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The Turin Shroud: The Image of Edessa created in c. 300-400 AD?

Well, here are 4 images I would offer to back up the 'unconventional' position that the body image of the Shroud is not 'homogeneous' as claimed but particulate, maybe degraded remnants of a coating that has either flaked off with age and handling, or maybe washed off..

(snip)

An interesting step one. And the images do seem to show something where you point it out.

And I think it's quite possible that your process might well be something akin to the actual process used to create the shroud. I'm fairly impressed.

But as far as providing evidence for particulate matter on the shroud, we don't know what's in those images to begin with, that's what we're trying to find out. In order to test your image tool, you need known images. You need known images both with and without the features you're trying to prove (or at least provide evidence for) and see how the tools handles them.

On preview I see that both JayUtah and Abaddon have replied with more detail and knowledge than I have on the subject.
 
Okay, good, let's step away from image analysis for a while.

Why is the Jesus figure so anatomically incorrect if it's a direct transfer? It would have been easiest, quickest and most accurate to make a flour print of an actual human being, living or dead. But the image on the Shroud does not appear to conform to what a transfer of a real human being onto linen would look like.
Are you suggesting they used a badly carved statue to create the print from? Do you believe that the image is anatomically correct after all, do you have other ideas?

Here's there result of a test of the flour-imprinting technology using a fully 3D "subject" - plastic figurine - approx half full adult size.

dsc03582.jpg


Everything below the head imprinted well, without the dreaded "lateral (wrap-around) distortion", for the simple reason that the linen was not allowed to contact the sides - as per Shroud!

Incidentally, that's the unwashed imprint closest to the figurine, the washed half with scarcely visible imprint further away.

But it's difficult to get an imprint of the head and face without creases or distortion - mainly on account of that pesky feature called the nose. But look at the Shroud image of the face, with that severe mask-like appearance, with sharp cut-offs at the cheekbones, together with that big gap between cheeks and hair. I agree with Prof Luigi Garlaschelli - a bas relief carving or moulding was used for the head, probably with snub nose. But one or more real people were used for the rest, who didn't object to being smeared with oil, sprinkled with flour, and covered with wet linen.

(The oil helps flour stick to the skin and assists colour development in the oven).
 
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Well, here are 4 images I would offer to back up the 'unconventional' position that the body image of the Shroud is not 'homogeneous' as claimed but particulate, maybe degraded remnants of a coating that has either flaked off with age and handling, or maybe washed off..
[qimg]https://shroudofturinwithoutallthehype.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/epsilon-compare-as-is-with-7100-15-plus-minus-zeke.png?w=640[/qimg]
Fine. I will fool with that when I have time, but...


Top left (A) is the image we are allowed to see via Shroud Scope which I maintain has been robbed of its contrast, but particulate material is arguably just visible. B (bottom left) is the same after applying Zeke in Windows 10, and the body image now starts to look like a degraded coating with a few remaining flecks, not dissimilar for the degraded blood see epsilon motif top left and the hair-blood top right).
...where did A come from? What is it's provenance? You claim it is from shroud scope. What exactly happened between shroud scope and you?

You claim B is post Zeke, but have no idea what Zeke did or did not do.

Is it just the 'laughable' kid's toy Zeke that reveals the particulate nature? No. See C, top right, where the Shroud Scope image has been given added contrast using altered settings for Brightness/Contrast/Midtone setting in MS Office Picture Manager. Again, one starts to see the evidence for a particulate nature, which is further improved by applying Zeke (D) bottom right.
The plot thickens. C, according to you, is simply more Zeke, and D is after Office picture manager. Nobody can replicate that because you simply cannot tell anyone what you did, with what and to what end and purpose.

None of this is original. Raymond Rogers was saying the same back in the 80s and 90s, namely that the Shroud image was not on the linen fibres per se, but a coating (allegedly "starch" or "starch fractions" deployed he said in 1st century linen manufacture ). Moreover he said that the chromophore was Maillard-reaction derived melanoidins, with which I agree 100%.
Great. What did he say about MS Office Picture manager and Zeke? Nothing. Congrats on throwing a total red herring.

My model is very very similar, except that the coating was white flour, not starch, and the flour itself provided all the ingredients needed for Maillard-generated melanoidins, providing there was a high-temperature step for colour development which Rogers did not think was necessary.
And....what? Could it be that you have discovered how the ToS was made? Possibly. I'm not yet convinced, but I do not reject your proposed mechanism. It does have some issues, however.

Note the Zeke is only needed to accentuate what is already visible, albeit faintly, obscured by background, and is simply backing up what had previously been seen with a different contrast-enhancing tool.
Zeke does not do that. It does not matter in the slightest what you claim, nor that I consider your proposed mechanism at least plausible. Zeke not only gives you nothing, it steals your credibility. Take the implausible posture, for example. You are attempting to explain that by means of a Stretch Armstrong doll. It is the very same thing. In the same effort, you are alienating those who might have said "Hmm. This seems possible" And forcing them to go "Hmm. this is nuts."

I hold myself in that contingent. At first i thought that this idea might have legs, but for reasons unknown, you veered off into somewhere very odd indeed.

I regard the surviving particles as "smoking gun" evidence for an imprinting mechanism that deployed an added ingredient or coating.
Regard them however you like. You ain't Zekeing your way to them.

Why are there no decent high-resolution pictures of the Shroud body image in the public domain?
Well that's simple. It suits the RCC to maintain the imaginary mystery. How do you think the Curia would react to a two stage baking process? (no offence to you, but that is the reaction you can expect)

Why are investigators forced to rely on off-the-shelf contrast-enhancement tools to see what's really there or not?
Because they have a vested interest in prolonging that.

Think "need to know" principle, allied with unending agenda-driven pro-authenticity propaganda.
Do you think you need to know? Or are you allowing the RCC to tell you what you need to know? Limiting your data and whatnot?
 
Here's there result of a test of the flour-imprinting technology using a fully 3D "subject" - plastic figurine - approx half full adult size.

[qimg]https://shroudofturinwithoutallthehype.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/dsc03582.jpg?w=544[/qimg]

Everything below the head imprinted well, without the dreaded "lateral (wrap-around) distortion", for the simple reason that the linen was not allowed to contact the sides - as per Shroud!

Incidentally, that's the unwashed imprint closest to the figurine, the washed half with scarcely visible imprint further away.

But it's difficult to get an imprint of the head and face without creases or distortion - mainly on account of that pesky feature called the nose. But look at the Shroud image of the face, with that severe mask-like appearance, with sharp cut-offs at the cheekbones, together with that big gap between cheeks and hair. I agree with Prof Luigi Garlaschelli - a bas relief carving or moulding was used for the head, probably with snub nose. But one or more real people were used for the rest, who didn't object to being smeared with oil, sprinkled with flour, and covered with wet linen.

(The oil helps flour stick to the skin and assists colour development in the oven).

Well, how is Jesus H. Christ in corpse form comparable to a toy?
 
Here's there result of a test of the flour-imprinting technology using a fully 3D "subject" - plastic figurine - approx half full adult size.

[qimg]https://shroudofturinwithoutallthehype.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/dsc03582.jpg?w=544[/qimg]

Everything below the head imprinted well, without the dreaded "lateral (wrap-around) distortion", for the simple reason that the linen was not allowed to contact the sides - as per Shroud!

Incidentally, that's the unwashed imprint closest to the figurine, the washed half with scarcely visible imprint further away.

But it's difficult to get an imprint of the head and face without creases or distortion - mainly on account of that pesky feature called the nose. But look at the Shroud image of the face, with that severe mask-like appearance, with sharp cut-offs at the cheekbones, together with that big gap between cheeks and hair. I agree with Prof Luigi Garlaschelli - a bas relief carving or moulding was used for the head, probably with snub nose. But one or more real people were used for the rest, who didn't object to being smeared with oil, sprinkled with flour, and covered with wet linen.

(The oil helps flour stick to the skin and assists colour development in the oven).
Too late. You had quite a few of us willing to at the very least entertain the idea.

Then you took a massive dump over everyone.

Now you get to deal with the fallout.

Your rep is tarnished beyond retrieval. As you so chose.
 
Remove the linen with the yellow/brown imprint of your hand, then wash vigorously with soap and water to be left with a faint fuzzy image. It will be tone-reversed (i.e. a "negative"), it will respond to 3D-rendering software, e.g. ImageJ, it will be bleachable (ordinary domestic bleach will do). The fibres under the microscope will show preferential coloration of the most superficial parts of the weave ("crowns") , and show the 'half-tone' effect, discontinuities etc.


Have you viewed your imprints under a microscope? What did you see? Did you take any photomicrographs? If so, can you post them with the parameters you used?
 
Okay, good, let's step away from image analysis for a while.

Why is the Jesus figure so anatomically incorrect if it's a direct transfer? It would have been easiest, quickest and most accurate to make a flour print of an actual human being, living or dead. But the image on the Shroud does not appear to conform to what a transfer of a real human being onto linen would look like.
Are you suggesting they used a badly carved statue to create the print from? Do you believe that the image is anatomically correct after all, do you have other ideas?


In his defense, mecannoman has previously presented a plausible explanation (alliteration accidental) for the image on the shroud . His 10th hypothesis regarding flour, oil, and heat is not far-fetched, but it is hard to falsify based on the limited access to the shroud.

OTOH, This zeke image processing stuff isn't getting him anywhere with me. It seems a waste of time until shroud samples of known provenance become available.
 
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Have you viewed your imprints under a microscope? What did you see? Did you take any photomicrographs? If so, can you post them with the parameters you used?

Yes, I posted some a while ago. Here's a typical example of the stained fibres that remain after washing an oven-roasted flour imprint (hand, plastic or metal figurine etc) versus a comparable image of Shroud image fibres at approx the same magnification (x32 as I recall).
comparison-1-cropped-as-is.png


Note the so-called 'half-tone' effect in both - fibres tend to be stained to a uniform intensity, or not stained at all, with no in-betweens. I consider that odd effect to be the result of a brief efflux of liquid cocktail from the roasting flour/oil crust that is wicked away by the capillary spaces between fibres, easily modelled with blue ink as stated earlier.

There's probably not a lot more one can do as regards stained fibres with the merest hint of colour, unless the Vatican allows me access to the Shroud with scalpel, forceps etc. (probability approx same as Hell freezing over in the next 5 minutes). So the attention has switched to the hypothesized crust. Might there be indications of it surviving here and there as denser 'crud' in the existing photographic archive, some of which is still closely guarded for copyright and other reasons. Thibault Heimburger was able to persuade Barrie M.Schwortz, STURP's "documenting" photographer to release an archive of Mark Evans' photomicrographs, one of which appears in that dual image above on the right. (Strange how a "documenting" (non-scientific) photographer has come to acquire copyright on so much scientific data: I guess the self-conferred title of President of STERA - Shroud of Turin Education and Research Association helps - to say nothing of slick footwork on other fronts too).

I've tried applying contrast to a number of those liberated Mark Evans' images, but where they are concerned am inclined to view 'apparent' particulates as at least partly artefactual. That's not based on instant zekephobia as we've seen here but more practical comparative grounds - like comparing image fibres with those of roughly the same hue but described as "scorches" from the 1532 fire, where there's unlikely any role for a coating, just heat. Those lines of dots appear in both!

Why or why are there no simple straightforward snapshots in the public domain of the Shroud body image, viewed through a standard camera lens at close quarters, panning in say to a cm or two, allowing one to detect surface particulates (crud, debris, call it what you want) if present, as I strongly suspect they are? Why is science denied that simple no-nonsense kind of image-presentation, despite the recruitment of both "scientific" and "documenting" photographers to the STURP team?
 
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I've tried applying contrast to a number of those liberated Mark Evans' images, but where they are concerned am inclined to view 'apparent' particulates as at least partly artefactual.

And that didn't raise any red flags for your methodology?

That's not based on instant zekephobia...

No. The objection to your method is neither casually reasoned nor fearful. You declined to comment on the thorough analysis of your method that you asked for and were given, so it's fairly disingenuous of you now to keep insinuating your critics are irrational.
 
And that didn't raise any red flags for your methodology?



No. The objection to your method is neither casually reasoned nor fearful. You declined to comment on the thorough analysis of your method that you asked for and were given, so it's fairly disingenuous of you now to keep insinuating your critics are irrational.

It's a bit tedious to have to repeat oneself over and over again, but here's a summary. The ability of Zeke to provide additional definition to Shroud images was first spotted and reported here a month or so ago when tested with a macroscopic Shroud Scope image - already given some much needed contrast, to correct for what almost certainly had been taken away by those who supplied Mario Latendresse with his base images. I went through my existing file of some 20 Shroud Scope images, all contrast-enhanced, and found that in every instance that particulate matter which showed up better with Zeke was already visible pre-Zeke, albeit fainter or partially-masked by background.

I have since been through that archive from 2012 and shown before and after Zeke for each image, leaving little doubt that the Shroud body image is not homogeneous as claimed, but semi-particulate. That's precisely what I had predicted from my Model 10 if a baked- on flour/oil encrustation had leaked a yellow or brown thermal cocktail into the linen fibres to give the 'enigmatic' stain, but left behind some solid 'crud' as a clue to where the liquid had originated.

See the updated second-half of the 2012 posting, showing before and after Zeke.

It would have been nice if the ability of Zeke to accentuate particulate material worked reliably on photomicrographs too, but there one had to be wary, because there were fewer instances of the particles being visible before Zeke. As now indicated, there is indeed a strong possibility that Zeke does indeed generate artefactual particles when applied to photomicrographs, based on the comparative test stated between image and scorch fibres, only the first hypothesised to have an applied coating (perhaps partially degraded but not completely as seems suggested by Zeke but not exclusively so compared with alternative contrast-enhancing software).

Any prospective new tool, whether intended originally for non-serious purposes (social media etc) has to be judged on its merits via comparative testing against other images of better-understood provenance, gradually building up a knowledge base of its pros and cons. With something like the Shroud, whose body images has resisted explanation for centuries by hundreds of scientists, one cannot afford to go instantly dismissing potential new research tools, merely because they are seen as 'down-market' by non-scientists or even IT image photoediting cognoscenti. In science, it's best to put ALL preconceptions to one side, and start with a blank sheet, putting each prospective new tool through its paces via testing against existing real-world references. Attempts to close down debate with specialist jargon may cut the mustard on internet forums, but frankly has no place in open-minded, consider-all options scientific research.

The modus operandi of science is not what a lot of folk on internet forums seem to imagine it to be. It's far more open-minded, less instantly judgmental than imagined. There would be far fewer folk choosing science as a career if that weren't the case.
 
As now indicated, there is indeed a strong possibility that Zeke does indeed generate artefactual particles when applied to…

… (possibly) anything. One just can't know. Good, don't get married to Zeke. Do more of what you are good at: practical experiments.

I am a flour fan. Pixels not so much.
:D
 
It's a bit tedious to have to repeat oneself over and over again...

I don't want you to repeat yourself. I want you to engage your critics rather than just repeatedly brushing them off.

...in every instance that particulate matter which showed up better with Zeke was already visible pre-Zeke, albeit fainter or partially-masked by background.

As I pointed out earlier, your use of Zeke is either consequential or it isn't. If it is, you have omitted a sufficient validation of its purported role in signal recovery. If it isn't, it's only a liability to your argument and you should stop touting your simplistic use of it. Again, do you really think scientists in image analysis will go any easier on you than I have?

...as seems suggested by Zeke but not exclusively so compared with alternative contrast-enhancing software).

Zeke is not a contrast-enhancing tool. It is an edge-enhancing tool, relying on a simplistically implemented support-constrained deconvolution algorithm to achieve that effect. You have not addressed any of the issues these facts raise.

Any prospective new tool, whether intended originally for non-serious purposes (social media etc) has to be judged on its merits via comparative testing...

We already discussed the limits of black-box testing. Just because that's all you are personally able to do in this case does not mean it suffices for a validation of a tool for some particular purpose. Nor did you do actually test the ability of Zeke -- in black-box fashion or otherwise -- to confirm surface particles on cloth via a controlled trial. It looks like you tested it only on inconclusive data, and then interpreted positive results as a confirmation of method. Your comparative testing, as you describe it, doesn't seem to evade confirmation bais.

As we saw, but you declined to address, a knowledge of how the tool actually works is indispensable. Specifically, a knowledge of what problem the tool is attempting to solve is absolutely crucial in interpreting the results. It lets us understand the types of anomalies we can expect. When your "positive results" resemble one of those anomalies, it strikes us as strange that you're uninterested in further investigation.

...one cannot afford to go instantly dismissing potential new research tools, merely because they are seen as 'down-market' by non-scientists or even IT image photoediting cognoscenti.

The dismissal was not instantaneous nor ill-conceived. But you seem very much to want to believe that it was. As soon as questions were asked designed to determine your approach to tool untested for the purpose, you became belligerent and dismissive. Clearly you did not want to be questioned and continue to be uncooperative in the evaluation of your methods. I drew no conclusions until your evasion was inarguably evident.

Support-constrained deconvolution is not a new tool. That the crude implementation of it we see in Zeke may be new to you is irrelevant. In the hands of a properly educated and experienced practitioner, deconvolutions and other signal processing tools yield useful results. But they are by no means turnkey tools. You may dismiss all you want your critics' observation that the tool you're using is a toy version of a real method. But it matters. The introspection and control needed to apply the deconvolution properly for data recovery are missing in Zeke.

When it comes to image analysis, you are the non-scientist. Whatever qualifications you may have in other fields do not magically endow you with expertise in sciences you have not studied or practiced, nor does it grant a prerogative to assume they must be straightforward or intuitive. Let's hope your future posts come across as less elitist.

In science, it's best to put ALL preconceptions to one side, and start with a blank sheet

You wrongly assume your critics' objections are based on preconceptions. Yes, set aside preconceptions. But it is folly to set aside hard-won knowledge. Yet this is what you want the world to do. You want your personal authority to overrule knowledge obtained over decades by scientists whose only transgression seems to be not residing in your good graces.

putting each prospective new tool through its paces via testing against existing real-world references.

I don't see where you did this. Ostensibly you say these image manipulation tools reveal the presence of particulates on the surface of the Shroud. Whether used together or separately, I don't see where that was tested for these tools. Traditionally that ability would be tested by preparing samples, some known not to contain particulates and others known to contain them, and to have investigators not privy to the sample preparation blindly apply the tool and determine how well the results of their investigation correlate to what is known about the test samples. When an introspective analysis of the tool reveals a strong potential for false-positive results, the need for this particular kind of validation becomes more acute.

Attempts to close down debate with specialist jargon may cut the mustard on internet forums, but frankly has no place in open-minded, consider-all options scientific research.

Once again you forget that that was a response you explicitly solicited. You bristled at your analysis being labeled inexpert and asked your critics to put some substance behind that label. If you ask someone to put up or shut up, and they put up, you don't get to say they should have shut up instead. It's going to be hard to characterize me and your other critics as the ones who are trying to shut down debate.

Having legitimate objections to provably inept applications of method is not being "closed-minded." Continuing to consider options that are shown to have serious flaws is not advisable.

The modus operandi of science is not what a lot of folk on internet forums seem to imagine it to be. It's far more open-minded, less instantly judgmental than imagined. There would be far fewer folk choosing science as a career if that weren't the case.

And you may beg all you want for leniency, but I'd be willing to bet none of what you're doing today is intended to rise above self-published play science. So if this is just play science intended to amuse Shroud enthusiasts and go no further, have at it. No skin off my back.

I wasn't entirely honest when I said I didn't care what happened to you. If that were wholly true I simply would leave you in silence to wallow on the fringes. You seem interested in your baked-flour theory not being dismissed as pseudo-science. And by attachment, you seem to want your image processing to be seen as valid art. You may on the one hand dismiss it all as irrelevant bickering, which is what you seem to be after by posting here. Or on the other hand you can consider that there is a legitimate flaw in your method that will only bite you harder the farther down the field you run with it.

One of the yardsticks I use to identify pseudoscience is whether the author has simplified the problem to fit his knowledge instead of expanding his knowledge to accommodate the problem. If it is important to you to avoid the pseudoscience label, consider carefully your posture.
 
In his defense, mecannoman has previously presented a plausible explanation (alliteration accidental) for the image on the shroud . His 10th hypothesis regarding flour, oil, and heat is not far-fetched, but it is hard to falsify based on the limited access to the shroud.

I agree entirely. It's a thoroughly plausible hypothesis.

I would argue there's a lingering issue in his scale tests, as the mechanics of cloth do not scale. Other researchers have noted that a natural draping of linen over a full-sized body produces a cartographic projection of the facial features, which is not present on the Shroud and may create a false correlation in small-scale tests. But I am confident meccanoman is not ignoring any of that. It's been discussed.

OTOH, This zeke image processing stuff isn't getting him anywhere with me. It seems a waste of time until shroud samples of known provenance become available.

It seems difficult to impress upon him that his proffered method, despite all its homegrown purported rigor, will not rise to a level of credence in the relevant science higher than CIS-style "zoom and enhance." If he intends to present these findings to anyone but Shroud enthusiasts, the image analysis would be a serious liability.
 
Yes, I posted some a while ago. Here's a typical example of the stained fibres that remain after washing an oven-roasted flour imprint (hand, plastic or metal figurine etc) versus a comparable image of Shroud image fibres at approx the same magnification (x32 as I recall).
[qimg]https://shroudofturinwithoutallthehype.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/comparison-1-cropped-as-is.png?w=640&h=191[/qimg]


I asked for the conditions for the pictures taken by you; please help me understand what I'm looking at. Presumably it was taken under incident light, was it a tungsten source? Did you use any color correction, a physical or software filter or both? Why is there a rddish or pinkish cast to the image? I assume this was taken with a zoom scope, is that right? At what magnification?


Note the so-called 'half-tone' effect in both - fibres tend to be stained to a uniform intensity, or not stained at all, with no in-betweens. I consider that odd effect to be the result of a brief efflux of liquid cocktail from the roasting flour/oil crust that is wicked away by the capillary spaces between fibres, easily modelled with blue ink as stated earlier.


I'm not sure what you mean by half-tone. I believe there are particles present in both images, but they'll never be seen using a zoom scope with a maximum magnification of 50 or 60X. I'm sure you know starch particles are roughly the same size as the width of the individual flax fibers.

Why or why are there no simple straightforward snapshots in the public domain of the Shroud body image, viewed through a standard camera lens at close quarters, panning in say to a cm or two, allowing one to detect surface particulates (crud, debris, call it what you want) if present, as I strongly suspect they are? Why is science denied that simple no-nonsense kind of image-presentation, despite the recruitment of both "scientific" and "documenting" photographers to the STURP team?


No sign of this crust in the STURP tape lift samples, Mark Evans' photos or yours. Could it be because it's simply not there?
 
Sure... Now here's a zoomed in part of a low resolution image of the Mona Lisa.
I'd recognize hair painted by Leonardo anywhere. He may have been as gay as a tree full of parrots, and not really that good as a painter--but a great draftsman--but he was totally OCD about hair. ;)
 
Any prospective new tool, whether intended originally for non-serious purposes (social media etc) has to be judged on its merits via comparative testing against other images of better-understood provenance, gradually building up a knowledge base of its pros and cons. With something like the Shroud, whose body images has resisted explanation for centuries by hundreds of scientists, one cannot afford to go instantly dismissing potential new research tools, merely because they are seen as 'down-market' by non-scientists or even IT image photoediting cognoscenti. In science, it's best to put ALL preconceptions to one side, and start with a blank sheet, putting each prospective new tool through its paces via testing against existing real-world references. Attempts to close down debate with specialist jargon may cut the mustard on internet forums, but frankly has no place in open-minded, consider-all options scientific research.

The modus operandi of science is not what a lot of folk on internet forums seem to imagine it to be. It's far more open-minded, less instantly judgmental than imagined. There would be far fewer folk choosing science as a career if that weren't the case.


Your continued lectures on the subject of what comprises proper science are both sad and amusing. You have deflected or ignored, with a few exceptions, the most pertinent questions and criticisms of your beloved Mark 10, demonstrating little of the open-mindedness you claim to esteem. IMO a scientist worth the title is one who attempts to kill their own ideas in their infancy so as not to waste their time or others'. I worked with a guy who, if you stuck a pin in his idea, was likely to say "What a glorious defeat!" because he knew it put us that much closer to the right answer.
 

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