The supernatural

[heydarian saeed]

I’ve read it again, and all there is in post 3341 (apart from a bunch of waffle and handwaving) is a claim that God created the universe and life, and “will recreate the universe after its destruction”. These are not scientific discoveries, they are theological claims. They are not testable. And “god did it” is not a scientific explanation because it can be made to explain anything.

Please provide a specific future scientific discovery predicted by the Quran in sufficient detail for it to be scientifically tested.

Hi
Of course you are right. You want me to write a complete scientific article with its details about the claim of God in the Quran. But unfortunately, such a thing does not exist in Islamic society and Islamic governments. This is the fault of us Muslims and Islamic governments. But, from the point of view of reason and philosophy, there is no obstacle in this claim. And it is intellectually clear and correct. See, I have said it many times and I will repeat it again. These hypotheses, ideas and claims have been expressed by God in the Quran. There is no doubt about this. And God has entrusted the details and complete scientific discoveries to the scientists. And this has happened throughout history. That is, all the claims of the Qur'an that are from 14 centuries ago have been discovered and proven by scientists in recent centuries. And I have told you many examples of it.
Therefore, intellectually, these claims of God in the Qur'an were correct. And it is not rejected in any way. The full scientific article did not state the details. Because the Quran is not a scientific encyclopedia. Rather, it is an enlightening book to guide people. to reach happiness with the best approach in life. And this is completely reasonable and correct. And in some verses (approximately 2,500 verses out of 6,200 verses), he has only mentioned modern scientific points. To be a motivation for scientists. and discover it. This approach is completely correct in the Holy Quran. I hope you think about this matter fairly and without bias.
Many thanks

 

[Pixel42]

Of course you are right. You want me to write a complete scientific article with its details about the claim of God in the Quran. But unfortunately, such a thing does not exist in Islamic society and Islamic governments. This is the fault of us Muslims and Islamic governments.

No, it's because the Quran is not the word of God, and consequently contains no references to future scientific discoveries. You would understand this if you were able to think about the matter fairly and without bias. Unfortunately, to pinch a line from a recent episode of The Orville, "Your ability to reason has been compromised by your cultural upbringing".

 

[IanS]

Yes, you did:

Yes, you did:

Originally Posted by IanS View Post
Quote:
Saeed claims that the Quran contains clear descriptions of scientific discoveries. If this is the case, then people should have been able to use the Quran to identify the discoveries before they were made, and Saeed should be able to provide us with information about future discoveries.
Re the highlight (and to repeat) - Heydarian has done exactly what you are asking asking for!


I was asking for testable predictions regarding future scientific discoveries. You claimed that Saeed “has done exactly what [I was] asking asking for”. That’s why I asked you to link to a post that supports your claim.

No I did NOT! ... the highlight which you just produced and which you said that I did what you claimed, was not my words at al!! ... that highlight is what someone eles here posted (maybe you yourself??) ... but it's not mine!

 

[Mojo]

No I did NOT! ... the highlight which you just produced and which you said that I did what you claimed, was not my words at al!! ... that highlight is what someone eles here posted (maybe you yourself??) ... but it's not mine!

The highlighted text was originally posted by me, but highlighted by you in order to reply to it in this post. You were clearly claiming that Saeed had done exactly what I was asking for in the highlighted passage.

Can we take it that you are now withdrawing that claim?

 

[IanS]

Maybe we're going around in circles here but the point of what Mojo and I and some others have been saying is that now that Heydarian has provided correct translations of the Quran, all he needs to do is point to something in there that is so clear and so ground-breaking that it can be verified by modern experimental science. Hence references in this thread to dark matter or dark energy or my particular interest in superconductivity or anything else that physics or chemistry is inching towards. If it's been dictated into the Quran and is understandable to man as Heydarian claims, then let's cut out tens of billions of dollars and decades of research and go right to it.

OK, well I hope you & I are not going to fall out if I reply to the above, but (re. the highlight) - as I've explained probably a dozen or more times now, -

(1) he does not need to do what you say at all. Because his proof is already shown in hundreds of verses that described modern science in 630AD. So he does not need to give even proofs to prove-the-proofs that he's already given a hundred times over ... for him, it's already proved by all the science that he believes is described in the Quran, and he's told us exactly that probably 10 to 20 times or more in most of his 1000+ posts here, that means he's told us exactly that literally 10,000 times already ...

(2) what you asking for is what Pixel and Mojo first asked for, which is a prediction from the Quran, where he would claim some new discovery which is not yet known to science ... but as I said before, in that case he can just make any old claim and say it will be discovered and verified by science in 10 years time or 100 years time, by which date we will all have either forgotten about this thread or else all be long dead!


Obviously I am not defending him here. I am just pointing out what I think is a hopelessly weak line of attack against his claims. It's quite useless telling him that he needs to find a new scientific discovery in the Quran which may be verified by science in the future. You are not going to get anywhere at all by telling Heydarian that he must produce a verse from the Quran that describes something yet to be discovered by science … that's just giving him a free lunch.

 

[Mojo]

Hi
Of course you are right. You want me to write a complete scientific article with its details about the claim of God in the Quran.

I am asking you to test your hypothesis. You can do this by providing testable information about any discovery not yet known to science.

But unfortunately, such a thing does not exist in Islamic society and Islamic governments. This is the fault of us Muslims and Islamic governments. But, from the point of view of reason and philosophy, there is no obstacle in this claim. And it is intellectually clear and correct. See, I have said it many times and I will repeat it again. These hypotheses, ideas and claims have been expressed by God in the Quran. There is no doubt about this.

There is considerable doubt about this, because it is patently obvious that all you can do is twist the words of the Quran so that they fit your own understanding of what current scientific theories say - even when your own understanding of them is flat-out wrong. If the Quran actually contained the knowledge you claim it does, it wouldn’t be getting these things wrong.

And God has entrusted the details and complete scientific discoveries to the scientists. And this has happened throughout history. That is, all the claims of the Qur'an that are from 14 centuries ago have been discovered and proven by scientists in recent centuries. And I have told you many examples of it.
Therefore, intellectually, these claims of God in the Qur'an were correct. And it is not rejected in any way. The full scientific article did not state the details. Because the Quran is not a scientific encyclopedia. Rather, it is an enlightening book to guide people. to reach happiness with the best approach in life. And this is completely reasonable and correct. And in some verses (approximately 2,500 verses out of 6,200 verses), he has only mentioned modern scientific points. To be a motivation for scientists. and discover it.

Nope, all of these discoveries have been made independently of the Quran; you have just twisted the Quran to fit them after the event.

This approach is completely correct in the Holy Quran. I hope you think about this matter fairly and without bias.

You seem unable to do this; you betray an overwhelming desire for external validation of the Quran. Is it not enough for you in itself?

 

[Pixel42]

The only thing that might conceivably be gained by asking Heydarian to use the Qu'ran to predict a specific future scientific discovery is that he might finally realise how impossible it is, and hence was for all the things he is now stupidly reading into it with the benefit of hindsight. It's the longest of shots, but so is every other way of trying to get him to understand how misguided he is.

 

[Mojo]

(2) what you asking for is what Pixel and Mojo first asked for, which is a prediction from the Quran, where he would claim some new discovery which is not yet known to science ... but as I said before, in that case he can just make any old claim and say it will be discovered and verified by science in 10 years time or 100 years time, by which date we will all have either forgotten about this thread or else all be long dead!

No, what we are asking for is a testable claim. You seem to think that we mean a prophecy.

Obviously I am not defending him here.

It’s really not that obvious.

I am just pointing out what I think is a hopelessly weak line of attack against his claims. It's quite useless telling him that he needs to find a new scientific discovery in the Quran which may be verified by science in the future. You are not going to get anywhere at all by telling Heydarian that he must produce a verse from the Quran that describes something yet to be discovered by science … that's just giving him a free lunch.

No, you’re trying to give him a free lunch by excusing him from testing his hypothesis. Indeed, you have been claiming that he has already provided information to confirm his hypothesis.

 

[IanS]

The highlighted text was originally posted by me, but highlighted by you in order to reply to it in this post. You were clearly claiming that Saeed had done exactly what I was asking for in the highlighted passage.

Can we take it that you are now withdrawing that claim?

Good grief, NO!

Look, here is what you just posted -

Yes, you did:

Originally Posted by IanS View Post
Quote: Saeed claims that the Quran contains clear descriptions of scientific discoveries. If this is the case, then people should have been able to use the Quran to identify the discoveries before they were made, and Saeed should be able to provide us with information about future discoveries.
Re the highlight (and to repeat) - Heydarian has done exactly what you are asking asking for!


I was asking for testable predictions regarding future scientific discoveries. You claimed that Saeed “has done exactly what [I was] asking asking for”. That’s why I asked you to link to a post that supports your claim.


I already told you in the clearest imaginable terms, several times over, that Heydarian has indeed been doing exactly what you are asking him for – he says that modern-day science was already predicted/revealed in the Quran by 630AD, and that it has only now been discovered by modern science 1200 to 1400 years later! That's his constant claim in every one of his 1000+ posts … do you really fail to understand that?

Eg according to Heydarian, Evolution was predicted in the Quran by 630AD ... you are asking him to show that to be, and I quote you "a testable prediction of a future scientific discovery" ... well that WAS a future discovery (1200 years future to the Quran), and you are asking him to show that discovery of evolution is "testable" ... but of course science has tested and verified that discovery ... in his mind, and in his claims, the Quran predicted evolution (and hundreds of other scientific "facts") in 630AD, then 1200 years later Darwin comes along and low-&-behold he verifies and tests exactly that prediction of Evolution ... and that's exactly what you are insisting he must do ... well he has already done it hundreds of times over!

 

[heydarian saeed]

The above is supposed to be a reply to my post directly above, but what you have written there has absolutely nothing to do with anything that I just said to you about science.

And the short highlighted bit which you ended with, just repeats again that in fact you have no intention ever of studying to learn what science really says, and why science shows that you are completely wrong!

When you make posts like that, and you have done exactly that well over 100 times here already, it just shows everyone that it's complete & quite blatant lying from you when you say that you want to learn more about modern science & understand how it shows that your religious beliefs are wrong (you are absolutely not willing to do that ... the only thing you have ever been willing to do is to keep preaching fanatical Islamic religious devotion regardless of everything that we now "know" from science (and that sort of religiosity is dangerous ... very dangerous!)

Hi
My words - the religion of Islam and the Qur'an are not dangerous. And it is not dangerous at all. Please do not make atmosphere. And don't poison the discussion space. Religion and the Bible are not responsible for explaining scientific and technological details. Rather, it only refers to a scientific matter. So that scientific and searching people can be motivated. and seek to discover the scientific material mentioned in the Qur'an. and discover it in all its details. This is a very modern and up-to-date type of management. Management of motivating people. Do not look for details and completely scientific articles in the Quran. Because this is not the duty of the Qur'an. The duty of the Quran is to show you the right way. and "mention" to the modern scientific point. The rest is up to the scientists. This is not difficult to understand. Please don't make it complicated.
Unfortunately, I have to say that you and other friends are only looking to poison the correct discussion.
There is no lie in my Quranic discussions. The Quran is completely honest and clear. Your effort is completely futile. And your logic and reasoning is just scandalous. "You cannot deny the modern scientific content in the Qur'an in any way. The Quran speaks completely logically, intellectually and philosophically. It also refers to modern science. The details of the scientific paper are the responsibility of the scientists. Discovering scientific content in the Quran is the responsibility of scientists. The Qur'an only refers to scientific matters. and expresses it. This work of Quran is the best gift to humanity. "Of course, I have no expectations from you and other friends in this forum of professional skeptics. Because you are unbelievers. I hope you only think logically and wisely. and talk.
Please put aside your blind prejudice. It is not difficult. be free be free be free

Good luck

 

[heydarian saeed]

No, it's because the Quran is not the word of God, and consequently contains no references to future scientific discoveries. You would understand this if you were able to think about the matter fairly and without bias. Unfortunately, to pinch a line from a recent episode of The Orville, "Your ability to reason has been compromised by your cultural upbringing".

Please be moderate in denying the facts. Can you deny the historical identity of an old text like the Holy Quran? In no way can you deny the historical identity of the Qur'an. And there are completely rational, philosophical and scientific reasons that no one but God can have said the contents of the Qur'an. If you have a rational-scientific and philosophical reason to deny this article, please provide it. And don't talk. Just don't deny it with your words. This approach of yours is not correct at all. You deny yourself and your identity with this procedure. Please be reasonable. And think wisely and then speak. Do you deny "history"?!! Are you a "denier of logic"?! Are you a "philosophy denier"?! Are you a "denier of reason"?! If your answer to these questions is yes. So you deny your own existence. And you don't exist at all.
Please think better.
I like and love you.

 

[Mojo]

Good grief, NO!

Look, here is what you just posted -

Yes, you did:

Originally Posted by IanS View Post
Quote: Saeed claims that the Quran contains clear descriptions of scientific discoveries. If this is the case, then people should have been able to use the Quran to identify the discoveries before they were made, and Saeed should be able to provide us with information about future discoveries.
Re the highlight (and to repeat) - Heydarian has done exactly what you are asking asking for!


I was asking for testable predictions regarding future scientific discoveries. You claimed that Saeed “has done exactly what [I was] asking asking for”. That’s why I asked you to link to a post that supports your claim.


I already told you in the clearest imaginable terms, several times over, that Heydarian has indeed been doing exactly what you are asking him for – he says that modern-day science was already predicted/revealed in the Quran by 630AD, and that it has only now been discovered by modern science 1200 to 1400 years later! That's his constant claim in every one of his 1000+ posts … do you really fail to understand that?

But that isn’t what I have been asking for, as should be obvious if you read what I have posted.

I know that that is his claim. But the evidence he has provided for it is inadequate because it amounts to nothing more than distorting the Quran to fit his conceptions (and misconceptions) of modern science.

So far he has, from his observation that the text of the Quran can be twisted to look a bit like vague descriptions of more recent scientific discoveries, arrived at the hypothesis that the Quran contains scientific revelations. He cannot use the retrofittings to test the hypothesis because they are the data he has based it on; he needs new data.

If, as he claims, the Quran contains future scientific discoveries, then it should be possible to find currently unknown discoveries in the Quran. That is what his hypothesis implies, and what I am asking for.

If it turns out that the Quran can only ever be twisted into vague descriptions of what we already know, then the inference we can draw from this should be obvious.

Eg according to Heydarian, Evolution was predicted in the Quran by 630AD ... you are asking him to show that to be, and I quote you "a testable prediction of a future scientific discovery" ... well that WAS a future discovery (1200 years future to the Quran), and you are asking him to show that discovery of evolution is "testable" ... but of course science has tested and verified that discovery ... in his mind, and in his claims, the Quran predicted evolution (and hundreds of other scientific "facts") in 630AD, then 1200 years later Darwin comes along and low-&-behold he verifies and tests exactly that prediction of Evolution ... and that's exactly what you are insisting he must do ... well he has already done it hundreds of times over!

No, he is just retrofitting the text to later discoveries. The Quran didn’t predict the scientific discoveries until it was “reinterpreted” to fit them after the event. He needs to demonstrate that the Quran predicted the discoveries before they were made by other means. The simplest and least ambiguous way to do this would be to make a testable prediction regarding something currently unknown to science.

 

[Mojo]

Eg according to Heydarian, Evolution was predicted in the Quran by 630AD ... you are asking him to show that to be, and I quote you "a testable prediction of a future scientific discovery" ... well that WAS a future discovery (1200 years future to the Quran), and you are asking him to show that discovery of evolution is "testable" ... but of course science has tested and verified that discovery ... in his mind, and in his claims, the Quran predicted evolution (and hundreds of other scientific "facts") in 630AD, then 1200 years later Darwin comes along and low-&-behold he verifies and tests exactly that prediction of Evolution ... and that's exactly what you are insisting he must do ... well he has already done it hundreds of times over!

But the Quran didn’t make the prediction in 630AD, the ‘prediction’ was only made by fitting the Quran to it after the event.

 

[Mojo]

And there are completely rational, philosophical and scientific reasons that no one but God can have said the contents of the Qur'an.

Is God’s complete misunderstanding of the role of DNA one of those reasons?

 

[heydarian saeed]

OK, well I hope you & I are not going to fall out if I reply to the above, but (re. the highlight) - as I've explained probably a dozen or more times now, -

(1) he does not need to do what you say at all. Because his proof is already shown in hundreds of verses that described modern science in 630AD. So he does not need to give even proofs to prove-the-proofs that he's already given a hundred times over ... for him, it's already proved by all the science that he believes is described in the Quran, and he's told us exactly that probably 10 to 20 times or more in most of his 1000+ posts here, that means he's told us exactly that literally 10,000 times already ...

(2) what you asking for is what Pixel and Mojo first asked for, which is a prediction from the Quran, where he would claim some new discovery which is not yet known to science ... but as I said before, in that case he can just make any old claim and say it will be discovered and verified by science in 10 years time or 100 years time, by which date we will all have either forgotten about this thread or else all be long dead!


Obviously I am not defending him here. I am just pointing out what I think is a hopelessly weak line of attack against his claims. It's quite useless telling him that he needs to find a new scientific discovery in the Quran which may be verified by science in the future. You are not going to get anywhere at all by telling Heydarian that he must produce a verse from the Quran that describes something yet to be discovered by science … that's just giving him a free lunch.

Hi
The duty of humans is to research to discover scientific facts wherever they are said. and try to discover it. and spend money to achieve it. In the Qur'an, he only mentions the contents of modern science. to motivate And humans discover it. This is an outstanding and modern type of management.
Besides, I have no need for a free lunch. I invite you all to a ceremonial lunch anywhere in the world you want. In addition, a happy and beautiful celebration...

 

[Mojo]

Hi
The duty of humans is to research to discover scientific facts wherever they are said. and try to discover it. and spend money to achieve it. In the Qur'an, he only mentions the contents of modern science. to motivate And humans discover it. This is an outstanding and modern type of management.

Then why didn’t it describe them until you changed its wording after the discoveries were made?

 

[heydarian saeed]

I am asking you to test your hypothesis. You can do this by providing testable information about any discovery not yet known to science.




There is considerable doubt about this, because it is patently obvious that all you can do is twist the words of the Quran so that they fit your own understanding of what current scientific theories say - even when your own understanding of them is flat-out wrong. If the Quran actually contained the knowledge you claim it does, it wouldn’t be getting these things wrong.




Nope, all of these discoveries have been made independently of the Quran; you have just twisted the Quran to fit them after the event.




You seem unable to do this; you betray an overwhelming desire for external validation of the Quran. Is it not enough for you in itself?

Hello
Your impression is completely wrong. No illogical word is said in the Quran. The words of the Quran are completely logical and scientific. My translation for the scientific verses of the Quran is completely correct and clear. Your twisting this issue for your illogical reasons is completely wrong. Please be reasonable. And argue wisely. Your arguments for Quranic content are completely weak and without content. The scientific content is clearly stated in the Quran. And there is no doubt about it.

 

[Mojo]

The words of the Quran are completely logical and scientific. My translation for the scientific verses of the Quran is completely correct and clear.

You have provided no evidence for this. In fact, the vague and sometimes flat-of wrong statements you claim to have found in the Quran are evidence that this is not the case.

If “the words of the Quran are completely logical and scientific”, and your “translation for the scientific verses of the Quran is completely correct and clear”, then you will be able to provide testable predictions about scientific discoveries before those discoveries are made by scientists. If you can’t, we can reasonably conclude that your claims are false, and there are no actual scientific revelations in the Quran.

So come on, let’s have a testable prediction about a future scientific discovery.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Then why didn’t it describe them until you changed its wording after the discoveries were made?

The Quran has described the phrases well and completely. and described it beautifully in the previous 14 centuries. Unfortunately, we Muslims did not pay attention. And we did not translate correctly. The problem is with the translation of us Muslims, not with the Qur'an. Unfortunately, Muslims are still reading the old translations of the Koran. And they do not update the translations. Because their knowledge in this regard is low. And on the other hand, they don't try. And the governments do not pay attention to this important issue because of other political issues. Other issues are important to them. The Quran has always been oppressed throughout its history. My translation is up to date. And I will do my best for this issue. And I have no fear.

 

[heydarian saeed]

You have provided no evidence for this. In fact, the vague and sometimes flat-of wrong statements you claim to have found in the Quran are evidence that this is not the case.

If “the words of the Quran are completely logical and scientific”, and your “translation for the scientific verses of the Quran is completely correct and clear”, then you will be able to provide testable predictions about scientific discoveries before those discoveries are made by scientists. If you can’t, we can reasonably conclude that your claims are false, and there are no actual scientific revelations in the Quran.

So come on, let’s have a testable prediction about a future scientific discovery.

Unfortunately, you do not pay attention to my words. And you repeat yourself.
let's move on ...
What is your scientific prediction of the future that has yet to be discovered? tell me please