heydarian saeed
Graduate Poster
thanks for your kindness. Thank you very much for your guidance.
The supernatural
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thanks for your kindness. Thank you very much for your guidance.
I already explained some of the most relevant parts of that to you much earlier in this thread. You did not want to know. You either ignored it, or at other times you replied by preaching your own religious beliefs that had nothing at all to do with science in general or with quantum theory in particular ...
.... eg, I already explained to you why there was no singularity at the point of the Big Bang ... but you still continued to claim that science "cannot explain the single" ... that is embarrasingly laughable from you ... but it also shows that you have no idea of what quantum cosmology is or what it has shown to us.
All your claims here are about finding science in the Quran. But as you have just admitted, you know almost nothing about science at the essential research level of core physics, chemistry, biology & maths. IOW - you are woefully under-qualified to claim to us that you have found scientific claims in the Quran.
And on top of that you have spent over 1000 posts and a whole year here entirely refusing to learn the science ... you are refusing precisely because the results from that science are incompatible with your religious beliefs. That is - science clearly shows why your claims & beliefs are completely untrue.
heydarian saeed
Graduate Poster
Hello, dear philosopher
Nice to see you again.
Islam and Quran are new and new. Because all his words are new and modern. Do you know what the problem is, dear philosopher?! There is nothing wrong with the Quran and Islam. no not at all.
The problem is with us Muslims. We were never looking for this and we are not looking at the Qur'an and Islam from a scientific point of view. We were always looking for comfort. And we only accept baseless superstitions that are free and convenient. And we do not make any effort to update the Quran and Islam. Behind this ugly scene that you see, there are even uglier policies.
You also look at Islam and the Qur'an with such an approach. But it is not true.
I am not looking for your and Muslims' view of Islam and Quran. I am not looking for the policy of Islamic governments to implement Islam and their self-made Quran. None of this satisfies me. For at least 30 years, I have been struggling to translate and understand Islam and the Quran. And then act on it. I am not a mere imitative follower of Islam. I do not see the translation of similar verses of the Quran as superstitions. The translation and interpretation of the Qur'an must be up to date. This is not my slogan but my faith. I believe in my word that the Quran should be translated up to date. And I will do my best. And I give my life for the Quran. I am not a superstitious old religious Muslim. Do not be mistaken. I just posted my photo for you to see. I do not look like a Muslim. I look like you. I love science like you. I love scientific and up-to-date Quran.
Islam and the Qur'an are truly up-to-date and modern religions and scriptures. But Muslims are oblivious. Their heads are only buried in the skin of imitation and superstition. I do not follow such an ugly approach. I am a free and up-to-date Muslim with modern science. And with this approach, I look at and translate Islam and the Qur'an. And I believe that this approach is the right way. The rest is rejected.
Thank you for looking at my words with tact and thinking. And you reason, thank you very much.
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
Islam and the Qu'ran were translated and understood centuries ago. There is nothing new to be learned from them. Any time wasted on them is time that could be better spent translating and understanding much more worthwhile books. Books that contain actual knowledge.
You must learn your lessons well. Do not be such a lazy student. Your words are all rejected, out of date, and everyone agrees. It is proved against you. And it is known. And everyone knows. What a shame you are. Never mind. Take rest. You need to rest. Do not keep fleeing like a tiny insect in the dirt at our feet.
Thank you. Have a nice day.
Mojo
Mostly harmless
I’ve read it again, and all there is in post 3341 (apart from a bunch of waffle and handwaving) is a claim that God created the universe and life, and “will recreate the universe after its destruction”. These are not scientific discoveries, they are theological claims. They are not testable. And “god did it” is not a scientific explanation because it can be made to explain anything.
Please provide a specific future scientific discovery predicted by the Quran in sufficient detail for it to be scientifically tested.
The above is supposed to be a reply to my post directly above, but what you have written there has absolutely nothing to do with anything that I just said to you about science.
And the short highlighted bit which you ended with, just repeats again that in fact you have no intention ever of studying to learn what science really says, and why science shows that you are completely wrong!
When you make posts like that, and you have done exactly that well over 100 times here already, it just shows everyone that it's complete & quite blatant lying from you when you say that you want to learn more about modern science & understand how it shows that your religious beliefs are wrong (you are absolutely not willing to do that ... the only thing you have ever been willing to do is to keep preaching fanatical Islamic religious devotion regardless of everything that we now "know" from science (and that sort of religiosity is dangerous ... very dangerous!)
Can we make sure that it's something predicted to happen in the next few weeks? Because otherwise Heydarian can simply that X, Y & Z will happen 100 years from now, by which time Heydarian and the rest of us will all be dead anyway so that nobody could ever check!
Also, isn't it more than enough already to know that since the dawn of time all sorts of religions have prophesied countless future events, and none of the claims have ever come true! So Heydarian has to do far better than just repeating that old silly nonsense.
But far simpler than any of that - Heydarian is making claims of modern science revealed in the Quran from 600AD. But apparently he cannot produce a single genuine peer reviewed science reserach paper that finds any evidence of any such thing whatsoever. And that's actually the end of the road for any of his claims about science in the Quran.
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
He should have stuck to the classic ones, like the Sun rising from the west because of the swap of the magnetic poles.
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Guess who's not paying attention...
Mojo
Mostly harmless
No, it just needs to be a specific and precise enough prediction to allow an experiment to test it to be devised.
But then he can’t produce anything like that from his retrofitting either, just things that sound vaguely like scientific discoveries, when they aren’t just plain wrong.
Well suppose he simply says the prophecy will come true 100 years from today ... how you going to show it did not happen?
You still have not answered this question:
- Was it scientific that Allah had to do the job of blowing in his girlfriend Mary's فرج so that she becomes pregnant with Jesus??
- Why do the job of blowing into anything... could he not just say be and it be??
- Why all this to make Jesus... couldn't Jesus have had a human mother and father just like Moses or David or Elijah or any other PROPHET in the Quran... what is so special about Mary and Jesus that Allah needed to do this sordid act in order to make a run of the mill prophet???
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Mojo
Mostly harmless
That’s the sort of thing he’s trying to get away with with the ‘goddiddit’ stuff and the claim that god will “recreate the universe after its destruction”. But these are not scientific predictions, they are religious prophecies. That isn’t the sort of scientific prediction he is claiming the Quran makes.
He’s talking about scientific discoveries, not prophecies. He needs to come up with a new scientific hypothesis, and that would be something that would be testable now; as soon as we knew about the new scientific discovery people could come up for ways to test it. For example, if we were discussing this at a time when phlogiston theory was still current, the hypothesis that combustion is a process in which the substance burning combines with a gas in the air, rather than releasing something the substance contains, would do. The prediction would be that the products of combustion weigh more, rather than less, than the starting substance.
So come on, Saeed. Give us a testable hypothesis, not known to current science, that is described in the Quran.
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Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
It's a good way of demonstrating the difference between predicting and retrofitting, the latter of course being all that he can actually do, but I hold out little hope that he will understand it, let alone its implications for the validity of his approach.
Well I don't think any of us should waste time disagreeing with one-another, because that just gives Heydarian even more encouragement to keep making scientific claims that are completely rejected by real actual published science. However ...
... re that highlight - I think you are wrong there. What Heydarian is claiming is, not any "new hypotheses" ... He's very clearly claiming that the Quran already contained all these descriptions of modern day science in 600AD! He says, it's already all there in the Quran! He is NOT claiming to come up with anything new ...
... some of the things he has claimed have yet to happen, Eg., he claimed that a particular named & known comet would wipe out the Earth very soon., ie he says that is revealed in the Quran, so that's effectively a prophecy because it has not yet come to pass, and he says that it will happen some time soon, though he's vague about whether that will be this year, next year, or some other year.
So he is mainly talking about hundreds (he says "hundreds") of well known scientific discoveries made since about the time of Darwin (1859), and saying all of those discoveries were already described in the Quran from 600AD. And he has also mentioned a few things that are effectively prophecies of future events, such as that Comet.
He is not trying to invent or claim his own hypothesis which, as you said, "that would be something that would be testable now;" ... he's not doing anything like that at all. So there is no value in insisting that he must now do that. On the contrary, he is claiming that it's all already in the Quran ... and he's told us what that is.
If there is a new scientific discovery next week (or whenever), then he can (and probably will!) look in the Quran to see if he can find some words that look like a "prophecy" of that new discovery ... and he will then claim it was already in the Quran. But until that new discovery is actually made by science, he is not claiming to know what it is.
So, I think there is no mileage at all in this line of demands put to Heydarian. He simply has to say it can all be found in the Quran. And where, and IF, he claims there is a future prophecy in certain verses of the Quran, then he can just say that it's guaranteed by God to happen at some quite vague date many years from now! So, that's useless as a way for us to to try to pin him down on anything like that.
That's why I have repeatedly asked him to produce any genuine real peer-reviewed published science papers that claim (as he is claiming) to find evidence that the Quran did indeed foretell all of modern science (or even ANY of modern science) in 600AD. That's absolutely crucial that he MUST do that. Why? OK, I'll spell it out again -
(1) Heydarian is claiming that in 600AD the Quran described explanations about the world which have only become known to us via modern-day science over the last 150 year or so. OK, so he is making a claim about actual published peer-reviewed science (such as Evolution, QM, Relativity, Big Bang etc). That means he MUST produce published peer-reviewed papers that support his claim by saying that it is indeed all described in the Quran!
(2) Why peer-reviewed published papers only? The answer is that, that IS what counts as genuine science research. That's where all research results are published. That's the entire aim for all research scientists – to publish the work as a peer-reviewed “Paper” .. that's what science IS.
(3) Why would any papers bother to say that they knew it was all in Quran? Would scientists just accept that and never bother to mention it? NO! Absolutely not LoL! That would be the most important and astonishing discovery ever in the entire history of Mankind if scientists really knew and agreed that the Quran contained descriptions of scientific discoveries that had only become known to science in the last 150 years (or however long you want to take). It would be the ONLY topic of research for every scientist in the world … it would be the main focus of every Paper ever published … and yet, Heydarian apparently cannot find even one genuine peer-reviewed published research paper making even the most vague microscopic hint of any such revelations in a 600AD religious book! Not even one such paper out of all the several milion published since Darwin in the mid 1800's.
(4) Instead what science has discovered, and published, is in every single case entirely natural causes from fully understood chemical and physical reactions, and that fully explains all of modern science … that's everything we know about the entire universe … ie So far, out of maybe 10 million papers, describing everything known to Mankind, all 10 million find no evidence for any God or anything in the Quran at all.
OK, so that, point by point, is why it's essential for Heydarin to produce real peer-reviewed published papers when is claiming to find in the 600AD Quran the results known to us from “published peer-reviewed” science! If he has not got all those real peer-reviewed papers, then hasn't got a case!
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Mojo
Mostly harmless
Indeed, he’s claiming that it’s all already in the Quran. But the fact that it stops with what he could learn from sources other than the Quran is a clear indication that he is wrong.
His hypothesis is that the Quran contains scientific knowledge that is not yet known to science. To test the hypothesis, he needs to try to come up with future scientific knowledge that is described in the Quran but not yet known to science. If he can’t do this, the null hypothesis (that the Quran does not contain such knowledge) is not falsified.
In other words he’s just retrofitting, and the alleged knowledge in the Quran does not even rise to the level of “do notte buye betamacks.”
By the way, just picking-up on what Pixel says above - Heydarian is of course retro-fitting modern science to what he thinks can be found in the Quran (though, to do that he has to invent his own new translations of the Quran!) ...
... but that's why on previous pages I also asked him to produce evidence of any Muslims describing any modern science BEFORE scientists had already announced it to the world. Eg Hubble and several others showed in the 1920's that the universe is expanding, but when did anyone claim that information was already in the Quran? ... did they make that claim before the 1920's, or did they only start saying it long after science had already told the world about it? ...
... I asked Heydarian that repeatedly (with several such examples), but he never addressed or answered that at all ... instead he just came back with a page of very general preaching praising and eulogising God and the Quran.
Of course the problem is that when Heydarian is asked difficult questions like that, for which he has no honest answer, he will just change the subject with a mass some other religious preaching about the glory of God. And the obvious problem with that is that it's simply not an honest genuine way of interacting with us … though it is a way for him to keep preaching his beliefs indefinitely.
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OK, well just as a last word on that (probably!), because I want to avoid any disagreeemnt here between ourselves - the problem with that highlight is that Heydarian is not claiming that nothing new awaits for him/Islam/anyone still to be discovered in the Quran. He has never ruled out finding new discoveries in the Quran that match to new science found in the future ... on the contrary, he thinks, and talks as if, that will certainly always happen for anying that sceince ever discovers ..
... and he is also not claiming to have found any of that in the Quran. He's just concentrating entirely & only upon what he thinks he has found so far as the results of modern science revealed by a 7th century Quran.
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Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
The point that's worth making to him (in the unlikely event he can grasp it) is that's all he's doing because it's all he can do. And it's entirely worthless, because retrofitting proves nothing.
His argument would be millions of times more convincing if he could point to a single example of a scientific discovery being predicted by the Qu'ran before it was made. Either an example from the past of someone using the Qu'ran to predict a specific discovery that was later confirmed, or someone today using it to predict a specific discovery that is then confirmed. But he can't do that because there are no scientific discoveries predicted in the Qu'ran, his desperate and deluded attempts to read them into it notwithstanding.
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