The supernatural

[MarkCorrigan]

Hi. Man Changer. Do not think childish. Regards and Thanks. Do you know that the Qur'an knows your logic well? And he said: Answer the ignorant with greetings. Hi

Yes yes, you disagree.

So do you not think that claiming god stamped wretchedness onto Jews is hateful?

Don't you think that commanding to kill non believers is violent?

You've still never properly addressed the fact that your holy book commands you to kill. You've attempted some handwaving to claim that it isn't meant for modern times but that doesn't hold water without actual evidence that's the case. All you've done is make claims. Again. Claims are not evidence.

 

[IanS]

His views are fair game for all and sundry. Telling a poster where to go because they are posting nonsense is not.

If you don't like what heydarian saeed is posting then the best way to deal with that is to deprive him of oxygen by not responding to his posts and letting this thread die a natural death. That will never happen though. The bigger the nutcase, the more posters who want to prove him wrong. I suspect that this thread will have at least 10 parts before the discussion dies (or heydarian saeed leaves).

And by the way (and I am NOT having a go at you, or criticising in any really strong way, what you've said) - several of us have made simple clear replies to heydarian, without mentioning any disagreement or opposition to him, where we just invited him to have a different sort of discussion that was open and without any preconceived beliefs or bias on either side, just to see if we could get an honest reasoned discussion to take place ... I've offered that to him 3 times in separate posts ... but I don't think he ever replied to any of those requests, or else if he did then it was just a reply with another set of long pages preaching I'jaz beliefs about miracles in the Koran. So ... shrug.

 

[psionl0]

Well you seem to be now calling heydarian a "nutcase" lol!

I don't think he's actually "a nutcase", if by that we mean mentally ill.

I think he's just an example of what religion does to people. Ie they almost inevitably have to fall into the dangerous absurdity of literally believing the most obviously nonsensical things.

As for how long the thread will go on ... well, who knows ... but what heydarian is trying to do is keep preaching huge tracts of I'jaz claims until everyone stops disagreeing with him or stops opposing him by asking him to explain how basic simple sentences that say not a single word about Pulsars or Black holes or quantum states, are actually a description of all those things given by God to a man named Mohamed in 600AD, and where that is known as a definite fact because we have it from God himself.

Do you think beliefs like that are dangerous? Because I do.

Do you think beliefs like that should be taught to children by way of insisting they are the very word of God? Because I don't believe children's minds should be insistently filled with stuff like that … I think that definitely is dangerous.

We are talking here about Islamic religious fundamentalism. Heydarian says he is NOT a fundamentalist, but the I'jaz claims that he's preaching clearly are fundamentalist … the whole point of these claims is that they are presented as a proof of God, and also a proof of the supremacy of Islam. That's really just another aspect of what has motivated all of the lethally dangerous fundamentalists of IS and Al-Q and all their many thousands of adherents in the UK and all over the EU who go around supporting or actually carrying out attempts at mass murder bombings etc. in London, Paris, Munich, Madrid etc. … they are equally fundamentalists in believing that God has called them to their Jihad mission against the “infidels” (just to quote heydarians own word for us as non-believers) where it is their religious duty to “behead those who insult Islam” (to quote from the banner that was waved around in London by one such group … and by the way, some time after that, a UK convert to Islam tried to do exactly that to an off-duty soldier in a London street) … the words and the preaching and the insistence on knowing the reality of almighty God, do have real consequences).

Should we just let people carry on preaching these beliefs? Preaching them insistently to young children? With what are now, 1-billion or more Muslims around the world? How many believe and preach and insist on fundamentalist stuff like this? I don't know how many, but it is apparently a large number within the Islamic faith … should we just turn a blind eye and not try to dissuade them from these things? I don't think so.

I am using the word "nutcase" in a more generic manner and am not trying to suggest that the nutcase is mentally ill.

Religious beliefs are not inherently dangerous unless they cause you to take radical and dangerous actions (like suicide bombing). People can believe anything they like and most are not a danger to the community because of their beliefs. In fact, many don't even act in accordance with their beliefs (few people stone homosexuals even though it is written in the bible). It is only when somebody seems likely to do a dangerous act that we need to intervene.

As for parents passing on their beliefs to their children, I would have a big problem with banning parents from taking their children to church or arranging religious instruction for their children. That is precisely what the first amendment is designed to prevent. My observation is that many posters here were brought up in accordance to their parents' religion. But people learn to think for themselves and most of these same people are now the biggest atheists on the forum.

If you are thinking about those who would radicalize children and push them towards murderous rampages then the leaders who would do that are not truly religious leaders. They are more Hitler types (pardon the Godwin) who are more interested in their own personal power base and their own twisted hatred. These people should be stopped at all costs.

And by the way (and I am NOT having a go at you, or criticising in any really strong way, what you've said) - several of us have made simple clear replies to heydarian, without mentioning any disagreement or opposition to him, where we just invited him to have a different sort of discussion that was open and without any preconceived beliefs or bias on either side, just to see if we could get an honest reasoned discussion to take place ... I've offered that to him 3 times in separate posts ... but I don't think he ever replied to any of those requests, or else if he did then it was just a reply with another set of long pages preaching I'jaz beliefs about miracles in the Koran. So ... shrug.

It's not the first time that a poster has seen a response - any response as an excuse to post a long winded sermon of their own choosing that bears no relation to the response given (assuming that they actually read the response).

Yes, I read those responses. All of them excellent rebuttals to the OP. The problem is that it was all done and dusted in the first few pages of this thread. The other 50 (and counting) pages are just pure flame fanning.

 

[IanS]

I am using the word "nutcase" in a more generic manner and am not trying to suggest that the nutcase is mentally ill.

Religious beliefs are not inherently dangerous unless they cause you to take radical and dangerous actions (like suicide bombing). People can believe anything they like and most are not a danger to the community because of their beliefs. In fact, many don't even act in accordance with their beliefs (few people stone homosexuals even though it is written in the bible). It is only when somebody seems likely to do a dangerous act that we need to intervene.

As for parents passing on their beliefs to their children, I would have a big problem with banning parents from taking their children to church or arranging religious instruction for their children. That is precisely what the first amendment is designed to prevent. My observation is that many posters here were brought up in accordance to their parents' religion. But people learn to think for themselves and most of these same people are now the biggest atheists on the forum.

If you are thinking about those who would radicalize children and push them towards murderous rampages then the leaders who would do that are not truly religious leaders. They are more Hitler types (pardon the Godwin) who are more interested in their own personal power base and their own twisted hatred. These people should be stopped at all costs.


It's not the first time that a poster has seen a response - any response as an excuse to post a long winded sermon of their own choosing that bears no relation to the response given (assuming that they actually read the response).

Yes, I read those responses. All of them excellent rebuttals to the OP. The problem is that it was all done and dusted in the first few pages of this thread. The other 50 (and counting) pages are just pure flame fanning.

OK, well we clearly have different views on how dangerous religion is. And particularly about whether or not it's a good thing that children are taught to follow religious belief in schools.

But I think we'd be taking the thread off topic if we carry on discussing that here. The discussion here is about whether or not God is proved by "Scientific Miracles in the Koran" ... whether people should believe that, and whether they should try to indoctrinate others (inc. Muslim children) with such beliefs.

I think it IS "childish" to believe those I'jaz claims of "Scientific Miracles in the Koran", and I think it's perfectly OK to say that to people who not merely believe it, but who are clearly preaching it constantly to all & sundry as a way of life (personally I think it's clearly much more than merely “childishly naive”, but we've just been through all of that & we obviously disagree, so I think that's enough of that for now).

 

[heydarian saeed]

What Imams have examined and approved your interpretations of these Quranic verses?

Hello. I'm glad to meet you. Please tell, what do you mean by our Imams? Or who do you mean? I am a Shiite Muslim of 12 Imams. Is that what you mean? Or do you suggest something else? Do you mean these 12 of our Imams, which one do you mean? To check. And answer. Thank you very much

 

[heydarian saeed]

Yes yes, you disagree.

So do you not think that claiming god stamped wretchedness onto Jews is hateful?

Don't you think that commanding to kill non believers is violent?

You've still never properly addressed the fact that your holy book commands you to kill. You've attempted some handwaving to claim that it isn't meant for modern times but that doesn't hold water without actual evidence that's the case. All you've done is make claims. Again. Claims are not evidence.

1- Hi dear friend. Do not be upset and worried. I have told you many times. That God and the Qur'an do not command to kill anyone. Those verses are about his own historical events. And not for our time. Of course, it is a lesson. If the situation is the same. The procedure is the same as the action. This is very easy to understand. I do not understand what makes you not understand this. And you insist on denying it. Tell me and friends. What are you suffering from?
2- The contents of the Quran are scientific. And it has a lot to offer for modern science. I have said the Qur'anic material in several messages that have been proven by scientists. Remember I said: " there is quantum correlation and invisible consciousness in all beings in the universe." And we have different verses in the Qur'an on this subject. And Professor Suarez has proved this by experimenting with photons. The subject of "teleportation" is mentioned in at least three places in the Qur'an.
That Professor Roger Penrose has proved this position. I have provided you with objective evidence and valid experiments from respected Western scientists. Maybe you did not read these scientific messages of the Quran? Or you do not want to read and get to know the truth. The choice is yours. It is not mandatory. Just be rational. And do not rely on a baseless and invalid topic. Not good for your character. I like you.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Hello
I found it necessary to present the following article again to resolve the ambiguities of you dear ones about the punishment of God in the hereafter. Please read.
What is God on the Day of Resurrection for His purposes that we do not know? It purifies human beings. Refines us. Purifies us. And he chooses the desired man according to his actions in the world. And the rest who are among the misguided. They disappear in singularity.
A large group of people in the stage of hell, which in the Qur'an is the closed space before expansion. And when the universe returns to the same place. They disappear. And they do not need to go to the resurrection. We should not consider the appearance of the verses, all similar verses are to feel accountable to God.
This is a threat to all human beings: do not set yourself on fire. What is the firewood of hell? It is a fundamental particle. And the metaphor of the return of the material structure of the universe from iron, stone, or man are all crushed. They return to the smallest material structure (unit). Before the resurrection, all the material particles of the structure of the material world return to the beginning of the expansion of the universe.
The term crossing the Sarat Bridge is mentioned in Islam. Maybe it means that everyone is going through hell. And some can reach the resurrection. And some will stay in Hell forever. The reason for stating this issue is an interpretation of similar verses of the Resurrection, including verse 40 of Sura 41. I told you at the end of my previous message. Here I want to talk a little more about it. Ambiguities may be removed.
Meaning: Those who deviate in our verses. It is not hidden from God. Is someone thrown into the fire. It is better or someone who enters the resurrection with peace of mind. (He does not say he will enter Paradise) Those who will enter the Resurrection. They must be questioned and answered. Whatever you want to do, God is watching over your actions.
This verse is one of the reasons that hell is before the Day of Judgment. And all went back to where they began to be created. We have come from oneness and from oneness of singularity and singular. And back to that. Verse 156 of Sura 2 expresses this issue. Meaning: "We belong to God. And to God we return." After reckoning, the Hereafter begins. And on the Day of Judgment we will have hell and fire. And its nature is different from the nature of the plank of the Planck period or oneness. Fire burns from the hearts. And mental torment is their worst punishment. God is more merciful than to burn a human being. To burn his skin.
....

 

[heydarian saeed]

... And the skin grows again. And this torment will be repeated constantly. No. This is not the case. This vindictive revenge is far from the essence of God Almighty. These verses of torment are only similes and allegories. The password must be discovered. This is not one of the attributes of God. God is not avenger. God is kind. We have to find the password.
Do we need to examine what developments took place within the Planck period?
Why for the Qur'an the period of Saqr which is the limit of God. And it is important to start from the spark of God's light to create the universe and lead to its expansion. For two reasons: First - the origin of this world and the hereafter began from the same spark. And the material world goes back to the elementary particles. And second, with the dismantling of the material world, the anti-material world must also disappear. Because they are interdependent. But according to verse 67 of Sura 39, he says: The earth and the solar system will remain in the power of God on the Day of Resurrection. And it does not disappear.!
Meaning: "God is not known as it should be. The earth and the heavens will be in the power of God on the Day of Judgment. Glory be to God the Almighty, for whom there is no partner."
It says in verse 64 of Sura 29. Meaning: "This life of this world is nothing but entertainment and games. And the real life is in the abode of the Hereafter. If they only knew." And they are not separate. It is inferred from verse 21 of Sura 41: The burning hell of Saqr is the return of the material world to the place where the creation of matter began. And before the expansion of the universe.
And the space loosens. And loses its consistency. That is, the angels and the four forces of physics ascend to the side. And are removed from the universe. They are sidelined from the scene of the material world. I have already mentioned the signs of it. Mountains flow like running water! The sun goes down! The stars are falling! The sky is falling apart! And on that day it is God's will. And the creatures are assembled.
Where the Saqr of hell is that? It is a place that removes the shell due to high heat. And the objects of nature are set aside. And God's management in the material world is based on eight components. The Throne is God's command and management in the material world. And Saqr is the first stage of creating the material world.
Where elementary particles dominate. As soon as the quarks open, they are placed inside the neutron and proton shells. Now, everything is back to the original state of the expansion of the universe. As soon as matter enters the shell, quarks (quarks are located inside the shells of neutrons and protons) are removed. And the laws and causes of nature are referred to. And this definition is exactly the scope of oneness or the so-called scientific planck period.
God does not punish. The fate of the universe is to return to singularity. And we all get heat above 10 to the power of 32 degrees Kelvin. The material body of our world does not go to hell. Rather, we are recreated according to three theories: teleportation - quantum correlation or symmetry and exchange in singularity. Or we stay at this stage. (Misguided and disbelievers) or we pass. (Believers) and we will be held accountable on the Day of Resurrection. I hope the ambiguity of God's punishment has been removed for you. God is the Most Merciful. And does not torment. The destiny of the material world is as follows: to return to singularity. And return to the above heat.
hope to see you again.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

1- Hi dear friend. Do not be upset and worried. I have told you many times. That God and the Qur'an do not command to kill anyone. Those verses are about his own historical events. And not for our time. Of course, it is a lesson. If the situation is the same. The procedure is the same as the action. This is very easy to understand. I do not understand what makes you not understand this. And you insist on denying it. Tell me and friends. What are you suffering from?.

This is just a claim. Back it up with evidence.

You can claim anything you like, but that doesn't make it true, that just makes it your opinion. Back up your claims, don't just restate them and expect people to accept that.

2- The contents of the Quran are scientific. And it has a lot to offer for modern science. I have said the Qur'anic material in several messages that have been proven by scientists. Remember I said: " there is quantum correlation and invisible consciousness in all beings in the universe." And we have different verses in the Qur'an on this subject. And Professor Suarez has proved this by experimenting with photons. The subject of "teleportation" is mentioned in at least three places in the Qur'an.

This is meaningless gibberish that doesn't address my question.

That Professor Roger Penrose has proved this position. I have provided you with objective evidence and valid experiments from respected Western scientists. Maybe you did not read these scientific messages of the Quran? Or you do not want to read and get to know the truth. The choice is yours. It is not mandatory. Just be rational. And do not rely on a baseless and invalid topic. Not good for your character. I like you.

No you haven't. You've made grandiose claims that other posters have taken apart. Your only response is to restate your claims. That's not acceptable Heydarian.

Also I note that in all of your waffle you never even attempted to rebut my claims about the Quran being filled with hate, including the specific charges against the Jews in it. All you did was restate your unevidenced opinion that the Quran's commandments to kill no longer apply. Ok, even if I accept that as true, what about all the places where Allah himself expresses bigoted, hateful views and condemns people to burn in hell forever (literally) simply for the crime of not believing in him?

 

[Scorpion]

Heydarian. Stone the crows ! In your last post 2068 you deny the verses of the Quran are true. I thought you believed it was the infallible words of God, now you are saying it does not mean what it says and you need a password to understand it.

Here are some of the verses of hellfire plainly stated in the Quran.


22.19 These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water.
22.20 With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins.
22.21 In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them.
22.22 Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!"


4.56 Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for God is Exalted in Power, Wise.


40.70 Those who reject the Book and the (revelations) with which We sent our apostles: but soon shall they know,-
40.71 When the yokes (shall be) round their necks, and the chains; they shall be dragged along-
40.72 In the boiling fetid fluid: then in the Fire shall they be burned;
40.73 Then shall it be said to them: "Where are the (deities) to which ye gave part-
worship-

 

[Scorpion]

Here are some quotes from Muhammad in the Quran. As can be seen they are full of violence and fighting.

5.33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

8.12 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am withyou: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

9.5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans
wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in
every stratagem (of war);

33.61 They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be
seized and slain (without mercy).

47.4 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them):

 

[Scorpion]

Some years ago I did a search of the word 'unbelievers' in the Quran : This what I found


Chapter 4 The Women - An-Nisa: Verse 151
They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment.

Chapter 18 The cave - Al-Kahf: Verse 102
Do the Unbelievers think that they can take My servants as protectors besides Me? Verily We have prepared Hell for the Unbelievers for (their) entertainment.

Chapter 18 The cave- Al-Kahf: Verse
And We shall present Hell that day for Unbelievers to see, all spread out,-

Chapter 33 The Coalition - Al-Ahzab: Verse 64
Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers and prepared for them a Blazing Fire,-

Chapter 38 Sad - Sad: Verse 27
Not without purpose did We create heaven and earth and all between! that were the thought of Unbelievers! but woe to the Unbelievers because of the Fire (of Hell)!

Chapter 40 The Forgiver - Ghafir: Verse 6
Thus was the Decree of thy Lord proved true against the Unbelievers; that truly they are Companions of the Fire!

Chapter 51 The winnowing winds - Adh-Dhariyat: Verse 60
Woe, then, to the Unbelievers, on account of that Day of theirs which they have been promised!


Chapter 9 Repentance - At-Taubah: Verse 73
O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.

Chapter 13 The Thunder- Ar-Rad: Verse 32
Mocked were (many) messengers before thee: but I granted respite to the unbelievers, and finally I punished them: Then how (terrible) was my requital!


Chapter 14 Abraham - Ibrahim: Verse 2
Of Allah, to Whom do belong all things in the heavens and on earth! But alas for the Unbelievers for a terrible penalty (their Unfaith will bring them)!-


Chapter 21 The Prophets - Al-Anbiya: Verse 98
Verily ye, (unbelievers), and the (false) gods that ye worship besides Allah, are (but) fuel for Hell! to it will ye (surely) come!


Chapter 24 The Light - An-Noor: Verse 57
Never think thou that the Unbelievers are going to frustrate (Allah's Plan) on earth: their abode is the Fire,- and it is indeed an evil refuge!

Chapter 32 The Prostration - As-Sajda: Verse 29
Say: "On the Day of Decision, no profit will it be to Unbelievers if they (then) believe! nor will they be granted a respite."

Chapter 33 The Coalition - Al-Ahzab: Verse 8
That (Allah) may question the (custodians) of Truth concerning the Truth they (were charged with): And He has prepared for the Unbelievers a grievous Penalty.

Chapter 41 Explained in detail - Fussilat: Verse 27
But We will certainly give the Unbelievers a taste of a severe Penalty, and We will requite them for the worst of their deeds.


Chapter 42 Council, Consultation - Ash-Shura: Verse 26
And He listens to those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, and gives them increase of His Bounty: but for the Unbelievers their is a terrible Penalty.

Chapter 66 Banning - At-Tahrim: Verse 9
O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed).

Chapter 8 Spoils of war, booty- Al-Anfal: Verse 36
The Unbelievers spend their wealth to hinder (man) from the path of Allah, and so will they continue to spend; but in the end they will have (only) regrets and sighs; at length they will be overcome: and the Unbelievers will be gathered together to Hell;-


Chapter 22 The Pilgrimage - Al-Hajj: Verse 72
When Our Clear Signs are rehearsed to them, thou wilt notice a denial on the faces of the Unbelievers! they nearly attack with violence those who rehearse Our Signs to them. Say, "Shall I tell you of something (far) worse than these Signs? It is the Fire (of Hell)! Allah has promised it to the Unbelievers! and evil is that destination!"

Chapter 3 The family of Imran -Aal-e-Imran: Verse 151
Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!


Chapter 3 The family of Imran - Aal-e-Imran: Verse 178
Let not the Unbelievers think that our respite to them is good for themselves: We grant them respite that they may grow in their iniquity: But they will have a shameful punishment.

Chapter 5 The Table Spread - Al-Maeda: Verse 80
Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the Unbelievers. Evil indeed are (the works) which their souls have sent forward before them (with the result), that Allah's wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide.

Chapter 8 Spoils of war, booty - Al-Anfal: Verse 50
If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers (at death), (How) they smite their faces and their backs, (saying): "Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire-

Chapter 9 Repentance - At-Taubah: Verse 26
But Allah did pour His calm on the Messenger and on the Believers, and sent down forces which ye saw not: He punished the Unbelievers; thus doth He reward those without Faith.


Chapter 9 Repentance - At-Taubah: Verse 49
Among them is (many) a man who says: "Grant me exemption and draw me not into trial." Have they not fallen into trial already? and indeed Hell surrounds the Unbelievers (on all sides).


Chapter 9 Repentance - At-Taubah: Verse 90
And there were, among the desert Arabs (also), men who made excuses and came to claim exemption; and those who were false to Allah and His Messenger (merely) sat inactive. Soon will a grievous penalty seize the Unbelievers among them.

Chapter 21 The Prophets - Al-Anbiya: Verse 39
If only the Unbelievers knew (the time) when they will not be able to ward off the fire from their faces, nor yet from their backs, and (when) no help can reach them!


Chapter 21 The Prophets- Al-Anbiya: Verse 97
Then will the true promise draw nigh (of fulfilment): then behold! the eyes of the Unbelievers will fixedly stare in horror: "Ah! Woe to us! we were indeed heedless of this; nay, we truly did wrong!"

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Religious beliefs are not inherently dangerous unless they cause you to take radical and dangerous actions (like suicide bombing)

...or refusing to social distance, wear a mask and get vaccinated.

People can believe anything they like and most are not a danger to the community because of their beliefs.

In my experience, people who regularly believe false things often are a danger to the community, though that danger might not be immediately apparent.

In fact, many don't even act in accordance with their beliefs (few people stone homosexuals even though it is written in the bible). It is only when somebody seems likely to do a dangerous act that we need to intervene.

Beliefs that people don't act in accordance with aren't true beliefs.

As for parents passing on their beliefs to their children, I would have a big problem with banning parents from taking their children to church or arranging religious instruction for their children. That is precisely what the first amendment is designed to prevent.

The first amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances".

But that doesn't give 'believers' the right to do whatever they like in contravention of other laws. You can't get away with stoning homosexuals or abusing children just because your religion commands it. Filling a child's mind with lies is a form of abuse.

My observation is that many posters here were brought up in accordance to their parents' religion. But people learn to think for themselves and most of these same people are now the biggest atheists on the forum.

How to Lie with Statistics, chapter 1. The sample with built in bias.

The vast majority of families in the US are religious, and very few children grow up to become atheists. But this forum attracts atheists - especially those who came from a religious background - so of course many of them meet your criteria. That says nothing about all the others who didn't learn to think for themselves.

If you are thinking about those who would radicalize children and push them towards murderous rampages then the leaders who would do that are not truly religious leaders. They are more Hitler types (pardon the Godwin) who are more interested in their own personal power base and their own twisted hatred.

You are wrong. The most influential religious leaders generally are more interested in their own personal power base (and often their own twisted hatred too), but that doesn't make them 'no true Scotsmen'. Religious organizations are not different to others in that respect, but their core nature of making up and propagating false beliefs encourages it. It's almost inevitable that an organization built on BS will be run by the biggest BS'ers.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Here are some quotes from Muhammad in the Quran. As can be seen they are full of violence and fighting.

5.33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

8.12 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am withyou: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

9.5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans
wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in
every stratagem (of war);

33.61 They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be
seized and slain (without mercy).

47.4 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them):

Just in case anyone gets the impression that the Quran is alone in this,

The Bible and violence

The Hebrew Bible and the New Testament contain narratives, poetry, and instruction describing, encouraging, commanding, condemning, rewarding, punishing and regulating violent actions by God, individuals, groups, governments, and nation-states. Among the violent acts included are war, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, murder, rape, genocide...

You found 5 places in the Quran commanding fighting 'those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger'. The Christian Bible has many more, including genocide for people who just happened to be in the way of the Israelites' expansion. The final chapter makes global war a prerequisite for Jesus's return (which in the minds of sick believers means they must encourage it).

 

[IanS]

... And the skin grows again. And ...

... all snipped off here for the sake of the same claims not being repeated over & over & over again on every page ...

.

Heydarian - you have just made a number of very long replies above, but again without any attempt to answer the very simple question that I asked you -

How did God Make Humans?

That is just about the simplest possible, and most basic question in all of Islamic religion. And the answer is right there in just 5 or 6 words in the Koran, which you tell us that you have read 1000 times and which you insist are the actual words of God himself ... and yet you are incapable of telling us what the Koran & God himself says as the answer to that!

Repeat -

How did Allah create Humans? What did he do?

 

[Cosmic Yak]

That God and the Qur'an do not command to kill anyone.

Outright, bare-faced lie.

Those verses are about his own historical events. And not for our time. Of course, it is a lesson. If the situation is the same. The procedure is the same as the action. This is very easy to understand. I do not understand what makes you not understand this. And you insist on denying it. Tell me and friends. What are you suffering from?

If killing is wrong now, it was wrong then. Were the lives of people in the past worth less to this monster god than they are now? What kind of morality is that?
No, this is just more despicable and underhand apologetics.
Nasty.

 

[psionl0]

But that doesn't give 'believers' the right to do whatever they like in contravention of other laws. You can't get away with stoning homosexuals or abusing children just because your religion commands it. Filling a child's mind with lies is a form of abuse.

Your opinion that the constitution doesn't prevent banning religious instruction to children is one that I'm sure is not shared by the courts.

Nevertheless, you have revealed what atheists here truly believe: that there are NO gods and that it should be a crime to teach children to question that "fact".

You have ripped the "lack of belief" cloak right away from this forum.

 

[Pixel42]

Teaching beliefs as if they were fact is lying. When the honest answer to a child's question is "nobody knows", pretending that you do know is a lie and a betrayal of the child's trust.

That doesn't mean there's any practical way of preventing such indoctrination, there isn't. But let's call it what it is.

 

[IanS]

Your opinion that the constitution doesn't prevent banning religious instruction to children is one that I'm sure is not shared by the courts.

Nevertheless, you have revealed what atheists here truly believe: that there are NO gods and that it should be a crime to teach children to question that "fact".

You have ripped the "lack of belief" cloak right away from this forum.

You are overreacting and jumping to extreme sounding conclusions when you talk about "the cloak of “lacking belief” being ripped away". What we are talking about, what some of us here are talking about, is to say that religious belief is dangerous, which it clearly and undeniably is ... and to say that it would surely be better not to have religious belief automatically taught to the youngest children in state schools (or in any private schools, really).

It's obviously not practical to suggest that societies somehow stop parents filling their children with religious beliefs ... there's probably no way you could really legislate against that. But more advanced countries, and particularly countries that are less religious than the USA, could perhaps change the nature of the the Religious Education/Instruction lessons in junior schools, by having lessons about the history of religion & about how religions like Christianity and Islam arose in the first place, and about what the actual evidence is for those beliefs and what role modern science has inadvertently played in finding quite crucial evidence against such beliefs (such as evolution) ... better I think to teach under age 12 kids that sort of thing in Religious History type classes rather than teach them that the bible and God and the miracles are actually known to be true as simple facts.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Your opinion that the constitution doesn't prevent banning religious instruction to children is one that I'm sure is not shared by the courts.

Well, I don't have an opinion on that. But where I am, parents can opt out of religious teaching for their children.

Nevertheless, you have revealed what atheists here truly believe: that there are NO gods and that it should be a crime to teach children to question that "fact".

Uh, did you not know that atheists believe that there are no gods? As for the other part, it should be a crime to tell children that religion is a fact.

You have ripped the "lack of belief" cloak right away from this forum.

I'm sure there are dogmatic atheists here who think lack of belief is not enough. But the forum as such does not have opinions, and everyone is entitled to defend theirs, within the general rules.

Hans