The supernatural

[heydarian saeed]

1678... For hadiths, refer to the following site. Contains 156 authentic sources for hadiths. For example: Allameh Majlisi - Allameh Amini - Al-Wafi Feyz Kashani.

https://wiki.ahlolbait.com

To study the history of Islam, refer to sources such as: Muntah al-Amal by Abbas Qomi - Forough Eternity and Forough Velayat by Jafar Sobhani - Yaqubi History - Tabari History.
For the authoritative Shiite books and the study of Islam and the Qur'an, refer to the following site.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki List of authoritative Shiieh books
...

 

[heydarian saeed]

1678...But for the sake of content, I would like to say: I have told you various verses from the Qur'an that the reason for the rotation of the earth according to its orbit around the sun. All stars and planets have orbits. And each moves in its own circuit regularly. And this represents the great Creator. He created gravity. Please pay attention to the description of my next message. ...

 

[heydarian saeed]

... Verses 38 to 40 of Sura 36 refer to the movement and rotation of the sun in its orbits. In these verses, we are talking about the types of rotation of the sun (longitudinal and rotational) in its fixed orbit, not its rotation around the earth. Contrary to the belief of some biased and opponents of Islam and the Qur'an, it is an honor for the Qur'an to have referred to the various forms of the Sun's rotation years before the discovery of modern astronomy.
What ruled the scientific community about the heavens and the earth at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an and in the centuries before and after it was the theory of Ptolemy. Who considered the earth to be the center of the world. And he knew the stars and the sun in the heart of the crystal studs. And calculated the heavens in orbit around the earth. According to this theory, the physical universe consisted of nine nested constellations, and each higher constellation surrounded the lower planets and universes and was considered its mastermind.! ...

 

[heydarian saeed]

... The Qur'an rejects this theory in the above verses for two reasons:
First, the sun is constantly moving toward its base (or the sun is moving at its base), not the sun around the earth. It is not itself, but it is looking for its crystalline sky in motion.
Second: The sun and the moon each float in their own path. And have separate circuits.
According to these two points, the Qur'an not only does not agree with this theory, but also refers to what science has discovered today in a surprising way.
After the foundations of Ptolemy's hypothesis collapsed in the light of recent discoveries and the release of celestial bodies from the shackles of outer planets, the theory that the sun is stationary at the center of the solar system became stronger. And the whole solar system revolves around him like a butterfly. Here, too, there was no news of the sun moving toward or around a particular camp. Science advanced even further, and astronomical observations using very powerful telescopes proved that the sun had at least two motions:
...

 

[heydarian saeed]

... The motion is a state around itself and the transient motion of the entire solar system. Which orbits a specific point in the sky, or constellation, around the star Vega. In addition to apparent motion, the sun has real motion (galactic rotation). The movement of the sun around it at a speed of about one million and one hundred and thirty thousand kilometers per hour in space.
So far, three types of rotation and rotation have been proven for the sun, one of which, like the earth, has a "rotational state" of motion. In another, the solar system has a "longitudinal transition" motion within the Milky Way. And in the third round, it has a "rotational transition" with the entire Milky Way.
With the clarification of these astronomical facts and in returning to those verses mentioned, we say that the honorable verse "All in the heavens will glorify" Correspond.
They are certainly not compatible with the crystalline planets of Ptolemy, who nailed each of the planets in place. And it is exactly in line with what science has unveiled today; Also moving towards the "settled"; (Camp) is another reference to the movement of the sun towards the galaxy, and to say this is truly a miracle.
In Nahj al-Balaghah, Ali explains verse 38 of Sura 36 in Sermon 91. And confirms.
...

 

[heydarian saeed]

... There are other verses in the Qur'an that state very precise and scientific matters, contrary to what was prevalent in scientific and astronomical circles at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an, and confirm the above meaning. For example, in the past, scientists thought that the earth had a flat, stable surface on which the sun rose on one side and set on the other. But the Qur'an, in a very beautiful interpretation, assumes the earth to be spherical and says in verse 40 of Surah Ma'arij.
I swear by the Lord of the East and the West.
And in Sura 55, verse 17, God says the same thing again.
This interpretation may refer to different spatial easts and wests. Because according to the sphericity of the earth and the rotation of the earth around it, at any moment in one point of the earth, the sun sets from the eyes of those who are present in that point and rises in another place from the earth, and accordingly the number of zones This sphere exists east and west.
This interpretation can also refer to the east and west of time. Because we know that the earth's motion around the sun causes the sun to never rise or set for two consecutive days from a fixed point.
This difference between the East and the West, which is done in a very precise and calculated order, on the one hand causes the appearance of the four seasons of the year with all the blessings, and on the other hand causes the adjustment of heat, cold and humidity on the earth's surface. It regulates the lives of humans, animals and plants. Each of these is a sign from God and a sign from Him. ...

 

[heydarian saeed]

... I thank all of you, dear group, for your attention to my content. Please: Read and follow the content from the correct sources that I introduced. It is natural that there are deviations and superstitions in every religion and school. And in all schools and religions there are these forms. Therefore, it is necessary to refer to the principle of religion and the principle of the book of religion. And read the correct sources. I hope you understand what I mean.
Thank you

 

[heydarian saeed]

That's a cool argument, Scorpion. Impressive, especially if that logic is your own formulation; and in either case it is persuasive.

Not that this matters one way or the other, this is no different than producing evidenced-from-the-respective-books arguments about whether Smaug can fly faster and higher than Drogon. But still, just like soundly crafted arguments for or against Smaug can be impressive and can be appreciated, to that extent I'm impressed by and appreciate your argument.

What you say does seem conclusive evidence that the Quran does clearly state that the Sun goes round the Earth.

Unless heydarian can produce some good counter-argument that says otherwise? Some coherent argument, that is, not just some ex cathedra ipsedixitisms?

I researched and researched our friend's Scorpion article. And I answered it in detail in the above posts. I have only one question for you. Post 1660 was nothing more than a superstition. But you seem to like it. And you confirmed. My perception of your approach is twofold: either you are looking for superstitions instead of real evidence and truth. And you like superstitions. Or you warned me not to look for superstitions. I gave up my first impression. And I will tell you the second impression. I am never looking for superstitions. Be sure. cheers.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Cheers.

That's the thing with these discussions here. So much more interesting than simply telling each other, without any evidence, that we're right and the other's wrong, and so much better than consigning the other off to hell for disagreeing with us, is to simply and impersonally engage with the actual issues raised. This, methinks, is the first time you're doing that, heydarian.

Great, so let's keep the rest of it aside, and for now just settle this issue properly. (That is, let you and Scorpion settle it, the rest of us are just spectators, as far as this specific issue.)

Scorpion's presented you with a great argument, evidence and all, that shows that the Quran says the Sun goes around the Earth. Up to you now to provide good coherent counter-arguments. Or, if you can't, then to sportingly concede this issue at least to Scorpion.

We'll look on with interest. Have fun, both of you, and don't fight!



eta: Just to be clear, the thing about the Sun genuflecting to Allah, and Allah giving Him/Her/It (the Sun, that is) leave to go on with its business for now, etc. Scorpion's presented a pretty cool argument there.

Hi. Dear Professor. How are you ?! Make sure I'm up to date. And I love you all.
Especially Scorpion.

 

[heydarian saeed]

The posts directly above - 1656 (which refers you back to 1639 where I had already just given the answer for you), and 1657 and 1659. OK?



Edit to add - when you answer my question on whether or not you think God would be right & good if he deleiberately kills non-believers, be SURE to note what the moderator told us, and entirely avoid directing any threat of harm against any named individulas here.

OK sure. Sure. I have little opportunity now. I will check later. And I answer. Thank you

 

[heydarian saeed]

Hi, thanks. Yes it is my writings. I read the hadith and realized it clearly says the sun orbits the earth. The only way Muslims can deny it is if they reject the validity of the hadith. Because the Quran itself is less clear and says the sun swims in an orbit. But verse 36.38 says the sun goes to a resting place. This clearly means Muhammad thought the sun went under a flat earth and is reset to its starting place every dawn.

Yes. All celestial bodies move in their own orbit. And they are spinning. And the Qur'an says: They float in space. The term floating is the best meaning of the last word in verse 40 of Sura 36. And I answered your article in previous posts. You were right: this hadith from Sahih Bukhari is not approved by us. And it is superstition. Its correct principle is the same as verse 40 of Sura 36 - verse 40 of Sura 70 and verse 17 of Sura 55. These three verses answer correctly and scientifically. Read the different meanings of the verses carefully. Do not just read a meaning and an impression. Not enough. And be sure to read from the correct source. Good luck.

 

[heydarian saeed]

I am afraid I have to refute your elegant reply. The Quran clearly states that all you have to do to be cursed to eternal hellfire is be an unbeliever in Muhammad. In fact the Quran says the curse of God is on unbelievers at surah 2.161.

You say God is very kind. But the cruel verses about eternal hell show that according to the Quran he is a merciless monster.

Read verses 4.56 and 22.19 and 40.72 and then tell me God is merciful.

Consider the implications of having your skin burnt off and renewed and burnt off again for all eternity. And verse 72.23 makes plain it is for eternity.

You say exactly the verses of God's punishment in the Qur'an. And you are right. But you do not say the reason. Please examine what is the cause of God's punishment for man? And why does he suffer? It is certainly a great injustice to torment without reason. And it is far from justice. I do not think that: God is cruel. Or do injustice. See the cause of the torments. And tell. Also, if you are not in a group that is tormented, then do not worry. I told you what you said. I read and enjoyed. Especially since you accept God. I'm optimistic about you. And you will not be tormented. Do not worry.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

You say exactly the verses of God's punishment in the Qur'an. And you are right. But you do not say the reason. Please examine what is the cause of God's punishment for man? And why does he suffer? It is certainly a great injustice to torment without reason. And it is far from justice. I do not think that: God is cruel. Or do injustice. See the cause of the torments. And tell. Also, if you are not in a group that is tormented, then do not worry. I told you what you said. I read and enjoyed. Especially since you accept God. I'm optimistic about you. And you will not be tormented. Do not worry.

A nitwit snail could take that punk Mohamed in debate.

Let me know when any Muslim-majority nation will allow me to speak or write those words without retaliation, re-writes the miserable 1990 Cairo Declaration on Islamic (not human!) Rights, or allows for criticism of both Mohamed and the Koran. Until that time, know that you, as a proponent of a so-called "peaceful" ideology, are here benefitting from the freedoms and good graces that Islam denies all.

 

[Scorpion]

... Verses 38 to 40 of Sura 36 refer to the movement and rotation of the sun in its orbits. In these verses, we are talking about the types of rotation of the sun (longitudinal and rotational) in its fixed orbit, not its rotation around the earth. Contrary to the belief of some biased and opponents of Islam and the Qur'an, it is an honor for the Qur'an to have referred to the various forms of the Sun's rotation years before the discovery of modern astronomy.
What ruled the scientific community about the heavens and the earth at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an and in the centuries before and after it was the theory of Ptolemy. Who considered the earth to be the center of the world. And he knew the stars and the sun in the heart of the crystal studs. And calculated the heavens in orbit around the earth. According to this theory, the physical universe consisted of nine nested constellations, and each higher constellation surrounded the lower planets and universes and was considered its mastermind.! ...

Three of the translations below of surah 36.38 say the sun runs to a resting place. These confirm the hadith I quoted.

Sahih International: And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.

Pickthall: And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.

Yusuf Ali: And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.

Shakir: And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.

Muhammad Sarwar: how the sun moves in its orbit and this is the decree of the Majestic and All-knowing God;

Mohsin Khan: And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.

Arberry: And the sun -- it runs to a fixed resting-place; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing.

 

[Chanakya]

Hello. To answer the content of this post, I need to say an introduction. Although I have already said the same thing in the article and in the initial posts.
The Qur'an was sent to the people of the seventh century AD in the land of Saudi Arabia. Because people, according to their own understanding and culture, understand the concepts of the Qur'an. Therefore, phrases and words should be used to make them understandable. Therefore, the interpretations of the Qur'an are among the words that can be understood in human culture in the history of the seventh century and in the land of Saudi Arabia. On the other hand, for me, who lives in the twentieth century, it does not seem to have to be understood.
...

1678... The correct source of Bukhari is not very reliable due to the contradictions in mentioning the hadiths of the Prophet or other matters. And it is not acceptable to us. It is a superstition that you quoted from Sahih Bukhari in your message. As you know it is a superstition. We see superstitions like you. Please refer to our reliable sources.
However, even if we want to interpret the movement of the sun in the verses under discussion as meaning its movement around the earth, there will still be no objection to the Qur'an. Because in that case, it means the movement of the sun according to our sense and our vision as human beings.
Our authoritative sources: The Qur'an and its authentic interpretations such as the commentary of Ibn Abbas, the commentary of Makarem Shirazi and Allameh Tabatabai - Nahj al-Balaghah Ali - Sahifa Sajjadieh.
...

1678... For hadiths, refer to the following site. Contains 156 authentic sources for hadiths. For example: Allameh Majlisi - Allameh Amini - Al-Wafi Feyz Kashani.

https://wiki.ahlolbait.com

To study the history of Islam, refer to sources such as: Muntah al-Amal by Abbas Qomi - Forough Eternity and Forough Velayat by Jafar Sobhani - Yaqubi History - Tabari History.
For the authoritative Shiite books and the study of Islam and the Qur'an, refer to the following site.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki List of authoritative Shiieh books
...

1678...But for the sake of content, I would like to say: I have told you various verses from the Qur'an that the reason for the rotation of the earth according to its orbit around the sun. All stars and planets have orbits. And each moves in its own circuit regularly. And this represents the great Creator. He created gravity. Please pay attention to the description of my next message. ...

... Verses 38 to 40 of Sura 36 refer to the movement and rotation of the sun in its orbits. In these verses, we are talking about the types of rotation of the sun (longitudinal and rotational) in its fixed orbit, not its rotation around the earth. Contrary to the belief of some biased and opponents of Islam and the Qur'an, it is an honor for the Qur'an to have referred to the various forms of the Sun's rotation years before the discovery of modern astronomy.
What ruled the scientific community about the heavens and the earth at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an and in the centuries before and after it was the theory of Ptolemy. Who considered the earth to be the center of the world. And he knew the stars and the sun in the heart of the crystal studs. And calculated the heavens in orbit around the earth. According to this theory, the physical universe consisted of nine nested constellations, and each higher constellation surrounded the lower planets and universes and was considered its mastermind.! ...

... The Qur'an rejects this theory in the above verses for two reasons:
First, the sun is constantly moving toward its base (or the sun is moving at its base), not the sun around the earth. It is not itself, but it is looking for its crystalline sky in motion.
Second: The sun and the moon each float in their own path. And have separate circuits.
According to these two points, the Qur'an not only does not agree with this theory, but also refers to what science has discovered today in a surprising way.
After the foundations of Ptolemy's hypothesis collapsed in the light of recent discoveries and the release of celestial bodies from the shackles of outer planets, the theory that the sun is stationary at the center of the solar system became stronger. And the whole solar system revolves around him like a butterfly. Here, too, there was no news of the sun moving toward or around a particular camp. Science advanced even further, and astronomical observations using very powerful telescopes proved that the sun had at least two motions:
...

... The motion is a state around itself and the transient motion of the entire solar system. Which orbits a specific point in the sky, or constellation, around the star Vega. In addition to apparent motion, the sun has real motion (galactic rotation). The movement of the sun around it at a speed of about one million and one hundred and thirty thousand kilometers per hour in space.
So far, three types of rotation and rotation have been proven for the sun, one of which, like the earth, has a "rotational state" of motion. In another, the solar system has a "longitudinal transition" motion within the Milky Way. And in the third round, it has a "rotational transition" with the entire Milky Way.
With the clarification of these astronomical facts and in returning to those verses mentioned, we say that the honorable verse "All in the heavens will glorify" Correspond.
They are certainly not compatible with the crystalline planets of Ptolemy, who nailed each of the planets in place. And it is exactly in line with what science has unveiled today; Also moving towards the "settled"; (Camp) is another reference to the movement of the sun towards the galaxy, and to say this is truly a miracle.
In Nahj al-Balaghah, Ali explains verse 38 of Sura 36 in Sermon 91. And confirms.
...

... There are other verses in the Qur'an that state very precise and scientific matters, contrary to what was prevalent in scientific and astronomical circles at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an, and confirm the above meaning. For example, in the past, scientists thought that the earth had a flat, stable surface on which the sun rose on one side and set on the other. But the Qur'an, in a very beautiful interpretation, assumes the earth to be spherical and says in verse 40 of Surah Ma'arij.
I swear by the Lord of the East and the West.
And in Sura 55, verse 17, God says the same thing again.
This interpretation may refer to different spatial easts and wests. Because according to the sphericity of the earth and the rotation of the earth around it, at any moment in one point of the earth, the sun sets from the eyes of those who are present in that point and rises in another place from the earth, and accordingly the number of zones This sphere exists east and west.
This interpretation can also refer to the east and west of time. Because we know that the earth's motion around the sun causes the sun to never rise or set for two consecutive days from a fixed point.
This difference between the East and the West, which is done in a very precise and calculated order, on the one hand causes the appearance of the four seasons of the year with all the blessings, and on the other hand causes the adjustment of heat, cold and humidity on the earth's surface. It regulates the lives of humans, animals and plants. Each of these is a sign from God and a sign from Him. ...

... I thank all of you, dear group, for your attention to my content. Please: Read and follow the content from the correct sources that I introduced. It is natural that there are deviations and superstitions in every religion and school. And in all schools and religions there are these forms. Therefore, it is necessary to refer to the principle of religion and the principle of the book of religion. And read the correct sources. I hope you understand what I mean.
Thank you

I researched and researched our friend's Scorpion article. And I answered it in detail in the above posts. I have only one question for you. Post 1660 was nothing more than a superstition. But you seem to like it. And you confirmed. My perception of your approach is twofold: either you are looking for superstitions instead of real evidence and truth. And you like superstitions. Or you warned me not to look for superstitions. I gave up my first impression. And I will tell you the second impression. I am never looking for superstitions. Be sure. cheers.

Hi. Dear Professor. How are you ?! Make sure I'm up to date. And I love you all.Especially Scorpion.

heydarian, that's many posts, and a great many words, that seem only to be obfuscating the issue.

Scorpion's argument was crystal clear. (I don't know much --- in fact, I don't know anything at all, really --- about what your different scriptures say, right now I'm only directly reading from Scorpion's argument.)

Scorpion referenced a Hadith that quotes Muhammad as having said that every evening/night, the Sun presents itself to Allah, and Allah gives it/him (the Sun) leave to carry on on its path, and so it rises in the East. But one day Allah will command it/him (the Sun) to return the way it came, and so the Sun will then rise to the West instead.

What we can infer from the above is that clearly it is the Earth that the Quran speaks of the Sun as orbiting. (To rephrase that sentence more clearly, to ensure it survives the translation software: We can infer from the above paragraph that the Quran says the Sun goes around the Earth.) That reference is most assuredly NOT to its galactic path --- because reversing the Sun's galactic orbit wouldn't make the Sun rise in the West, relative to us here on Earth.

----------

Instead of obfuscating the issue with a deluge of words, just go Yes/No on the following:

1. Do you question the truth value of the Hadiths, that is, do you claim that some Hadith might, in some cases, be mistaken? Yes or No? No long essays, just Yes, or No?
   
   
2. Do you think Scorpion has quoted that particular Hadith correctly? Yes, or No? No long essays, just Yes, or No?
   
   
3. Assuming the answer to both of the above is Yes, then do you find the argument that Scorpion presents based on those premises, that argument that I've paraphrased above in my own words? Yes, or No? No long essays, just Yes, or No?
   

----------

Having ticked Yes, or No, to the above three questions, then feel free, afterwards, to hold forth on any "No" that you may have answered. After having first very clearly established your argument in very brief, then feel free to defend the specific points where you disagree with Scorpion.

(Don't worry, if you can present good counter-arguments to Scorpion, we'll be happy to acknowledge such. First, because that's the honest and straightforward thing to do. And second, because my interest in this is only abstract, impersonal: it makes no difference to me personally even if the Quran is not directly shown to be wrong on this, so that I'll have no qualms accepting your version if it so happens that that makes more sense.)

 

[Scorpion]

There is a verse in the Quran that says Allah brings the sun up in the east and defies an unbeliever to bring it up in the west. This also suggests Muhammad is saying the sun orbits the earth. Because the only way the sun could rise in the west is if the earth stopped rotating and rotated in the opposite direction, which would destroy everything on the planet. See verse 2.258 below.

Sahih International: Have you not considered the one who argued with Abraham about his Lord [merely] because Allah had given him kingship? When Abraham said, "My Lord is the one who gives life and causes death," he said, "I give life and cause death." Abraham said, "Indeed, Allah brings up the sun from the east, so bring it up from the west." So the disbeliever was overwhelmed [by astonishment], and Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.

Pickthall: Bethink thee of him who had an argument with Abraham about his Lord, because Allah had given him the kingdom; how, when Abraham said: My Lord is He Who giveth life and causeth death, he answered: I give life and cause death. Abraham said: Lo! Allah causeth the sun to rise in the East, so do thou cause it to come up from the West. Thus was the disbeliever abashed. And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

Yusuf Ali: Hast thou not Turned thy vision to one who disputed with Abraham About his Lord, because Allah had granted him power? Abraham said: "My Lord is He Who Giveth life and death." He said: "I give life and death". Said Abraham: "But it is Allah that causeth the sun to rise from the east: Do thou then cause him to rise from the West." Thus was he confounded who (in arrogance) rejected faith. Nor doth Allah Give guidance to a people unjust.

Shakir: Have you not considered him (Namrud) who disputed with Ibrahim about his Lord, because Allah had given him the kingdom? When Ibrahim said: My Lord is He who gives life and causes to die, he said: I give life and cause death. Ibrahim said: So surely Allah causes the sun to rise from the east, then make it rise from the west; thus he who disbelieved was confounded; and Allah does not guide aright the unjust people.

 

[Scorpion]

Do you question the truth value of the Hadiths, that is, do you claim that some Hadith might, in some cases, be mistaken? Yes or No? No long essays, just Yes, or No?

Chanakya, clearly Haydarian is claiming the hadith is superstition and is false.
But most mainstream Muslims regard the hadiths, Bukhari, and the hadiths called Muslim as authentic.

 

[Chanakya]

Chanakya, clearly Haydarian is claiming the hadith is superstition and is false.
But most mainstream Muslims regard the hadiths, Bukhari, and the hadiths called Muslim as authentic.

Oh, OK.

I just looked up the Wiki entry on Hadith, to see for myself just what those damn things are, exactly. And it does say clearly there that a majority of Muslims take them as authoritative. A majority, which means not all. heydarian, then, is probably one of that minority that doesn't.

If that's true, then sure, that's a legitimate loophole there, for him to claim your argument doesn't hold, absolutely.

(I suspect, though, that he wouldn't dare say this to his own countrymen! Those folks there don't take kindly to creative interpretations of their scriptures. What they're creative about is in what they do, physically, to apostates and to those who hold to iconoclastic versions of their faith.)


----------


Do you confirm that, heydarian? That you don't find the Hadith authoritative? Do you, then, reject the authority of all them, or just one or two of them?

 

[Lothian]

Do you confirm that, heydarian? That you don't find the Hadith authoritative? Do you, then, reject the authority of all them, or just one or two of them?

Or put it another way. Who will God roast in Hell for eternity, those who believe in the authority of the Hadith or those that don't?

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Or put it another way. Who will God roast in Hell for eternity, those who believe in the authority of the Hadith or those that don't?

I think the general rule is that god will roast in hell anyone who disagrees with whoever happens to be preaching at any particular time.

It is also worth noting that god clearly doesn't care enough about this to just appear and set the record straight.
Funny, that.