The supernatural

[Chanakya]

I have provided you with logical evidence that Muhammad was a liar not a prophet in post 1605.

He said the sun swims in an orbit, and he meant it orbits the earth.



The quran says the sun orbits the earth, therefore it is not from God.

when the quran says, at surah 21.33 and 36.40 and 36.38 that the sun has an orbit, Imams falsely claim this is a great revelation, because Muhammad knew the sun had an orbit in the galaxy. But the quran is actually saying the sun orbits the flat earth and is reset every dawn , and I can prove it with the following hadith.

Hadith Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dhar:

The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)

As can be seen it says that if the sun changed direction it would rise in the west. But if the sun changed direction in its orbit in the galaxy it would make no difference to the sun rising in the east, because it is the rotation of the earth that causes the appearance of the sun in the east. The hadith is clearly saying the sun orbits the earth, and it is a fuller explanation of verse 36.38 in the quran.

That's a cool argument, Scorpion. Impressive, especially if that logic is your own formulation; and in either case it is persuasive.

Not that this matters one way or the other, this is no different than producing evidenced-from-the-respective-books arguments about whether Smaug can fly faster and higher than Drogon. But still, just like soundly crafted arguments for or against Smaug can be impressive and can be appreciated, to that extent I'm impressed by and appreciate your argument.

What you say does seem conclusive evidence that the Quran does clearly state that the Sun goes round the Earth.

Unless heydarian can produce some good counter-argument that says otherwise? Some coherent argument, that is, not just some ex cathedra ipsedixitisms?

 

[heydarian saeed]

OK, well we have slowly teased out the bottom-line fact that you are simply a denier of science.

You cannot accept the science because it shows that you are wrong to believe in gods and religious books. Evolution for example, shows that you are completely wrong.

It's the same story from fundamentalist Christians. They also are forced to deny science (otherwise their religion collapses).

On the contrary, everything you say is drowning in 100% prejudice and blind religious faith.

You need to do the work to get yourself on a university science course in physics, chemisrtry or biology.

I love science. And I do not want to deny it in any way. Of course, I also accept God. And I do not want to deny God. Can you show me a way to be moderate? May God and science be both in this way. I'm very interested to see this way. And I will definitely go this way. We love God and science together. I do not like any of them alone. Do you understand what I mean? Thanks a lot

 

[heydarian saeed]

Hell is luxury. If you refuse to denounce your pathetic God and worship mine you will be forced after death to spend the rest of eternity watching 'Mrs Brown's boys'

I do not know Ms. Brown's sons. But I would like to know. Can you tell me who these are? Maybe I will accept that these are people with culture and civilization, I will be with them for a while. Please help me.

 

[heydarian saeed]

And if you're wrong, in my He'll you have to watch She's The Sheriff for eternity. And eternity has just been made 100 years longer[/Q

Hi. Play your song. I would love to get some fresh air. My ears need to be washed. I'm serious. Play please. Thanks a lot

 

[heydarian saeed]

I did exactly that in Post 1618 which is a detailed account of the story of Jesus brining a clay bird to life when he was a boy. I have supplied the references to this story which is stolen from a book of fables. This book of Jesus childhood is
know fiction. Yet there are two verses in the Quran about this story.

Hello. In the Qur'an there is the story of Jesus and the resurrection of the clay bird. And God said to Muhammad. To the Christians who asked him if he knew Jesus? Answer them with the same story in the Quran. In fact, the contents of Jesus are mentioned in the Qur'an. For those who are interested to read. And the answer of Christians. Because they mention Muhammad and the Qur'an in their book. They wanted to know that Muhammad and the Qur'an are true. Or he is lying. They got their answer with the verses of Jesus in the Qur'an. And they believed in Muhammad. Of course, they were of their own religion. But Muhammad was considered a prophet. Like their own prophet Jesus.
Therefore, the contents of Jesus in the Qur'an are not theft from the Bible. It is also explained in the Qur'an. It was revealed for the response and reassurance of the Christians of the time of Muhammad.
To convince Christians that Muhammad is the one whose name appears in the Bible. And the appearance of this prophet is predicted in the future. And now in the seventh century AD, Muhammad has come for human beings.
Therefore, Christians acknowledged Muhammad and the Qur'an.

 

[heydarian saeed]

The hell described in the Quran is not worthy of any kind of God. It would make him a deranged, sadistic monster.

I am probably the only other person on this thread other than you who believes in God. But the God I believe in does not burn his children in hell. If he did I would utterly despise him.

I am very happy to read this beautiful message from you. And I shake your hand with friendship and desire. And I'm proud that you accept God. See, dear friend, God does not throw any of His servants in hell. And it does not torment. And I have said this many times. God is very kind. And it always gives the opportunity to return and repent. As you said. Sinful human beings create hell with their ugly deeds and thoughts. And they themselves will enter hell. In the Qur'an, God tells the fate of bad people. That these human beings make themselves hell because of their evil deeds.
I am very eager to follow the discussion with you. If you have been insulted or disrespected. I am very sorry. And I expect you to respect my ideas. Thanks a lot

 

[heydarian saeed]

You are not talking to an atheist when you talk to me, I have had a lot of psychic experience, and many messages from my dead relatives. I know what happens after death. We go to the spirit world, and to a plane of experience that the evolution of our soul equips us for. For unevolved souls that have done evil, they will go to the dark regions, until such time as they repent and seek progression. But they will not burn in any kind of hellfire. Good souls go to brighter realms and remain there until they realize they cannot spiritually evolve any higher without more experience so they choose to reincarnate again.

Let me tell you what the spirits say:

There is no Satan, there is no hellfire, there will be no judgement day. We will evolve over thousands of incarnations, on this and other planets.

Eventually we will complete our cycle of incarnations and achieve a state of grace, after which we will remain in the spirit world as immortal beings.

We are all one great spiritual family of souls, and we are the immortal children of God.

I read your theory for ghosts and return - reincarnation and evolution. It was a very good idea. And I liked it at first. Let me examine further. And do research. I accept with open arms. Let me know if we have more content or resources. I am very eager to read.

 

[IanS]

I love science. And I do not want to deny it in any way. Of course, I also accept God. And I do not want to deny God. Can you show me a way to be moderate? May God and science be both in this way. I'm very interested to see this way. And I will definitely go this way. We love God and science together. I do not like any of them alone. Do you understand what I mean? Thanks a lot

Well, what about the questions I just asked you? You did not answer any of those did you?

Please answer those questions first (before I answer your question asking me to explain to you more about science).

Repeat - answer the previous questions first, please.

 

[heydarian saeed]

That's a cool argument, Scorpion. Impressive, especially if that logic is your own formulation; and in either case it is persuasive.

Not that this matters one way or the other, this is no different than producing evidenced-from-the-respective-books arguments about whether Smaug can fly faster and higher than Drogon. But still, just like soundly crafted arguments for or against Smaug can be impressive and can be appreciated, to that extent I'm impressed by and appreciate your argument.

What you say does seem conclusive evidence that the Quran does clearly state that the Sun goes round the Earth.

Unless heydarian can produce some good counter-argument that says otherwise? Some coherent argument, that is, not just some ex cathedra ipsedixitisms?

Hello. I'm also Review and research at this Scorpion Thanks.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Well, what about the questions I just asked you? You did not answer any of those did you?

Please answer those questions first (before I answer your question asking me to explain to you more about science).

Repeat - answer the previous questions first, please.

very well. Please post your questions again.

 

[Chanakya]

Hello. I'm also Review and research at this Scorpion Thanks.

Cheers.

That's the thing with these discussions here. So much more interesting than simply telling each other, without any evidence, that we're right and the other's wrong, and so much better than consigning the other off to hell for disagreeing with us, is to simply and impersonally engage with the actual issues raised. This, methinks, is the first time you're doing that, heydarian.

Great, so let's keep the rest of it aside, and for now just settle this issue properly. (That is, let you and Scorpion settle it, the rest of us are just spectators, as far as this specific issue.)

Scorpion's presented you with a great argument, evidence and all, that shows that the Quran says the Sun goes around the Earth. Up to you now to provide good coherent counter-arguments. Or, if you can't, then to sportingly concede this issue at least to Scorpion.

We'll look on with interest. Have fun, both of you, and don't fight!



eta: Just to be clear, the thing about the Sun genuflecting to Allah, and Allah giving Him/Her/It (the Sun, that is) leave to go on with its business for now, etc. Scorpion's presented a pretty cool argument there.

 

[IanS]

very well. Please post your questions again.

The posts directly above - 1656 (which refers you back to 1639 where I had already just given the answer for you), and 1657 and 1659. OK?



Edit to add - when you answer my question on whether or not you think God would be right & good if he deleiberately kills non-believers, be SURE to note what the moderator told us, and entirely avoid directing any threat of harm against any named individulas here.

 

[Scorpion]

That's a cool argument, Scorpion. Impressive, especially if that logic is your own formulation; and in either case it is persuasive.

What you say does seem conclusive evidence that the Quran does clearly state that the Sun goes round the Earth.

Unless heydarian can produce some good counter-argument that says otherwise? Some coherent argument, that is, not just some ex cathedra ipsedixitisms?

Hi, thanks. Yes it is my writings. I read the hadith and realized it clearly says the sun orbits the earth. The only way Muslims can deny it is if they reject the validity of the hadith. Because the Quran itself is less clear and says the sun swims in an orbit. But verse 36.38 says the sun goes to a resting place. This clearly means Muhammad thought the sun went under a flat earth and is reset to its starting place every dawn.

 

[Scorpion]

I am very happy to read this beautiful message from you. And I shake your hand with friendship and desire. And I'm proud that you accept God. See, dear friend, God does not throw any of His servants in hell. And it does not torment. And I have said this many times. God is very kind. And it always gives the opportunity to return and repent. As you said. Sinful human beings create hell with their ugly deeds and thoughts. And they themselves will enter hell. In the Qur'an, God tells the fate of bad people. That these human beings make themselves hell because of their evil deeds.
I am very eager to follow the discussion with you. If you have been insulted or disrespected. I am very sorry. And I expect you to respect my ideas. Thanks a lot

I am afraid I have to refute your elegant reply. The Quran clearly states that all you have to do to be cursed to eternal hellfire is be an unbeliever in Muhammad. In fact the Quran says the curse of God is on unbelievers at surah 2.161.

You say God is very kind. But the cruel verses about eternal hell show that according to the Quran he is a merciless monster.

Read verses 4.56 and 22.19 and 40.72 and then tell me God is merciful.

Consider the implications of having your skin burnt off and renewed and burnt off again for all eternity. And verse 72.23 makes plain it is for eternity.

 

[Chanakya]

I am very happy to read this beautiful message from you. And I shake your hand with friendship and desire. And I'm proud that you accept God. See, dear friend, God does not throw any of His servants in hell. And it does not torment. And I have said this many times. God is very kind. And it always gives the opportunity to return and repent. As you said. Sinful human beings create hell with their ugly deeds and thoughts. And they themselves will enter hell. In the Qur'an, God tells the fate of bad people. That these human beings make themselves hell because of their evil deeds.
I am very eager to follow the discussion with you. If you have been insulted or disrespected. I am very sorry. And I expect you to respect my ideas. Thanks a lot

heydarian, here you're telling Scorpion that "God does not throw any of His servants in hell". But you've told me, upthread, that God will never ever "forgive" polytheists, and that while even out-and-out criminals will find mercy from God, but polytheists never will.

How do you square this? Plenty of people are sincere in their polytheistic beliefs. They too are, to use your metaphor, servants of God. Yet your God will throw them in hell, or so you tell me. Don't you see a contradiction here?

Further, in response to you and your colleagues telling the polytheists that their sincere faith is blasphemous and unforgivable and a far worse sin than actual criminality, that just their believing what they do makes them worse even than criminals that do really terrible and heinous things, then can you really blame them (the polytheists) if they, in turn, tell you that it is you and your kind that are blaspheming against not only (their) God but also against humanity itself, and that it is you and your kind that will suffer the torments of hell for your sacrilegious --- and unnecessarily confrontational --- beliefs, and that it is you who worship a monster and follow a monstrous ideology? How can your kind of intolerant faith ever hope for peaceful coexistence with other kinds of faith?

Leave aside for now the fact that both you and the polytheists harbor unevidenced beliefs, but at least theirs (the polytheists' beliefs) are less confrontational, and thereby more peaceful, and to that extent more civilized than yours, don't you think?

 

[Scorpion]

I read your theory for ghosts and return - reincarnation and evolution. It was a very good idea. And I liked it at first. Let me examine further. And do research. I accept with open arms. Let me know if we have more content or resources. I am very eager to read.

I was first attracted to spiritualism after reading a book called 'the teachings of Silver Birch' After that I attended spiritualist churches where I received many evidential messages over the years. I also went to the spiritualist association in London and attended many trance lectures.

Trance lectures are when a medium allows themselves to be taken over by a spirit who then speaks through their mouths.

Here are some of the teachings of Silver Birch:


https://www.angelfire.com/ok/SilverBirch/Tcon.html


https://www.spiritualpathspiritualistchurch.org/spirit-guides-part-i-silver-birch/

 

[Chanakya]

Hi, thanks. Yes it is my writings. I read the hadith and realized it clearly says the sun orbits the earth. The only way Muslims can deny it is if they reject the validity of the hadith. Because the Quran itself is less clear and says the sun swims in an orbit. But verse 36.38 says the sun goes to a resting place. This clearly means Muhammad thought the sun went under a flat earth and is reset to its starting place every dawn.

You're most welcome, Scorpion. That's actually an excellent argument, doubly so in that, as you say, it is of your own formulation.

I note, though, that you seem to have clean left out the paragraph that I've highlighted and put in bold font below, without even putting in ellipses to suggest you're leaving something out --- possibly because you didn't like that part of what I'd said? It's true enough, and it would be intellectually dishonest to keep kicking at poor heydarian's ridiculous beliefs while sitting silently by while you try to gloss over the absurdity of yours.

That's a cool argument, Scorpion. Impressive, especially if that logic is your own formulation; and in either case it is persuasive.

Not that this matters one way or the other, this is no different than producing evidenced-from-the-respective-books arguments about whether Smaug can fly faster and higher than Drogon. But still, just like soundly crafted arguments for or against Smaug can be impressive and can be appreciated, to that extent I'm impressed by and appreciate your argument.
What you say does seem conclusive evidence that the Quran does clearly state that the Sun goes round the Earth.

Unless heydarian can produce some good counter-argument that says otherwise? Some coherent argument, that is, not just some ex cathedra ipsedixitisms?

But of course, your beliefs isn't what this thread's about, so yeah, back to your excellent argument, and we needn't dwell any more, here and now, on the fact that you're both of you chasing dragons' tails. Let's just count the ticks and blisters on heydarian's dragon for now.

 

[heydarian saeed]

I have provided you with logical evidence that Muhammad was a liar not a prophet in post 1605.

He said the sun swims in an orbit, and he meant it orbits the earth.



The quran says the sun orbits the earth, therefore it is not from God.

when the quran says, at surah 21.33 and 36.40 and 36.38 that the sun has an orbit, Imams falsely claim this is a great revelation, because Muhammad knew the sun had an orbit in the galaxy. But the quran is actually saying the sun orbits the flat earth and is reset every dawn , and I can prove it with the following hadith.

Hadith Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dhar:

The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)

As can be seen it says that if the sun changed direction it would rise in the west. But if the sun changed direction in its orbit in the galaxy it would make no difference to the sun rising in the east, because it is the rotation of the earth that causes the appearance of the sun in the east. The hadith is clearly saying the sun orbits the earth, and it is a fuller explanation of verse 36.38 in the quran.

Hello. To answer the content of this post, I need to say an introduction. Although I have already said the same thing in the article and in the initial posts.
The Qur'an was sent to the people of the seventh century AD in the land of Saudi Arabia. Because people, according to their own understanding and culture, understand the concepts of the Qur'an. Therefore, phrases and words should be used to make them understandable. Therefore, the interpretations of the Qur'an are among the words that can be understood in human culture in the history of the seventh century and in the land of Saudi Arabia. On the other hand, for me, who lives in the twentieth century, it does not seem to have to be understood.
...

 

[heydarian saeed]

1678 .... So how should I understand the current scientific content of this book? And man has realized this! Because of this; The author of the Qur'an has mostly used nature and many of its meanings are symbolic. That is, there is an example of it in nature and it points to an important point. It is better for man to search and study the meaning of the symbolic phrases of the Qur'an. There are many verses in the Qur'an that advise man to think, research and study the issues raised.
...

 

[heydarian saeed]

1678... The correct source of Bukhari is not very reliable due to the contradictions in mentioning the hadiths of the Prophet or other matters. And it is not acceptable to us. It is a superstition that you quoted from Sahih Bukhari in your message. As you know it is a superstition. We see superstitions like you. Please refer to our reliable sources.
However, even if we want to interpret the movement of the sun in the verses under discussion as meaning its movement around the earth, there will still be no objection to the Qur'an. Because in that case, it means the movement of the sun according to our sense and our vision as human beings.
Our authoritative sources: The Qur'an and its authentic interpretations such as the commentary of Ibn Abbas, the commentary of Makarem Shirazi and Allameh Tabatabai - Nahj al-Balaghah Ali - Sahifa Sajjadieh.
...