The US-Mexico Border Fence

pipelineaudio said:
First of all its not directed at you.

I assure you this is NOT a strawman!!! It is a tennet of PC religion that illegal mexicans are to be treated in every way better than legals in general and whites in particular

ANY evidence to the contrary would be most welcomed

but lets look at what * I * said and what * YOU * claim to attribute to me

I said "Of course its SO MUCH BETTER that a *illegal mexican* feeds his family than an american because *illegal mexicans* are a superior race who is above the law according to some in this thread, but I digress"

You said "mexican"

Note YOU are missing the illegal part

YOU are commiting the same obfuscation that PC liars do when they claim immigration and ILLEGAL immigration are the same thing

YOU are being purposely disingenous and putting words in my mouth or ascribing attitudes about me, DECIETFULLY that I havent

Anyone with half a brain knows Arizonans are in a large part mexicans (even if only in the culture we keep)

We are PROUD of that, take a look at our styles and out architecture, our names

We are NOT proud of being host to criminals
Click to expand...


Okay, let me rephrase. I don't think anybody in this thread has said that ILLEGAL MEXICANS are a superior race to Americans. It's still a strawman. As far as me presenting evidence to the contrary is concerned, I really think it would be better if you would rather present evidence in favor of your opinion, since that is how these things usually go.

I'm not obfuscating a thing. You used the word "race" and I used the word "Mexican" to refer to what you said. I wasn't aware that "illegal Mexicans" are of a different race than "legal Mexicans". If this was interpreted differently than I meant it, then I apologize.

Honestly though, I am losing interest in this topic as you don't seem to want to discuss the issue and possible remedies for it as much as you seem to want to vent your anger and argue from emotion. I'd appreciate it if you would take a minute to catch your breath and count to 10, and then come back to discuss this with less emotion.
 
ESL, in practice means ONLY spanish, again it shows how PC puts illegal mexicans as a superior race, since it is VERY telling they expect asian students to just do immersion instead of ESL

Regarding your 4% population getting unemployed you are making the GREVIOUS error that they are all emplyed, MANY are just sponges. These are criminals after all. Cases of illegal mexicans drawing welfare from multiple stolen identities dont even make the news any more as they are so commonplace

http://www.asu.edu/copp/morrison/honorment.htm (from a PC site )

http://www.vdare.com/guzzardi/health_care.htm (right wing site)

http://www.stateline.org/live/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=136&languageId=1&contentId=51473 (in case any PC guys doubt it is in large part our legal resident hispanic population who wants these criminals stopped)
 
Indeed, ESL in practice means mostly Spanish, since most students who don't speak English in our schools speak Spanish. However, speaking from personal experience, let me assure you that Asians are indeed put into the ESL program and not simply thrown into a classroom and expected to magically understand.

As far as your other point, about the entire population of illegal immigrant Mexicans in the US being employed, of course they aren't all employed. I agree that there are assuredly sponges, like in any other population. However, almost every illegal immigrant that I know works their butt off and in general, Mexicans are very hard workers who like money very much, and like to show off money even more. Consider it a cultural incentive to work hard.

Just for arguements sake, let's say that 25% of the 13 million are unemployed, which is a much larger number than probably actually exists. So ~8 million people, nearly 3% of the US population, lose their livelihood instead of 4%. That's still quite a large number that needs closer examination.

Also, you didn't address whether it would be possible to actually imprison or deport all of these people. If it isn't possible, what would happen then if these people all lost their jobs and stayed put?

Maybe it would be possible to stem illegal immigration with these types of activities and make it worth while for the US, but it certainly isn't as cut and dried as it might seem at first glance. It's a very complicated issue, and in my opinion treating it as a simple issue with a simple solution is erroneous.
 
Everyone on here says they are for this, or complains against that. But when you are living in the largest economy in the world, strongest power in the world--- what ever else... You are going to always have to deal with this... Fences aren’t going to work; we know politicians aren’t going to work; very little chance Mexico is going to change anytime soon; employers and companies aren't going to give up cheap labor ;and I bet most people in this forum are going to do little more than complain that it's either too unfair, strict, illegal, and so on... If any of you truly are interested or care about this topic to the point of some people's tones on this forum go join the Minute Men, ACLU, or any other group about this issue, and stop pretending like your complaining stands for anything more than a "arm chair activist/protestor" Try running for Congress... Until then stop complaining about this issue...(I don’t ever claim to be party to any of these groups, I am just sick and tired of all this false discourse on a topic that has no single solution or end in sight) I mean, are you guys that pissed off you cant pick crops for a dollar a day now because of all the Mexicans here... Please... And don't use the terrorist excuse, 9/11 didn't happen because of the border issue... WE LET THEM IN LEGALLY!!! So with the exception of people in border states that deal with this everyday... **** the **** up please....


Thank You
 
pipelineaudio said:
I dont know if it costs america as a whole, more to pay for the criminals than we save from them, but for 100% sure, those of us in the border states are devastated for having to pay for them.
Click to expand...

As a whole, it definitely costs more money. They don't pay taxes on their income, and are disproportionate users of social benefits systems.

Some have made the claim that they're beneficial to the economy, since they spend the money they earn, and their labour results in lower prices. The latter is certainly true, but whether that's a benefit is arguable. Particularly in light of the fact that the former is wrong. While they do spend income locally, a substantial proportion is removed from the local community and transferred to Mexico.

So while their impact on the national economy may be insignificant, or even marginally beneficial; their impact on local economies is strongly negative.

However, I don't believe that the solution is to put up fences. The solution is a dramatic restructuring of social benefits regulations and immigration laws. Fewer and more stringent requirements for the former, and substantial loosening up of the latter.
 
Pescado said:
In my (quite extensive) experience, the vast majority of illegal Mexican immigrants are kind, upstanding, family-oriented, hard-working people that I can honestly relate to better than many upper-middle or upper class fellow Americans.?
Click to expand...
Some are, yes. I'll even accept that a substantial majority are. But that doesn't invalidate the fact that a disproportionately huge percentage are criminals in ways other than just illegal immigration; many of them violent criminals. Illegal immigration from Mexico is one of the largest routes for the importation of illegal drugs, particularly heroin and cocaine. Violent crime is also higher in the regions with large populations of illegal immigrants.

Just like more honest Mexican workers find that they can make more money by slipping across the border into the US, Mexican criminals also find more opportunity through illegal immigration.
Indeed, ESL in practice means mostly Spanish, since most students who don't speak English in our schools speak Spanish. However, speaking from personal experience, let me assure you that Asians are indeed put into the ESL program and not simply thrown into a classroom and expected to magically understand.
Click to expand...
Around the southern border states ESL instruction is for primarily Hispanics. Up in the northwest, it's predominantly Asians and north Africans. Few Hispanics.
 
MilwaukeeMike said:
So with the exception of people in border states that deal with this everyday... **** the **** up please....
Click to expand...

I would strongly suggest that you shut the h3ll up yourself, until you know what you're talking about. It's not simply the southern border states that deal with illegal immigrants. A huge number of them migrate up to the agricultural communities of the Pacific Northwest, as well as other regions of the US north of California, New Mexico, Arizona, and Texas.. On top of that, on the west coast we also have a major problem with illegal Asian immigrants, something that a fence simply isn't going to solve.
 
luchog said:
Some are, yes. I'll even accept that a substantial majority are. But that doesn't invalidate the fact that a disproportionately huge percentage are criminals in ways other than just illegal immigration; many of them violent criminals. Illegal immigration from Mexico is one of the largest routes for the importation of illegal drugs, particularly heroin and cocaine. Violent crime is also higher in the regions with large populations of illegal immigrants.

Just like more honest Mexican workers find that they can make more money by slipping across the border into the US, Mexican criminals also find more opportunity through illegal immigration.
Click to expand...
Except for the part about 'disproportionately huge' amout of illegal immigrants being criminals, which we haven't seen any evidence presented for, I completely agree with you. That's one of the major reasons why we need to blunt the flow of illegal immigrants into the US, in my opinion. The question is how to do that, though. That's where it gets tricky.

Around the southern border states ESL instruction is for primarily Hispanics. Up in the northwest, it's predominantly Asians and north Africans. Few Hispanics.
Click to expand...
Yeah, sorry, I should have clarified that. I was referring to the ESL programs that myself and Pipeline are probably familiar with, since we are both from the southwest. ESL is absolutely not only Spanish, as you say. It just appears to be so to some people who only see Spanish-based ESL because of their environment, and are biased in this regard.
 
Last edited:
Pescado said:
Except for the part about 'disproportionately huge' amout of illegal immigrants being criminals, which we haven't seen any evidence presented for, I completely agree with you.
Click to expand...

Im not sure where the trouble is, theyre ALL criminals

ALL ILLEGAL immigrants are CRIMINALS

in order to stay here they have to perform more criminal acts.

car insurance? hello...normally this would be anectdotal evidence but the number of people who have been victimized by hit and split illegals is too much for just anectdotal
 
The way I like to ask about this, since this is the way I see it, is "Why does the US prefer illegal immigration to legal immigration?" I mean, for every illegal immigrant there are lots of people that would be happy to come to the US legally and work just as hard or harder than the illegals, not to mention that 99% of the illegals would be happy to come legally too. So, considering the US can get all the legal labor it wants, why does it take illegal labor instead?

Is it simply not feasible to stop all the illegals? If so, that's kinda scary since in addition to a lot of foreigners wanting to come to the US and work, there are a lot of other foreigners wanting to come to the US and destroy. Or is it businesses that want to hire illegals? If so it seems that if a "hire legals only" rule were enforced for everyone then businesses would be happy since they wouldn't have a competitive disadvantage. Or maybe the idea is that even if they don't have a competitive disadvantage, if it increases busniess costs for everyone then it still hurts business for everyone.

I don't know but I just wish the debate were framed as "The US prefers illegal immigrants to legal ones" because that seems to me what it comes down to in the end.
 
BPSCG said:
People here keep talking like there's only one solution. Put up a fence, or prosecute employers who hire illegals, or arrest and deport illegals, or put pressure on Mexico.

And of course, every one of those solutions has its own shortcomings and raises its own problems. Why not do all of them?

Do I hear any objections?
Click to expand...

Yes, I object. As a white collar laborer and a capitalist, I want blue collar labor to get less expensive, not more expensive, in America. I object.
 
BPSCG said:
People here keep talking like there's only one solution. Put up a fence, or prosecute employers who hire illegals, or arrest and deport illegals, or put pressure on Mexico.

And of course, every one of those solutions has its own shortcomings and raises its own problems. Why not do all of them?

Do I hear any objections?
Click to expand...
No. And in the later parts of the discussion, I did not get the impression that anyone was talking about a single course of action. Although the early part of the thread did focus on the illegals and ignored the other factors - which makes sense because a fence will not reduce the number of scumwad employers.
 
well, what happens if a white politician says something about mexicans, illegal or not without fawning on them?

Now what happens if a hispanic media figure/politician/whatever says something untoward about "middle america/red state/conservative/pejorative word" ?
 
I think I do have a solution for all of this

Lets send our entire prison population to mexico and see how they like dealing with OUR criminals!

Or better yet, just send the Carnies
 
pipelineaudio said:
I think I do have a solution for all of this

Lets send our entire prison population to mexico and see how they like dealing with OUR criminals!

Or better yet, just send the Carnies
Click to expand...

An unworkable nutbar solution is not a solution.
I prefer BPSCGSSG's combined approach idea.
 
pipelineaudio said:
well, what happens if a white politician says something about mexicans, illegal or not without fawning on them?

Now what happens if a hispanic media figure/politician/whatever says something untoward about "middle america/red state/conservative/pejorative word" ?
Click to expand...

How is this threatening to white people? Doesn't anyone else notice that white people run Mexico too? All of Latin America for that matter.
 
fishbob said:
An unworkable nutbar solution is not a solution.
I prefer BPSCGSSG's combined approach idea.
Click to expand...

Surely the unworkable nutbar solution would do better than what we are doing now..at least it would save us some money. Im pretty sure the prisoners would agree to it too
 
pipelineaudio said:
Surely the unworkable nutbar solution would do better than what we are doing now..at least it would save us some money. Im pretty sure the prisoners would agree to it too
Click to expand...

If you are saying that our current system is a unworkable and nutbarish, I will not disagree.

You can not save money trying to implement an unworkable solution.
Wait - you can not save money by having politicians implement an unworkable solution.
 
Couple of questions:
Why the hell are we putting a 700 mile fence along a 2100 mile border?
Who's going to build it?
Who's going to man it?


It seems like a WOMBAT to me, and for those of you not up on your initials..

Waste
Of
Money
Brains
And
Time


I find the fence to be useless. But I do think we need to make sure the immigration happening is legal. Unfortunately, we're just not willing to make the choices and sacrifices to do something about it. The border needs to be manned, not fenced.

For The Record, I have no problem with immigration. I have huge problems with illegal immigration.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom