The Skeleton Key to Mystical Interpretation

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

The nice thing about being on someone's ignore list is that you can insult them all you want without fear of hurting their feelings. This is a enormous boon to sensitive (albeit snarky) souls such as myself.

I'll never understand why anyone would want to use an ignore list, other than to be able to go "la la la I'm not listening!" All you do is lose your right to reply.

 

[SonOfLaertes]

Sorry for the petty bickering and condescension, D'rok. I guess I'll have to be even more choosy about the people I talk to around here, and just talk to people who don't make me too angry. We tried, but alas its not meant to be.

I think I'll try limiting it to one person per thread o' mine, and in this thread its Zanders.

So you start a thread in a critical forum and refuse to engage with anyone who asks tough questions, which on this particular forum is just about everyone. That's cowardly, Limbo. Zanders, you have already hinted at this point, but I'll say it again: there is a noticeable gap between the claims made in the OP and the capability to flesh out those claims.

 

[dafydd]

So you start a thread in a critical forum and refuse to engage with anyone who asks tough questions, which on this particular forum is just about everyone. That's cowardly, Limbo. Zanders, you have already hinted at this point, but I'll say it again: there is a noticeable gap between the claims made in the OP and the capability to flesh out those claims.

The glimpse into Limbo's fantasy world has been very entertaining. Lots of funny stories,a huge ego,not one iota of proof.

 

[clown]

Welcome!

Oh, I am. I pointed out a flaw in 2 of his arguments. This makes me a bad person.

Hi new people! Welcome to Limbo's ignore list. Wow, so many fresh eager faces! Don't worry, you'll fit right in!

I've tried to clean this place a bit, but once man can't do much about it. On the other hand, you are all in invited to join me in Turija in 2011, on annual Kobasicijada event (free translation: Sausage Olympics), for a lot of alcoholic beverage drinking and food enjoyment.

Having finished with the word from my sponsor (no, not really. I've just seen the word turya, it sounded familiar and I did destination search on google. It popped almost immediately ), feel free to make yourself comfortable, 'cause you'll be staying here for a long, long time.

So let's get this party started, with sharing some common experiences.

/ children camp's councillor tone off.

1.Have you ever met any "mystics" irl?
2.Have you ever been shunned or looked down by your peers for trying to find out what your religion is all about/knowing more about certain religion than its followers/ trying to look for skeleton key of mystical knowledge?

Here, I'll break ice in this discussion.

Answer for the first question is: Yes, I've met old gypsy woman on the street. She tried to cold read me and I've cold read her instead. It was sort of embarrassing for both of us, since she got worried I have real powers .

And the answers for second question are for me: yes, yes and no.

Your turn .

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Which suggests to me that he was keenly aware of the esoteic/exoteric divide and he wanted his people to have a clear and strong exoteric layer. That is not to say that he did not understand and accept the validity of the esoteric. He could have simply thought it was too dangerous for uninitiated people to know. I could understand such rational. It IS dangerous.

But times change, and religion changes too. Humanity now has a wealth of tools that makes the esoteric accessible and understandable. We are in a position to benefit from wide perspectives that weren't available until modern times. We can expand the esoteric and shrink the exoteric in ways that the ancients could not, and the result would be a decrease in religious fundamentalism and an increase in tolerance.

I thought you'd decided to only address Zanders in this thread?

 

[Robin]

Which suggests to me that he was keenly aware of the esoteic/exoteric divide and he wanted his people to have a clear and strong exoteric layer. That is not to say that he did not understand and accept the validity of the esoteric. He could have simply thought it was too dangerous for uninitiated people to know. I could understand such rational. It IS dangerous

But what basis do you have for believing that there was any extra layer of meaning at all?

Much more likely that the Quran does not intend any more than it plainly states.

In any case the Quran is not supposed to be Muhammad's word - it is supposed to be the direct word of God, inspired within Muhammad for him to recite.

You can accept that these are the words of God - inerrantly recited.

Or, if this is untrue then there is no religious significance to the words at all. He is deluded or a fraud.

I can't see any middle way.

As the Quran says "You (Muhammad) are a plain messenger and warner"

 

[Chucky]

So you start a thread in a critical forum and refuse to engage with anyone who asks tough questions, which on this particular forum is just about everyone. That's cowardly, Limbo. Zanders, you have already hinted at this point, but I'll say it again: there is a noticeable gap between the claims made in the OP and the capability to flesh out those claims.

I've been trying to give Limbo a chance to make a case to simply explain why mysticism and the need for a key is necessary, a chance to provide a baseline argument if you will, and evidently Limbo is not up to the task. If you can't present the basic reasoning more complex reasoning is not going to follow in a coherent fashion. I agree that the highfalutin pronouncements here are seeming to far exceed any promises on the delivery of any well thought out position.

This is beginning to remind me of the pattern where incoherence is a tool used to dazzle the rubes into buying some dust of the Grand Wazoo.

ETA I will make a point however to thank Limbo for the link to the interviews with Campbell. A very expansive set that I've been enjoying.

 

[Limbo]

But what basis do you have for believing that there was any extra layer of meaning at all?

There are several basis, which I have already mentioned in this thread. the comparative fields and the study of esoterica. If the Prophet was a mystic, then there was an extra layer. Its unavoidable, its the nature of mysticism.

 

[Limbo]

I've been trying to give Limbo a chance to make a case to simply explain why mysticism and the need for a key is necessary, a chance to provide a baseline argument if you will, and evidently Limbo is not up to the task.

From my perspective, I gave you your answer and then some but you and I speak such radically different languages that we are talking past each other. When that happens I usually just move on to talk other people. I can't talk to everyone~! I'm only one person, after all. Gimme a break.

 

[tsig]

Limbo believes that there is deep esoteric symbolism and a mystical meaning hidden within the Quran, and other holy books.

Why would Limbos' beliefs have any power over you?

 

[tsig]

I think that mystics and occultists need to do a little more biographical and historic research of the people they include in their theories and speculation. Much of their actual historic information contradicts what the mystics claim about them, but they seem to value myth and speculations more and often overlook actual biographical information.

Before speculating, it is best to have all of the real and confirmed information so that you don't make any mistakes.

Best not to speculate.

 

[tsig]

Which suggests to me that he was keenly aware of the esoteic/exoteric divide and he wanted his people to have a clear and strong exoteric layer. That is not to say that he did not understand and accept the validity of the esoteric. He could have simply thought it was too dangerous for uninitiated people to know. I could understand such rational. It IS dangerous.

But times change, and religion changes too. Humanity now has a wealth of tools that makes the esoteric accessible and understandable. We are in a position to benefit from wide perspectives that weren't available until modern times. We can expand the esoteric and shrink the exoteric in ways that the ancients could not, and the result would be a decrease in religious fundamentalism and an increase in tolerance.

Tolerance like you've shown here on this forum by putting others on ignore?

By calling others close-minded?

 

[tsig]

The glimpse into Limbo's fantasy world has been very entertaining. Lots of funny stories,a huge ego,not one iota of proof.

On to the iggy-nore list you go!

 

[tsig]

From my perspective, I gave you your answer and then some but you and I speak such radically different languages that we are talking past each other. When that happens I usually just move on to talk other people. I can't talk to everyone~! I'm only one person, after all. Gimme a break.

When your language is only intelligible to your self we call that babble.

It's acceptable in brooks not so much in people.

 

[Chucky]

From my perspective, I gave you your answer and then some but you and I speak such radically different languages that we are talking past each other. When that happens I usually just move on to talk other people. I can't talk to everyone~! I'm only one person, after all. Gimme a break.

Give me a break. From my perspective it's documented here that you have provided me maybe half a dozen sentences (immediately per your request that someone as you about the mystical skeleton key) and I responded with perhaps 2 or 3 basic questions. And you have - viola!! - discovered in 100 words or less that 'we speak speak radically different languages'. I don't buy it. You don't have answers, obviously, to the most basic questions. Don't give me this notion that you can't comprehend my questions or when given an opportunity to 'teach me your language' you simply insult fundamentalists as being below you and beat feet. (And why that had anything to do with my question in the first place was never addressed)

Instead you make it pretty obvious that the most basic questions are the ones that you are least likely to answer because I'm becoming pretty sure that you cannot provide good answers to basic questions delivered to you on this site. You waltz in, do you little Gish Gallop instead of explaining yourself, and then accuse and insult others of not being on you're 'plane of existence' or whatever brand of whitewash you are using here. You will not make your basic case when given an opportunity to do so. You'd rather argue, insult and ignore than explain when given a chance which you requested.

If I can refer to someone I admire, Albert Einstein once suggested something along the lines that if a scientist cannot boil down their basic theories to be explained to a child or to a person with little scientific understanding, then they themselves do not understand it. That wisdom pretty much extends to all realms of knowledge. Oh well, until otherwise demonstrated it seems clear to me that you are making up a bunch of unsubstantiated claims as you go along and aren't able to defend them. Fine with me. I can't understand why you'd engage a skeptics forum with your arguments. Really, I think you'd be much happier on some sort of new age forum than here where your humility seems to be readily confronted.

 

[Limbo]

Chucky, I already told you why this topic is important. I gave two reasons, and a link to an article that elaborates on one of them in post #72. Maybe you could go back and read it.

Sorry if all that isn't good enough for you, and good luck to you. Bye-bye.

 

[Zanders]

Which suggests to me that he was keenly aware of the esoteic/exoteric divide and he wanted his people to have a clear and strong exoteric layer. That is not to say that he did not understand and accept the validity of the esoteric. He could have simply thought it was too dangerous for uninitiated people to know. I could understand such rational. It IS dangerous.

But times change, and religion changes too. Humanity now has a wealth of tools that makes the esoteric accessible and understandable. We are in a position to benefit from wide perspectives that weren't available until modern times. We can expand the esoteric and shrink the exoteric in ways that the ancients could not, and the result would be a decrease in religious fundamentalism and an increase in tolerance.

But you are missing a point I made earlier, Muhammad did not live by the esoteric truths contained in the Quran. Reading what has been written about his life and character, this becomes obvious.

 

[Limbo]

But you are missing a point I made earlier, Muhammad did not live by the esoteric truths contained in the Quran. Reading what has been written about his life and character, this becomes obvious.

But Zanders, you aren't qualified to understand esoteric truths yet. You are not a mystic, and you have not spent years studying the relevant fields. Until then, I recommend that you try not to judge one way or the other.

 

[Zanders]

But Zanders, you aren't qualified to understand esoteric truths yet. You are not a mystic, and you have not spent years studying the relevant fields. Until then, I recommend that you try not to judge one way or the other.

Have you read any actual academic biographies of Muhammad?

 

[Limbo]

Have you read any actual academic biographies of Muhammad?

No, I haven't.