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The Third Roberts-Fetzer Debate

jackchit i see your more obsessed with Mark Roberts than any of us are. I see you have not even posted outside of a thread about Mark Roberts

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/search.php?searchid=804129


This is unhealthy and tragic. It must be frustrating to be unable to form a 911 foundation of fantasy when someone with a briefcase and folder keeps pulling the defective bricks out from under it. It does not matter that it has been brought to the attention of the populace that your fantasy is destined to fail. Not having the tools to repair those flaws you take issue with the messenger. So sad to be you. But i am glad to have you post here. To have your methods exposed for all the fence sitters watching your folly to see. What a sad unfortunate way to spend ones birthday.
 
A W Smith said:
jackchit i see your more obsessed with Mark Roberts than any of us are. I see you have not even posted outside of a thread about Mark Roberts

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/search.php?searchid=804129


This is unhealthy and tragic. It must be frustrating to be unable to form a 911 foundation of fantasy when someone with a briefcase and folder keeps pulling the defective bricks out from under it. It does not matter that it has been brought to the attention of the populace that your fantasy is destined to fail. Not having the tools to repair those flaws you take issue with the messenger. So sad to be you. But i am glad to have you post here. To have your methods exposed for all the fence sitters watching your folly to see. What a sad unfortunate way to spend ones birthday.
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It's my birthday too. What a sad unfortunate way to spend ones birthday...;)
 
A W Smith said:
jackchit i see your more obsessed with Mark Roberts than any of us are. I see you have not even posted outside of a thread about Mark Roberts
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Meanwhile, Dylan's got an avatar of Roberts, Kevin Ryan chickens out of a debate...

I gotta tell ya twoofers: if you wanna stage some sort of revolution with this "truth" cult of yours, you should at least be able to successfully take on a NYC tour guide.
 
jackchit said:
As the shows host you can tell the audience your opinions but must however remain impartial otherwise the show is clearly not balanced.
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Here is the source of your confusion on this point: I don't care if the show is unbalanced. David Susskind used to host a show called "Open End." Frequently, it featured Susskind, Gore Vidal, and some other lefty ganging up on William F. Buckley, who invariably crushed all of them. The lesson here is that if you've got the goods, you'll win. If Mark and I are making the same arguments, then you have only to refute one of us.




I notice you do not address the point of the credentials of the protaganists being clearly a lie.
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When conspiracy liars prattle about "lies" that are nothing of the sort, I tend to ignore them.


Why did you not point out that Mark has no qualifications in any area other than showing people where the nearest toilet is?
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Mark may be better informed about the various issues relating to the jihadist attacks of 9/11/01 than anyone alive. That is not to say that he is the ultimate authority on any particular issue.
 
CHF said:
Meanwhile, Dylan's got an avatar of Roberts, Kevin Ryan chickens out of a debate...

I gotta tell ya twoofers: if you wanna stage some sort of revolution with this "truth" cult of yours, you should at least be able to successfully take on a NYC tour guide.
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In their minds, this is taking him on: making threats, attempting to mock his credentials, making avatars of him... that's how they deal with it- because they're simply incapable of meeting him on the intellectual level.

Jackchit is a perfect example of that cognitive dissonance- which usually manifests itself in a whopping contradiction: complaining about Mark's "qualifications" (which are really determined by his knowledge, not his academic recognitions) only results in the complete lack of qualifications of the entire truth movement being put into question, as well as the startling fact that a "tour guide" is fully capable of knocking down people like Fetzer with just a little bit of patience and a book of facts (and a knowledge of how to use them).

As many have pointed out- this whining only drowns the conspiracists in their own tears.
 
jackchit said:
So you all agree that the next time roberts appears on these "shows" his real credentials IE tour guide should be displayed for everyone to see?
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Yes, I do. I think that next time Gravy is on Hardfire or any other show, countering a conspiracist, his caption should be "Literate New York Area Resident". It's not at all misleading. I don't really see how that's going to help the CT claims, though. The whole attack on Mr. Roberts based on his chosen career seems like an ad hominem - would the facts that he brings be any less valid if he were a plumber, or a real estate agent, or a stock broker?

Attack the argument and not the arguer.
 
Minadin said:
Yes, I do. I think that next time Gravy is on Hardfire or any other show, countering a conspiracist, his caption should be "Literate New York Area Resident". It's not at all misleading. I don't really see how that's going to help the CT claims, though. The whole attack on Mr. Roberts based on his chosen career seems like an ad hominem - would the facts that he brings be any less valid if he were a plumber, or a real estate agent, or a stock broker?

Attack the argument and not the arguer.
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Don't forget that it is a very inane form of prejudice. IMO it shows the true mentality of the woo.
 
Wow.... Just wow.

Ad homenin
Appeal to Authority
Reverse appeal to Authority
Begging the question
Strawman

Did Jack actually miss any major logical falacies in the last two pages?
 
The caption is accurate: Mark Roberts is a 9/11 researcher. That is the relevant expertise he brings to the table.

Why do truthers specialize in creating tempests in teapots? Oh, my bad. That's what truthers do best.
 
jackchit said:
So you all agree that the next time roberts appears on these "shows" his real credentials IE tour guide should be displayed for everyone to see?
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Why, sure! Do you think Mark takes offense at naming his occupation?

Pomeroo(Ron), Could you edit the videos? Put in some more accurate captions to satisfy this....




Mark Roberts: New York City Tour Guide, and Diligent 9/11 Researcher

Jim Fetzer: Philosophy Teacher, Author, Pedant, Sophist, Never Met a Conspiracy Theory He Didn't Like

Dylan Avery: Film School Dropout, Plagiarist, Video Editor, Moving Target, Master of Slippery Slope Morality

Jason Bermas: No One Knows, We're Open to Suggestions

That ought to satisfy JackChit's request. Alternately, as numerous have already pointed out, we disqualify Gravy on the basis of his credentials, ignoring the thousands of hours of research he's put in, and in return every 911 Truth website also agrees to shut down since their credentials are equally relevant to Mark's, and they've done about half the work he has.
 
jackchit said:
I don't think we should be worried about rebutting the woo woo theories of someone who rose to the heights of tour guide.
Give us some proffesionals in this field, remember the burden of proof is with you and if you offer this guy as your star witness then you are f****d
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Actually the burden of proof lies with you, proceed or leave. Your childish and immature rhetoric is not welcome. If you wish to debate facts do so, if not do not post again. If you have nothing to add other than silly school playground insults then it is of little wonder you and your conspiracies are not taken seriously.

Whether Mark Roberts is a tour Guide or not, is completely irrelevant to what he had to say. If you disagree with what was said, do so, back your arguments with something substantive and make a case.

There is nothing more offensive than seeing silly childish attacks on somebody because you do not agree with their opinions.

Grow up; show you have some level of maturity or depart.
 
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jackchit,

Are you aware of the concept of an ad hominem argument?

If a tour guide told you the earth was round, and a geologist told you it was flat - which would you believe? The geologist because he's a geologist, or the tour guide because he's right?
 
Jackchit certainly seems fixated on Gravy, devoting his time to gay myspace spoofs, he talks of little else.
Is it just some warped version of unrequited attention seeking?
He is obviously desperate for Mark to respond in person, hence the attempts to belittle his profession.
You see this sort of behaviour in nurseries with young children competing for attention, any attention, and behaving badly to achieve it.
 
I think most people have missed a key point here.

jackchit said:
Yes there is a difference, I have never claimed to be a 911 expert but roberts has by offering himself for shows like the joke we have seen.
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Gravy did not offer himself up for a show, claiming to be an expert.

He was asked to consider doing shows like this, by many people, because there is so much respect for his ability to take claims, review the information and research the facts, then present back understandable and well balanced reports about those claims.
 
The Doc said:
jackchit,

Are you aware of the concept of an ad hominem argument?

If a tour guide told you the earth was round, and a geologist told you it was flat - which would you believe? The geologist because he's a geologist, or the tour guide because he's right?
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Actually Doc, that's Appeal to Authority. He's a Geologist so he must know what he's saying. Ad Hominen is saying, what would you know, you're just a Tour Guide.

Jack has done both, in fact he managed it in the same sentence.

remember the burden of proof is with you

D'oh, need to add Burden shifting to my list.....
 
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PhantomWolf said:
Actually Doc, that's Appeal to Authority. He's a Geologist so he must know what he's saying. Ad Hominen is saying, what would you know, you're just a Tour Guide.

Jack has done both, in fact he managed it in the same sentence.

remember the burden of proof is with you

D'oh, need to add Burden shifting to my list.....
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Ah true. My second question wasn't related to my first question though, but it definitely looked that way.

I wasn't intending to use the second question as an example of an ad hominem :( The two are closely related though :p
 
I wonder what the World Record for Logical Falacies in one sentence is, and if Jack is in the running for breaking it.
 
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