There are different issues, the fundamental research, the clinical research, and the manufacturing. The US isn't a power house in vaccine research, probably because vaccines aren't profitable. Notably it was Europe that was able to rapidly develop covid vaccines. The US does have the money needed to fund role out of vaccines in large clinical trials, e.g. Gates foundation. Europe was able to manufacture vaccines for local use, but the resources of the biotech industry in India and China were needed to globalise. Australia does have the expertise in biotech to develop novel vaccines, and currently the Australian government is supporting this, what Australia lacks is the big pharmaceutical funding for large scale trials, though often e.g. malaria vaccines are NGO funded to begin with. Australia has the ability to manufacture some vaccines locally, but not to provide them on a global scale, and likely never will.
The Truth about RFK Jr
- Thread starter angrysoba
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Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
Australia, and other countries, are opening the very favourable doors to all the out-of-work US vaccine scientists now that their jobs are being eliminated by RFK Jr. in the USA. Australia has the ability to ramp up development rapidly, and we were involved in the COVID vaxx development initially. Still, in the future, India and China will be the powerhouse manufacturers for the world, and the USA will fall further and further behind. So there is going to be a rebalancing of vaccine tech ownership, development, manufacture and distribution very shortly. It's a multi-trillion dollar industry that the USA is rapidly phasing itself out of, plus draining its brains to other countries.
I would love the Australian government to offer a one million resettlement bonus to eminent US researchers. We would be paid back in no time
Chris_Halkides
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Reuters reported on the publication of a Danish study on aluminum, "Kennedy described the research as "a deceitful propaganda stunt by the pharmaceutical industry," and said the scientists who authored it had "meticulously designed it not to find harm" in a detailed Aug. 1 opinion piece on TrialSite News, an independent website focused on clinical research. He called on the journal to "immediately retract" the study...There was no control group because in Denmark, only 2% of children are unvaccinated, which is too small for meaningful comparison, Hviid added. The data is available for researchers to analyze, but individual-level data is not released under Danish law, he said."
Chris_Halkides
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At Beyond the Noise Dr. Paul Offit offered rebuttals to some of Secretary Kennedy's claims. He wrote in part, "RFK Jr. said that the mRNA COVID vaccines can become ineffective due to “antigenic shift, potentially prolonging pandemics.” The term “antigenic shift” is typically reserved for influenza virus, which has a segmented genome that allows for entire gene segments to be transferred from one strain to another. SARS-CoV-2 doesn’t have a segmented genome...He counts on the fact that people will think that because he sounds like he knows what he is talking about, that he actually does."
Again, even if true, wouldn't this apply to all vaccines, not just mRNA? In fact, I would guess that you can realign mRNA vaccines to antigenic shifts faster than other vaccines.
Tero
Philosopher
Probably more to do with the virus itself than any vaccine against it. It will mutate at a rate typical to the virus. Since there are tens of millions of unvaccinated people, the vaccine will not control mutation rate.
Tero
Philosopher
Sunscreen joins wind turbines causing whales to beach, vaccines to program you and contrails:
acedurrani
medicine
Doctor hereI was today years old when I found out there is apparently a anti-sunscreen movement.The "wellness movement" is literally pro-cancer.
acedurrani
medicine
Doctor hereI was today years old when I found out there is apparently a anti-sunscreen movement.The "wellness movement" is literally pro-cancer.Chris_Halkides
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I can't think of any reason to think that mRNA would perform any worse. Medicinal chemist and host of the blog In the Pipeline Derek Lowe wrote, "And let's also be clear on the reasoning behind this decision: it is based on lies, ignorance, and political expediency. Kennedy's own statement about the decision is a steaming pile of ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊, to use the technical term. He claims that such vaccines become ineffective after a single mutation in the underlying virus and that this "encourages mutations and actually prolongs pandemics". All of this is wrong, completely wrong, and it is all contradicted by huge amounts of clinical data and real-world experience in the human population during the Covid pandemic."
Chris_Halkides
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Politico reported on NIH head Jay Bhattacharya's appearance on Steve Bannon's podcast, "“The reason that he did that — and I think it’s very important for people to understand — as far as public health goes for vaccines, the mRNA platform is no longer viable,” Bhattacharya said. “You can’t have a platform where such a large fraction of the population distrusts the platform, if you’re going to use it for vaccines, and expect it to work.” But, but, but: Kennedy, who has long been suspicious of the mRNA vaccine platform, offered an explanation for the funding cuts that contradicts Bhattacharya’s reasoning."
The University of Minnesota posted, "An international virologist group representing more than 80 research labs across more than 40 countries yesterday reaffirmed their support for the continued development and deployment of mRNA vaccines...The group [the Global Virus Network] estimated that the COVID-19 vaccines averted 7.5 million deaths between 2000 and 2024 globally, and that of the more than 298 million doses administered in the United States in the first 6 months of rollout, fewer than 1% of recipients experienced adverse reactions or complications."
The University of Minnesota posted, "An international virologist group representing more than 80 research labs across more than 40 countries yesterday reaffirmed their support for the continued development and deployment of mRNA vaccines...The group [the Global Virus Network] estimated that the COVID-19 vaccines averted 7.5 million deaths between 2000 and 2024 globally, and that of the more than 298 million doses administered in the United States in the first 6 months of rollout, fewer than 1% of recipients experienced adverse reactions or complications."
Different vaccines and vaccine technologies offer different advantages and disadvantages. The mRNA technology seems to have the edge on the others in the speed of developing and manufacturing them.
For this reason, Novavax (see post 821 in The One Covid-19 Science and Medicine Thread), the Cuban Soberana and Abdala vaccines and probably Peter Hotez's Corbevax (see post 2,131) may offer longer-lasting protection.
The Cuban vaccines targeted the receptor-binding domain, which is less likely to mutate. I don't know about the others.
However, RFK Jr.'s idea that it is possible to make a vaccine that offers protection against viruses as diverse as influenza and coronavirus is a pipedream:
ETA: About RFK Jr. and a "universal vaccine":
However, if I have understood this correctly (and I don't have the time to look it up right now), a problem with the mRNA vaccines is that they can't immunize against a virus strain as broadly as more conventional vaccines. That is, at least in the case of Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna, they attack spike proteins, which tend to mutate faster than the rest of the virus, thus making it easier for the virus to escape pre-existing acquired immunity by changing the spike proteins.
For this reason, Novavax (see post 821 in The One Covid-19 Science and Medicine Thread), the Cuban Soberana and Abdala vaccines and probably Peter Hotez's Corbevax (see post 2,131) may offer longer-lasting protection.
The Cuban vaccines targeted the receptor-binding domain, which is less likely to mutate. I don't know about the others.
However, RFK Jr.'s idea that it is possible to make a vaccine that offers protection against viruses as diverse as influenza and coronavirus is a pipedream:
it just shows that he knows absolutely nothing about vaccines and viruses.
ETA: About RFK Jr. and a "universal vaccine":
(With annoying ad for men's underwear from 4:35 to 5:40, but I guess that's what it takes for content creators to make a living.)
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Chris_Halkides
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At The Washington Post NIH head Jay Bhattacharya wrote, "But as a vaccine intended for broad public use, especially during a public health emergency, the platform has failed a crucial test: earning public trust. No matter how elegant the science, a platform that lacks credibility among the people it seeks to protect cannot fulfill its public health mission...Some outlets have blamed the poor coronavirus mRNA vaccine uptake on poor messaging or “anti-vax” counter-messaging. But the Biden administration made suppression of speech — and a mandate for all on the vaccine — into a priority...To do so with complete confidence about vaccine safety and efficacy requires an exact understanding of dosage, biodistribution and off-target effects. Unfortunately, we fall short on all three. We lack clarity on how much antigen each mRNA molecule produces, where in the body the mRNA product winds up, how long it stays in the body, and whether unintended proteins are created."
Dr. Bhattacharya cited an estimate of 2.5 million lives saved by the vaccines.
Dr. Bhattacharya cited an estimate of 2.5 million lives saved by the vaccines.
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That is brilliant: The mRNA vaccine "has failed a crucial test: earning public trust," says the guy who has been busy destroying public trust in the mRNA vaccine - and is still doing so!
To say nothing about Bhattacharya being one of the authors of The Great Barrington Declaration, the pre-vaccination herd-immunity-by-infection manifesto paid for by the libertarian 'think tank' American Institute for Economic Research.
Our resident Covid minimizers must be so proud!
Tero
Philosopher
From there:
Biodistribution of RNA Vaccines and of Their Products: Evidence from Human and Animal Studies - PMC
Explosive developments in mRNA vaccine technology in the last decade have made it possible to achieve great success in clinical trials of mRNA vaccines to prevent infectious diseases and develop cancer treatments and mRNA-based gene therapy ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Why would it be an allergen? It is not as if that risk hasn't been studied! The spike protein is an immunogen. As such, it is a potential allergen, which is why vaccine researchers are always looking out for signs of autoimmunity responses caused by new vaccines being developed.From there:
The spike protein produced by vaccine stays in the body a while. We could in fact just make the spike protein, and study it in mammals. Is it an allergen? RNA bits stay in the body too. But if you had Covid, the same spike protein and bits of siomilar RNA stay in the body as well. And...inactivated virus vaccines...also are made of viral proteins and RNA or DNA bits. The infection of any disease leaves biomolecules in you.Biodistribution of RNA Vaccines and of Their Products: Evidence from Human and Animal Studies - PMC
Explosive developments in mRNA vaccine technology in the last decade have made it possible to achieve great success in clinical trials of mRNA vaccines to prevent infectious diseases and develop cancer treatments and mRNA-based gene therapy ...
(An autoimmune response was the reason why 1 in 200 vaccinated with Pasteur's first rabies vaccine died. That was still good odds in a vaccine that cured a 100%-lethal disease, but Pasteur got to work again and eliminated that very unfortunate side effect.)
As for "just make the spike protein" (and inject it, instead of having mRNA induce cells to make the spike protein) is how some traditional vaccines work:
Also from the Nebraska Medicine article:
From Tero's article (snRNA is Self-Amplifying mRNA):
From the Nebraska article - about two animal studies:
I am not sure that the discussion about vaccine technology and mRNA vaccines in particular should continue in this thread. It might be better suited for The One Covid-19 Science and Medicine Thread.
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Tero
Philosopher
I made a main point: all the same parts are in the vaccine and virus. If there is harm, it is in both. There is not a vaccine around that does not introduce foreign chemicals. The symptoms and side effects may be none, but the proteins and RNA/DNA is always there. Every vaccine.
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I'm not sure what you're getting at.
You made several points. You don't seem to know much about vaccines.
1) All the same parts are not in the vaccine and the virus! The virus is the virus. It contains more than just the spike protein. Some vaccines contain the spike protein and no other part of the virus. In my previous post I quoted: "The Novavax vaccine introduces the actual protein into your body to produce an immune response similar to many other vaccines currently in use." The mRNA vaccines contain mRNA that makes cells in your body produce the actual protein, the spike protein of one or more recent variants of SARS-CoV-2. "The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines work by introducing mRNA (messenger RNA) into your muscle cells. The cells make copies of the spike protein"
Besides, vaccines contain other stuff that you don't find in the virus.
2) The virus is a complicated entity of many parts. There is harm in the virus, obviously. But claiming that there is harm in the vaccine because it contains a part of the virus (again: the spike protein in the case of most non-mRNA C19 vaccines) is like claiming that the polar-bear rug in front of your fireplace is dangerous because it contains the fur of the polar bear. Unless you're allergic to polar-bear fur, it's harmless.
Is that what you are claiming?
3) It is true that "there is not a vaccine around that does not introduce foreign chemicals." H2O is a chemical. NaCl is a chemical. We couldn't live without them. And the recently released Danish study just showed that the allegedly dangerous chemicals aren't dangerous in the form and quantity in which they occur in the studied vaccines.
4) When the symptoms and side effects are none, it means that the vaccine is safe. Was that your point?
5) Our bodies are full of proteins, RNA and DNA, and we fill them with more proteins and RNA/DNA every day. They are in the food we eat, and in most of the fluids we drink. Some, but not all, vaccines contain RNA. The spike protein is a protein, obviously, but it is neither DNA nor RNA.
I can recommend Paul Offit's book Vaccinated. I read it 10 years before the pandemic, but I can see that the updated version includes the mRNA vaccines.
Offit knows what he is talking about.
This guy doesn't:
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