The stupid explodes: obesity now a disability

rustypouch said:
And what's your point? You're still on the verge of obesity.
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I allegedly wan't on the verge of obesity according to the BMI, when I was 4" fatter around my waist at 170. Now that I am 4" skinnier at 200, I somehow am. Also, exercise works! But I know that's only a my case anectdote. Its not just input as claimed earlier, at 270 pounds I was on a pretty strict 2500 calorie a day diet, at 200 pounds I am 4000 to 4500-ish per day

Do I really look on the verge of obesity on that video?
 
pipelineaudio said:
I allegedly wan't on the verge of obesity according to the BMI, when I was 4" fatter around my waist at 170. Now that I am 4" skinnier at 200, I somehow am.
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This is why thresholds are guidelines about how to handle a gradient. It's why I brought up my example of blood pressure and cholesterol, they work exactly the same. A person doesn't suddenly switch from normal to at risk when they go from 239.9mg/dL 240mg/dL.

Observing the limitations of thresholds is not in and of itself a justifiable criticism of a health metric.


pipelineaudio said:
Also, exercise works! But I know that's only a my case anectdote. Its not just input as claimed earlier, at 270 pounds I was on a pretty strict 2500 calorie a day diet, at 200 pounds I am 4000 to 4500-ish per day

Do I really look on the verge of obesity on that video?
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Visuals are not a good way to measure risk. Particularly with men who can have six pack abs due to low subcutaneous fat, but yet have an excess of the much more dangerous visceral fat.
 
blutoski said:
Visuals are not a good way to measure risk. Particularly with men who can have six pack abs due to low subcutaneous fat, but yet have an excess of the much more dangerous visceral fat.
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I would think that visual is enough to tell obesity, I didn't claim anything about risk

However, I'm interested in this, how do you measure visceral fat? Is it like how much fat is running around your bloodstream, so it could be in there even if you were skinny as a rail?
 
pipelineaudio said:
I would think that visual is enough to tell obesity, I didn't claim anything about risk

However, I'm interested in this, how do you measure visceral fat? Is it like how much fat is running around your bloodstream, so it could be in there even if you were skinny as a rail?
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An actual measure of explicitly visceral fat would probably require an autopsy, but there are formulas that can estimate it from hip/waist ratio, subscapular caliper test, neck diameter, dunk tank, TANITA &c.

However, we can get a rough estimate from TANITA, which measures body fat percentage. If a man is 30% fat by mass and you can see his abs, it's almost all visceral adipose tissue.
 
Skeptical Greg said:
Interesting, in that I was recently investigating liver health/function and it mentions how fat accumulation in and around the the liver can lead to scarring and hardening as in sclerosis..
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Do you mean cirrhosis?

My understanding is that is basically what happens with the livers of the force-fed gees in making pâté de foie gras.
 
According to Tanita scales, I have 14% and 28% fat on the same day. I thought those were tossed as quackery a long time ago. Calipers seem consistently between 16 and 19%, but I don't know if those can help with the visceral stuff
 
pipelineaudio said:
According to Tanita scales, I have 14% and 28% fat on the same day. I thought those were tossed as quackery a long time ago. Calipers seem consistently between 16 and 19%, but I don't know if those can help with the visceral stuff
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I guess the key with Tanitas is to find one that's working, and to try to be consistent about moisture levels on the feet.

They're not quackery, but they are vulnerable to operator error. But so are regular scales and calipers and even tape measure around the waist.

The Tanita formulas are based on formulas from cadaver measurements, among other data sets, so pretty accurate if the conditions are met.

There's no perfect tool, but a combination of tools gives a good picture.



ETA: "Tanita" is like "Fridge" or "Kleenex" - Our facility used models from other manufacturers. In my home, I use a Withings Smart Body Analyzer. (This is not me recommending this product over others - there are many very good models out there). My body fat percentage on that device has not varied more than a percentage over a few years, it's pretty consistent, and that matches its Consumer Reports testing. I'm particularly impressed that it can distinguish between weight loss from dehydration from weight loss from fat catabolism.


2nd ETA: I just re-visited the Consumer Reports testing for Tanita 684W model as an example, and they rate it 'excellent' for body fat percentage repeatability.
 
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blutoski said:
The Tanita formulas are based on formulas from cadaver measurements, among other data sets, so pretty accurate if the conditions are met.
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That is creepy and awesome at the same time!

Its still the scale I use for weighing myself, I just don't bother with the fat calculator anymore, maybe hawaii is not the climate for these things.
 
pipelineaudio said:
That is creepy and awesome at the same time!
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I'm old enough to have been part of the original research. The physiology grad students loved recruiting swimmers, because anoxic training meant we could sit in the immersion tanks after fully exhaling, long enough for them to get a good reading of density.
 
pipelineaudio said:
I allegedly wan't on the verge of obesity according to the BMI, when I was 4" fatter around my waist at 170. Now that I am 4" skinnier at 200, I somehow am. Also, exercise works! But I know that's only a my case anectdote. Its not just input as claimed earlier, at 270 pounds I was on a pretty strict 2500 calorie a day diet, at 200 pounds I am 4000 to 4500-ish per day

Do I really look on the verge of obesity on that video?
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Yes.
 
cullennz said:
Half the All Blacks would be obese by BMI
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Yes, but, to take someone at complete random, there aren't that many 17 1/2 stone people with a 28" waist regardless of whether they can run 100m in 10.5 seconds.

Professional athletes are outside the normal population.
 
cullennz said:
Half the All Blacks would be obese by BMI
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Yep all ten of them in a nation of millions. They don't skew the results.

The database is representative of the population, which is what makes the results meaningful.

This was my point above (several posts, several examples: blood pressure, cholesterol within the last few days) when I mentioned that all medical studies have outlier issues, but that does not undermine their value.

The "but some people are different than the regular population, so we can ignore studies, unless we are guaranteed they apply to everybody" is a common go-to for healthfraud.
 
pipelineaudio said:
Do I really look on the verge of obesity on that video?
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No; certainly not big enough to worry about, I'd have thought.

blutoski said:
An actual measure of explicitly visceral fat would probably require an autopsy,...
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Possibly a little outside most people's need.

Surely, the old at home standing/lying test is an indicator of how much visceral fat a person has?

Also, I see there seem to be fairly accurate measures available through ultrasound and some other procedure hidden behind a $30 paywall. They look like they're claiming 96% accuracy?
 
The Atheist said:
Possibly a little outside most people's need.

Surely, the old at home standing/lying test is an indicator of how much visceral fat a person has?

Also, I see there seem to be fairly accurate measures available through ultrasound and some other procedure hidden behind a $30 paywall. They look like they're claiming 96% accuracy?
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Yes, I think my reason for citing the autopsy method is that it's 100% accurate and the standard for evaluating other candidate techniques. The only way the other methods can determine their accuracy is by comparing against a baseline of known cadaver results.
 
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