, and I am sure it is the same other there in Arizona. In any case, would you rather just not allow these kids, who ARE HERE whether you like it or not, into American schools? Do you really think that could make things better?

Have you seen the decimation our health care system has taken, paying for criminals?

No, I haven't. Could you please provide some numbers on that? Sources aren't necessary if you can tell me off of the top of your head what you recall of it. I honestly don't have any clue what the numbers are.

Those two costs, all by themselves would CERTAINLY put our economy back on track.

Whose economy are you referring to? It is not as if 13 million people will disappear, and the strain will be gone. 13 million people will lose their jobs, and the strain will still exist, since they will still be using those services. Seems like it would be worse for the economy to me.

Any numbers game you try to play in favor of keeping criminals in the country, you will lose

What about a numbers game where illegal immigrants all lose their jobs, and it is not possible to deport them all back to Mexico?

So would it be morally wrong to put me in jail for me stealing your car, simply because I didnt follow the procedure of asking you first?

Come on, I already addressed this in a previous post. These crimes are not equal. How do you plan on imprisoning 13 million people, anyway?

The rest of the USA loves to belittle us and enjoys the cheap goods we make here, but WE US Right here in AZ are suffering for it

I don't argue that illegal immigration isn't a problem that needs to be addressed. I just don't think that we can take an action against 4% of the US population without serious consideration given beforehand. Just because you have strong emotional attachment to an issue doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at from all perspectives, from a logical point of view.