Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

[SpitfireIX]

Please can you concentrate on the topic of the thread. Thanks.

Everyone reading the thread can see that you just don't want to admit that you dishonestly mischaracterized my argument.

If you want to espouse your views on the merits or otherwise of eugenics (a topic I am not interested in) please start a different thread.

Everyone can also see that this is both a huge non sequitur and a red herring. It's just a lame attempt to deflect attention from your aforementioned dishonest mischaracterization while also dishonestly insinuating that I may be a eugenicist. And apparently your "breadth of knowledge" was inadequate to understand the difference between eugenics and biological anthropology.

As I said, I am only interested in the objective facts of the case.

Your extensive posting history in this thread indicates otherwise.

 

[gabeygoat]

No not a joke, a common reference.







.

FFS wOt?

 

[SpitfireIX]

Maybe that is your error pontificating on topics on which you have little to no familiarity.

I really need to start unplugging those before I read your posts. And, again, because you don't inline your

It is incredibly childish to claim you have all kinds of mates to back you up and cracking your knuckles as if that'll force me to 'admit' a lie or an error is true.

I made no such claim.

Yes, it is my view that the pair only got off because of shady outside influence. It is as plain as day.

If it's so obvious, then why didn't the Italian anti-Mafia authorities investigate and prosecute the justices of the Court of Cassation?? That's a direct question; kindly answer.

Knox even thanked Trump in her Netfilx doc.

She thanked him for speaking out on her behalf, and for (supposedly) contributing to her legal defense fund. Fail.

Anyone who thinks Knox got a 28-year jail sentence, and Sollecito 25 'for no reason...except for a rogue prosecutor, Mignini' is living in CUCKOO!!!! cloud cuckooland.

straw man​

noun​

1
: a weak or imaginary opposition (such as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confuted . . .

(source)

Or maybe like yourself they are misguided 'patriots' who think it is an insult on the USA to imagine one of theirs could do such a thing.

State your evidence that I'm a misguided "patriot" who thinks that.

 

[SpitfireIX]

You are a stereotypist in that you are stereotyping someone with different interests from yourself as a 'conspiracy theorist' because you are too lazy to bother to find out what it is they are interested in. It makes you appear pompous and bumptious because you actually do not have any authority over other people's choice of interests yet you really do believe you can go up to their face and call them names.

I'm going to renew my questions, because I believe they're perfectly reasonably, and I'm also genuinely curious about what you're getting at here.

You claim that Knox and Sollecito were let off due to Mafia influence on the Court of Cassation. You are asserting that a powerful, secretive organization has conspired to influence an event such that it occurred in a manner substantially different from how it is commonly understood to have occurred, and that a secret of great importance is being kept from the public.

Are we not both interested in the Knox case?

What other interest or interests of yours, specifically, do you feel I should know about that ought to lead me to believe you're not a conspiracy theorist?

Can you please explain, specifically, what interest or interests you feel I'm attempting to prevent you from pursuing?

 

[Stacyhs]

Don't tell lies. The police turned up at 12:30-ish. Sollecito rang his sister and then the Carabinieri at 12:54 - this is scientifically logged; it is not an opinion! - and he was skulking about in Knox' room when he did so, furtively. Why are you trying to persuade people they called the police first when it is a blatant lie?

Not according to Massei, Hellmann, or Marasca.
Not according to any logic or common sense.

Scientifically logged; not an opinion! FIVE telephone calls were made during the time the police claimed to have been there:
12:34:56 Amanda to Filomena 48 seconds
12:47:23 Amanda to Edda 88 second
12:50:34 Raffaele to Vanessa 39 seconds
12:51:40 Raffaele to 112 169 seconds
12:54:39 Raffaele to 112 57 seconds

That's almost SEVEN MINUTES of telephone calls the police somehow missed seeing or hearing even though AK and RS were in the presence of Battistelli and/or Marzi the entire time before the others arrived.
I'd provided this info to you before, but as usual, any evidence you can't explain away, you just ignore as if it doesn't exist.
Can you explain how the postales missed hearing/seeing all these calls?

 

[Stacyhs]

See above. Sollecito rang his sister in the Carabinieri to seek advice after the postal police turned up .

See above. One of the FIVE calls the postales managed to somehow miss during the time they claimed to be there.

 

[Stacyhs]

Oh really? So how come Guede's parent didn't know until the TV news at midday, 20 Nov 2007

Gee, I dunno, Vixen. Maybe Roger didn't watch the news until lunchtime? He didn't know his son was a suspect, so do you think he was glued to his TV set that morning? The fact is, as I quoted and cited, ANSA had already published his name and photo on Nov 19.

, and Curt Knox said in the police wiretap to his daughter that they had not yet said who the fourth person arrested was as of the time he visited at 9:00 am

I've already posted and cited the CORRECT time of 9:30-10:30, not 9:00, and quoted that exchange.

. But his daughter knew well before midday! Well, well.

Because it was on the news as I've already provided evidence for:

Turetta arrestato in Germania come accadde con Rudy Guede​

L'unico condannato per omicidio Kercher fu fermato in treno
PERUGIA,
19 novembre 2023, 11:45

What part of
11:45 on Nov. 19 are you not understanding? That the 19th is the day BEFORE the 20th?
You have failed to produce any evidence that it was not aired before lunchtim aside from claiming the Roger Guede didn't see it before lunchtime. Well, well.

We all know Curt Knox and Edda Mellas had their eyes peeled on the news and their ear close to the ground, yet Curt had no news as of the time he visited Knox at circa 9:00am.

What you're wanting us to assume is that they watched the news that morning. Has it occurred to you that they got up, got dressed, had breakfast and went directly to the prison to see their daughter?

Clear now?

Yep. It's clear that you are ignoring the ANSA report of Nov. 19 using Guede's name and photo.

 

[Stacyhs]

[Edit] No, sorry that was a bit unkind. I think you are more misguided than ill-intentioned.

It's interesting that you automatically assumed I was referring to you. I was, but still, it's interesting. Is it because you were the one previously claiming "for not having committed the fact" in an MR was just a "typo" or "clerical error"?

 

[Stacyhs]

Stop trying to be a cute teenager.

Stop refusing to answer questions you don't like the answers to.

 

[Stacyhs]

Please post a citation for the statement: Guede's parent didn't know until the TV news at midday, 20 Nov 2007.

This information leads to the question who is being referred to as "Guede's parent" because his natural father was, according to sources back in the Ivory Coast and his "adoptive" family had allegedly cut off ties. If this statement has any basis in an alleged fact with a citation, how frequently was this individual termed "Guede's parent" watching the TV news at the relevant time?

Here's summary information on Guede's family status:


Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher
I have left out the footnote reference numbers (superscripts) in the original Wikipedia text that I have quoted above.

Your statement obviously overlooks the possibility that the news of Guede's arrest, including his name, was broadcast prior to "Guede's parent" watching TV news. Do you have evidence from the TV schedules and contents of the TV news programs that supports your claim? Please provide citations if you have such evidence. Otherwise, one can safely assume "Guede's parent" simply didn't see the earlier news reporting the information.

Roger Guede was actually living in Perugia at the time of his son's arrest. His address in Perugia is listed in the notice of his hiring Biscotti.

This is from Burleigh's book:

A Perugia lawyer, Dottor Valter Biscotti, happened to be in Abidjan on business when Rudy Guede was arrested in Germany on November 19, 2007. He got word of the arrest during a chance meeting with Ivorian diplomats, who he said connected him with Roger Guede back in Perugia.

Burleigh, Nina. The Fatal Gift of Beauty: The Trials of Amanda Knox (p. 227). Crown. Kindle Edition.

 

[Stacyhs]

Because she had to remove the sodding wet mop!!!! The pair probably replaced the mop with a new one and disposed of the one used to clean up the cottage during that two hour lull before she switched her phone back on.

So now we have the pair replacing the mop with a new one! Maybe Knox bought that at the same time as she bought the bleach at Quintavalles's store!

She had to have an explanation as to why she was even there at the cottage that morning after the murder the night before.

She had an explanation: she wanted to shower and change before going to Gubbio.
She didn't need to invent the mop in order to go to her own home.

WHAT did she clean up with that 'sopping wet' mop, Vixen? Was it the corridor floor where INTACT footprints and shoeprints were found? Was it Filomena's floor where both Knox's and Kercher's DNA was found? Maybe the bathroom floor where she just happened to leave and point out the bloody bathmat and not bother to clean the blood of the sink, light switch or door frame?

 

[Numbers]

Thanks again to TomG, who pointed out in a post several days ago that the HUDOC EXEC entry for the Status of Execution on Knox v. Italy now included the following new sentence:

Bilateral contacts are ongoing to obtain the submission of an action plan or report.

I was pleased to see this addition to the enrty since an Action Plan or Report is long overdue for this case.

Now, I imagined or suspected that this sentence had been added specifically to Knox's entry because not only was an AP/R long overdue, but the recent retrial and re-conviction for calunnia begs the question of what Italy's intentions are for resolving the Knox v. Italy case.

There are a total of 74 ECHR cases against Italy pending execution under CoM supervision: for 52, the CoM has received an AP/R from Italy, for 5, no AP/R is required, and for 17, the CoM is awaiting receipt of an AP/R. I found through online research that of the 17 pending ECHR cases awaiting receipt of an AP/R, 9 of those cases (including Knox v. Italy) had that statement added to their Status of Execution (in one, the words "under way" were substituted for "ongoing", a distinction without a difference in meaning). The other 8 cases had only the language that "an Action Plan or Report is awaited" or, in one of the 8 cases, that the AP/R had been promised to be sent to the CoM in 2024.

Thus, the language about ongoing bilateral contacts to obtain an awaited AP/R remains promising, but, based on its general use, it is not tied to or motivated by the recent retrial and re-conviction of Knox for calunnia.

For a list of final ECHR cases against Italy pending before the CoM, see:

https://hudoc.exec.coe.int/eng#{%22execdocumenttypecollection%22:[%22CEC%22],%22execlanguage%22:[%22ENG%22],%22execstate%22:[%22ITA%22],%22execisclosed%22:[%22False%22],%22exectype%22:[%22L%22]}

 

[Vixen]

I really need to start unplugging those before I read your posts. And, again, because you don't inline your


I made no such claim.


If it's so obvious, then why didn't the Italian anti-Mafia authorities investigate and prosecute the justices of the Court of Cassation?? That's a direct question; kindly answer.


She thanked him for speaking out on her behalf, and for (supposedly) contributing to her legal defense fund. Fail.

straw man​

noun​

1
: a weak or imaginary opposition (such as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confuted . . .

(source)


State your evidence that I'm a misguided "patriot" who thinks that.

How do you know there is no investigation? They are hardly going to advertise it. But if you have an insight into Italian judicial workings you can catch a glimpse of the balances and rebalances that go on. Mignini himself will never discuss the issue of mafia corruption, despite before retirement being part of the anti-Mafia division. This is similar to Money Laundering laws. Under the Money Laundering Act (UK version) it is a criminal offence to even let the person you suspect to know that you suspect.

You said you believe in innocence (albeit qualified by 'likely') which tells me you are mostly informed by the massive PR campaign in the USA, where most Americans are convinced the pair were 'railroaded' and falsely accused by some rogue prosecutor or backward legal system in a backward country, or perhaps like a lot of people, you can't comprehend that many killers are not even wired like normal people so they just cannot believe that someone who looks normal could have 'done it', so they want to be 100% convinced because it is all so outlandish and beyond all sense that anyone 'would do such a thing', especially if they do not fit the normal stereotypical background of a criminal (broken nose, cauliflower ears, menacing close set eyes, etc). But that is your prerogative and as you say I am not the teacher and neither am I an evangelist. I could not care less what your view is, but given your intense hostility I would tenuously place you as a staunch AK supporter based on the US aspect. I hasten to add, there are plenty of Americans who do not believe they are innocent, so my apologies to anyone offended by the sweeping generalisation.


.

 

[SpitfireIX]

No not a joke, a common reference conspiracy theory.

FTFY

Further, you claimed that you made the comment in jest. So how did you not mean it as a joke??

As for the Reddit, which you apparently haven't (and is nine years old, BTW), the following excerpts are instructive:

I've heard different stories, but I highly doubt the veracity of them. Ideally, a brother wouldn't be in front of a judge in the first place - and depending on the context, a masonic trial may soon follow. We hold ourselves to a higher standard, and abusing the fraternity in such a way does not meet that standard. At all.​

​

Additionally:

I once worked with a brother Mason who had been a police officer in a previous career. He told me that there was a morning he was in court waiting for a case to come up. In the case that was currently being heard the defendant was sitting at the table before the judge and kept giving the grand hailing sign of distress. After the 3rd or 4th time the judge called him out on it, he stated that yes he was in fact a mason and recognized what he was doing, but if the defendant did it one more time he would hold him in contempt of court and take him before the grand lodge for charges of un-masonic conduct, something that his legal charges actually justified anyway. The defendant also was not given an easy sentence for his crimes.​

 

[Stacyhs]

More evidence that Guede was identified on Nov. 19 in the Italian media.

"Quarto uomo, cattura imminente"​

Investigatori sulle tracce dell'ivoriano che avrebbe stuprato Meredith:

19 Novembre 2007
The identity of the fourth man implicated in the murder of Meredith Kercher has now been traced and the Perugia investigators have written his name, Rudy Ermann, on an international arrest warrant.

He is a 21-year-old African, originally from the Ivory Coast, who arrived in Italy not as an illegal immigrant but as a privileged regular, having been adopted by a family of industrialists from Perugia. A conflictual relationship, marked by an abrupt separation and the young man's move to the drug dealing environment where he was soon noticed by the police. Five years ago he was the victim of a stabbing during a violent fight that broke out precisely over drugs.

This report was on Nov. 19, 2007 at 15:43:

Meredith Murder: The Identity of the "Fourth Man" RevealedMeredith Murder: The Identity of the "Fourth Man" Revealed:
It Is the Twenty-Year-Old Ivorian Rudy Hermann Guede. He played three seasons ago in C1 with NPP Perugia. He is now wanted with an international arrest warrant.

 

[Stacyhs]

How do you know there is no investigation? They are hardly going to advertise it. But if you have an insight into Italian judicial workings you can catch a glimpse of the balances and rebalances that go on. Mignini himself will never discuss the issue of mafia corruption, despite before retirement being part of the anti-Mafia division. This is similar to Money Laundering laws. Under the Money Laundering Act (UK version) it is a criminal offence to even let the person you suspect to know that you suspect.

It's been TEN YEARS since the final acquittal. No one has to prove there ISN'T an investigation.
UK law is irrelevant in Italy.

You said you believe in innocence (albeit qualified by 'likely') which tells me you are mostly informed by the massive PR campaign in the USA, where most Americans are convinced the pair were 'railroaded' and falsely accused by some rogue prosecutor or backward legal system in a backward country, or perhaps like a lot of people, you can't comprehend that many killers are not even wired like normal people so they just cannot believe that someone who looks normal could have 'done it', so they want to be 100% convinced because it is all so outlandish and beyond all sense that anyone 'would do such a thing', especially if they do not fit the normal stereotypical background of a criminal (broken nose, cauliflower ears, menacing close set eyes, etc). But that is your prerogative and as you say I am not the teacher and neither am I an evangelist. I could not care less what your view is, but given your intense hostility I would tenuously place you as a staunch AK supporter based on the US aspect. I hasten to add, there are plenty of Americans who do not believe they are innocent, so my apologies to anyone offended by the sweeping generalisation.

Load of rubbish. You can't defend your own arguments with any evidence so you just make up things. When challenged, you play the victim.

 

[Vixen]

I'm going to renew my questions, because I believe they're perfectly reasonably, and I'm also genuinely curious about what you're getting at here.

You claim that Knox and Sollecito were let off due to Mafia influence on the Court of Cassation. You are asserting that a powerful, secretive organization has conspired to influence an event such that it occurred in a manner substantially different from how it is commonly understood to have occurred, and that a secret of great importance is being kept from the public.

Are we not both interested in the Knox case?

What other interest or interests of yours, specifically, do you feel I should know about that ought to lead me to believe you're not a conspiracy theorist?

Can you please explain, specifically, what interest or interests you feel I'm attempting to prevent you from pursuing?

You have expressed several times your inability to cope with the idea I should be interested in the MV Estonia accident and to be curious as to what happened to Capt. Arvo Piht. I am sorry if that upsets you but that is what I am interested in. You write it off sneeringly as a conspiracy theory but in fact, it highlights your level of understanding as mundane, actually, and not at all as superior you deign to present yourself as. Hence, the cheap name-calling by you as a put-down tactic because you feel insecure. But onwards and upwards.

I would suggest, given your instinctive stonewalling defensiveness, the best way to understand the corrupt influences in the AK/RS case would be to:

• Get rid of your belief that the Italian judicial system is backward, corrupt and with vindictive prosecutors running amok.
• Realise that the Italian legal system is highly advanced and that Italy is a highly civilised country.
• Its legal system as we know it today goes back to its foundations at least 800 years, before the USA was ever founded.
• The Italian legal system is pretty much the same as that all over Europe, apart from the UK and minor exceptions.
• It is predicated on set protocols and procedures and is designed to be as fair as possible from the defendants POV.

Next, to understand why the Fifth Chambers Marasca-Bruno annulment of 2015 is errant, you really do need to understand how Criminal Law works. It is a rigid procedure developed and refined over the centuries and it is not possible for any prosecutor - rogue or otherwise - to fix anyone with a trumped up murder charge. This is because there are many courts with many stages and numerous judges and personnel, with inbuilt quality control standards. The idea AK and RS were victimised by an evil prosecutor is a childish one and wholly irrational.

As to the likely reasons Marasca-Bruno erred and improperly ignored Nencini, substituting facts not found of their own, well despite the highly advanced judiciary there IS an organised corruption problem based on age-old conflicts plus the fact of some judges being political appointments, which is bound to throw justice off key to some extent, not dissimilar to that experienced in the USA.

So here's some insight here as to the AK/RS issues:

It turns out Raffaele Sollecito belongs to a very well connected Mafia family and this may be one of the reasons why and how he was acquitted, with the help of some corrupt judges and DNA experts. Since Knox was joined to him legally, he had to help get her off too, though he tried to throw her under the bus several times leading up to the acquittal.

His lawyer, Giulia Bongiorno, was part of the legal team that got Mafia connected Italian PM Mario Andretti acquitted on charges of murdering a political opponent. Just like with Knox and Sollecito, on 'insufficient evidence'.

His father, Italian surgeon Francesco Sollecito, is known as "the urologist to the Dons" but the Sollecitos of Bari are themselves a well known Italian crime family.

Francesco's cousin Rocco was the consigliere (some say the real power behind and therefore untouchable) to Canada's largest crime family, the Rizzutos. Then he got shot down in Montreal May 27, 2016 in a gang war. Sollecito's murder came after his son, Stefano, was arrested in November in a major drug sweep and accused of being an influential leader of the Montreal Mafia.

The Sollecitos of Montreal (who are big in construction) are tied to Amanda Knox's lawyer Carlo Dalla Vedova who represents them in the now stalled mob controlled Messina Straits Bridge project.

The Sollecitos are allies of the New York-New Jersey Bonnano crime family.

His sister and aunt, an influential Italian politician, were caught trying to fix the case.

His family released video of Meredith Kercher's naked body to their local TV station in Bari. The producers were indicted, they got away with it.

It wasn't only the Italian Mafia that was involved; so too was the Democratic Party er, whatever. Journalist Nina Burleigh wrote in Newsweek how she received assurances from "a state department source at the Embassy in Rome" that Amanda Knox would never be extradited no matter what happened after her second stage acquittal in 2011.

This would be Ambassador David Thorne, Senate Foreign Ctee Chair John Kerry's ex-brother in law. Given that WA senator Maria Cantwell and mid level Democrat officials like her Congressman and Democrat judges all tried to intervene in the case makes it likely, as the Italians allege, that political pressure was put on them to fix the case. ~ Naseer Ahmad

.

 

[Vixen]

Gee, I dunno, Vixen. Maybe Roger didn't watch the news until lunchtime? He didn't know his son was a suspect, so do you think he was glued to his TV set that morning? The fact is, as I quoted and cited, ANSA had already published his name and photo on Nov 19.


I've already posted and cited the CORRECT time of 9:30-10:30, not 9:00, and quoted that exchange.

Because it was on the news as I've already provided evidence for:



What part of
11:45 on Nov. 19 are you not understanding? That the 19th is the day BEFORE the 20th?
You have failed to produce any evidence that it was not aired before lunchtim aside from claiming the Roger Guede didn't see it before lunchtime. Well, well.



What you're wanting us to assume is that they watched the news that morning. Has it occurred to you that they got up, got dressed, had breakfast and went directly to the prison to see their daughter?

Yep. It's clear that you are ignoring the ANSA report of Nov. 19 using Guede's name and photo.

Your newspaper report is dated 19 Nov 2023. The first news - as reported by professional journalist, John Follain, in 2011 was 20 Nov 2007. Guede was not even arrested in Koblenz until 6:00am on 20 November 2007.

Turetta arrestato in Germania come accadde con Rudy Guede​

L'unico condannato per omicidio Kercher fu fermato in treno
PERUGIA,
19 novembre 2023, 11:45

 

[Vixen]

So now we have the pair replacing the mop with a new one! Maybe Knox bought that at the same time as she bought the bleach at Quintavalles's store!

She had an explanation: she wanted to shower and change before going to Gubbio.
She didn't need to invent the mop in order to go to her own home.

WHAT did she clean up with that 'sopping wet' mop, Vixen? Was it the corridor floor where INTACT footprints and shoeprints were found? Was it Filomena's floor where both Knox's and Kercher's DNA was found? Maybe the bathroom floor where she just happened to leave and point out the bloody bathmat and not bother to clean the blood of the sink, light switch or door frame?

Well we know there was a mopping up because between the Sollecito footprint on the bathmat and the next nearest footprint highlighted by luminol, there is a gap of several metres, which would not have been possible for him to have leapt without leaving a trace of the same wet blood. Unless he's some kind of Olympic Triple Jumper.

Think about it, walking in the victim's blood. That is the person Doug Preston and co has fought so hard to escape justice just because Preston was once told to leave Italy by Mignini.

And AK had the nerve to describe Mez' blood as 'Ew, she must have been on her period. Ew.'



Ew, indeed.

.

 

[Vixen]

FTFY

Further, you claimed that you made the comment in jest. So how did you not mean it as a joke??

As for the Reddit, which you apparently haven't (and is nine years old, BTW), the following excerpts are instructive:

I've heard different stories, but I highly doubt the veracity of them. Ideally, a brother wouldn't be in front of a judge in the first place - and depending on the context, a masonic trial may soon follow. We hold ourselves to a higher standard, and abusing the fraternity in such a way does not meet that standard. At all.​

​

Additionally:

I once worked with a brother Mason who had been a police officer in a previous career. He told me that there was a morning he was in court waiting for a case to come up. In the case that was currently being heard the defendant was sitting at the table before the judge and kept giving the grand hailing sign of distress. After the 3rd or 4th time the judge called him out on it, he stated that yes he was in fact a mason and recognized what he was doing, but if the defendant did it one more time he would hold him in contempt of court and take him before the grand lodge for charges of un-masonic conduct, something that his legal charges actually justified anyway. The defendant also was not given an easy sentence for his crimes.​

It was not a joke. I was pointing out that a 'cut throat' gesture does NOT mean 'she had her throat slit' as Altieri tried to waffle his way out of explaining how he knew, to tell Knox. A 'cut throat' gesture very commonly means, 'finito', 'the end', 'finished'.


Do you still want to labour the point??



.