The United States is Not A Democracy

[linusrichard]

An epic trainwreck from the OP.

True. "The US is not a democracy" is one of those phrases that is a red flag for me. Kind of like when someone says "Democrat party" or "evolutionist" or "I'm not racist, but..." Whether fair or not, whenever I hear these phrases I automatically take the person less seriously.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Israel doesn't. Britain doesn't.

I hate this. I really hate this. I had a massive argument with a friend once who insisted that the UK has no constitution. In the end I agreed to an incorrect middle ground just to stop him whining.

YES the UK has a constitution. NO it isn't a single codified document but rather a whole series of such (including the Human Rights Convention and various other pieces of EU law) and a number of unwritten rules.

For example, nowhere is the role of Prime Minister actually described, Gordon Brown runs our country simply because it's been that way for a while. The original "PM" was actually appointed by King George the First because he was an MP who could speak German and thus tell the King what was going on. He had no special powers, nor was he the leader of the country, hence the "first among equals" concept of the role.

Does this mean we have no constitution? No, of couse not. Thanks to the USA most people, even those who are otherwise perfectly knowledgable about politics, have this notion that unless you have a single document that calls itself the constitution your country doesn't have one. This is simply not true and I wish people wouldn't keep insisting it is.

Since I'm on a rant already, and in order to reply to yet another laughable Bill Thompson thread, the USA is a LIBERAL DEMOCRACY. Specifically a fedralist one. There is no direct democracy in the world. The closest is Switzerland, which can force referendums which change policy rather than influencing it.

 

[The Don]

What MarkCorrigan said....

There's a huge pile of dusty documents in the Palace of Westminster dating back almost 800 years. That's the UK constitution.

 

[Darth Rotor]

What MarkCorrigan said....

There's a huge pile of dusty documents in the Palace of Westminster dating back almost 800 years. That's the UK constitution.

The Brits muddle through, in government not the least.

 

[psychictv]

Israel doesn't. Britain doesn't.

Sure, in the same sense that the U.S. isn't a democracy, i.e. if you only define the term in the most narrow possible way.

constitution - 8. the system of fundamental principles according to which a nation, state, corporation, or the like, is governed.

1 : the basic principles and laws of a nation, state, or social group that determine the powers and duties of the government and guarantee certain rights to the people in it

NOTE: A constitution was originally simply a law, ordinance, or decree usually made by a king, emperor, or other superior authority. A constitution now usually contains the fundamental law and principles with which all other laws must conform. Unlike the U.S. Constitution, the British Constitution is not set down in a comprehensive document, but is found in a variety of statutes (as the Magna Carta) and in common law.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/constitution

 

[drkitten]

And to be specific, it's a type of democracy.

Not necessarily. The term "republic" has also been used for oligarchies (e.g., the First French Republic under the Directory), the Roman Republic, or South African under apartheid. Essentially, a republic can also describe a situation where there is no monarch, but the state control is in the hands of a small enough group of people that the word "democracy" cannot be reasonable held to apply. In the case of the Directory, the enabling law established that only long-term revolutionaries and regicides could become directors. In the case of Rome, membership in the Senate was essentially hereditary, and of course, voting rights were restricted to the white minority in South Africa.

 

[daenku32]

Being a democracy means you can vote. Simple as that.

 

[Thunder]

Apartheid South Africa was indeed a democracy.

a very ****** one, but still...a democracy.

 

[Pardalis]

Being a democracy means you can vote. Simple as that.

Not sure about that, a few countries allow people to vote, but there's only one party on the ballot (Iraq before 2005 for example).

 

[Elizabeth I]

the UK is a constitutional monarchy. the King or Queen is the ceremonial head of state, and shares power with the PM and Parliament.

I thought they just pretended that the monarch still has any power?

 

[PogoPedant]

PZ Myers provided, well ahead of this discussion, what may be an apropos quotation from Isaac Asimov:



If someone claims the United States is an hereditary monarchy, that person is wrong. If someone claims the United States is a pure democracy, that is also wrong. But if Bill Thompson thinks that thinking the United States is a pure democracy is just as wrong as thinking the United States is an hereditary monarchy, then his view is wronger than both of them put together.

I love that essay. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm

 

[Thunder]

if the USA is not a democracy, they why do we vote for President and Congress?

the right to vote for your representatives is something ONLY a democracy has.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Apartheid South Africa was indeed a democracy.

a very ****** one, but still...a democracy.

Then it's good America "isn't one," isn't it?

 

[drkitten]

Apartheid South Africa was indeed a democracy.

a very ****** one, but still...a democracy.

How small does the electorate need to be before it stops being a democracy, then? Where does democracy start and oligarchy begin?

 

[Puppycow]

This is a silly semantic nontroversy. I've heard people insist on this point, but who cares? "A rose by any other name. . ."

Is this a Republican talking point? If we say that the US is a republic rather than a democracy, doe that imply that patriotic Americans should support the Republican party rather than the Democratic party? If we call America a democracy does that imply the opposite?

 

[Architect]

What MarkCorrigan said....

There's a huge pile of dusty documents in the Palace of Westminster dating back almost 800 years. That's the UK constitution.

You might want to check when the UK was formed there, or alternatively qualify the statement a little more.

 

[Lensman]

The provisions in the Magna Carta (1215) carried on through the Acts of Union (1707).

Did the US Constitution suddenly become meaningless after the Louisiana Purchase?

 

[Architect]

Yes, well done, now have a wee think about what happened to the Scottish constitutional arrangements. Did we forget about these too?

The correct form should have been something along the lines of "800 years of documents mouldering in boxes in London and in Edinburgh".

 

[gnome]

I'll take a different tack... let's say I capitulate entirely with the "Not a Democracy, but a Republic" meme and agree the generic term "Democracy" is imprecise. What argument does that point support? Can anyone supporting this distinction tell me where they want to go with that point besides pedantry?

 

[drkitten]

I'll take a different tack... let's say I capitulate entirely with the "Not a Democracy, but a Republic" meme and agree the generic term "Democracy" is imprecise. What argument does that point support? Can anyone supporting this distinction tell me where they want to go with that point besides pedantry?

It generally becomes an argument over mob rule in some way or another. Either the representative structure of the United States is the only thing that keeps the howling mobs from running rampant over the fundamental human rights of a small group, or else the same representative structure is unfairly limiting the rights of the majority to structure society as it sees fit.

Usually both at once, in fact. But the idea is that if we were a "democracy" (by which read, a direct democracy without a constitution or a representative structure) we could establish whatever policy is under discussion without that pesky Bill of Rights getting in the way.