The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

[Jack by the hedge]

JAIC did not mention for example the fact of the Finnish authorities demanding that Böden centre in Norway that would have recorded the signals produce its logs so as to examine whether it did indeed receive the signals. Had the buoys been of an illegal and non-conformant 'manual-activation-only' type not switched on there would be no mystery about where the 'automatic' signals went.

If the buoys been switched on, the failure to receive their signal would have become a significant and relevant consideration. The buoys were not switched on.

If the model had been an illegal or non-conformant type rather than a temporarily exempt older type then that would have become a significant and relevant consideration. The buoys were not illegal.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Why would anyone think a smoke detector is equivalent to an EPIRB? Sheesh.

Both are emergency devices with a 'test' button and no user adjustment. If you can't grasp why that's a relevant analogy then maybe the problem is something at your end.

 

[whoanellie]

Nobody said the Kannad 406 F should be 'manually tuned'. In the set up phase or inspection phase, they need to be tested as to whether they are emitting the correct frequency in the 406mhz range. That is what was meant by Lehtola when he said they were 'untuned'. The signal was not reaching the satellite for some reason.

You can't backpedal fast enough here. Tuned and tested are two different things. Nobody has questioned whether EPIRB's can or should be 'tested'. You've repeatedly claimed they needed to be 'tuned'. Tuned and tested are two different things.

The "reason" - obvious to the vast majority here - that the signal did not reach the satellites is that the EPIRB's on the Estonia were not turned on as they should have been and no signal was being emitted. If there is no signal then no signal can reach the satellites. Clear enough?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

You yourself stated that if a vessel were non-compliant with SOLAS or IMO they would not get the necessary insurance required to use harbour facilities and waters.

Did the Estonia fail to get insurance to use harbour facilitites and waters?

You seem to have found yet another dog which did not bark in the night. You do see that this is another indication that your version of the story is garbage, right? Only an obsessive conspiracy theorist takes evidence like this and thinks "the insurance people must be in on it too".

 

[GlennB]

Nobody said the Kannad 406 F should be 'manually tuned'. In the set up phase or inspection phase, they need to be tested as to whether they are emitting the correct frequency in the 406mhz range. That is what was meant by Lehtola when he said they were 'untuned'. The signal was not reaching the satellite for some reason.

As you know full well and as has been pointed out countless times, the epirbs were recovered and found to be perfectly functional - once they had been switched on.

But you're going to ignore this inconvenient truth forever, aren't you? At this stage you're pretty much obliged to.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Over the almost four years it took for the JAIC to bring the report out, there were many experts coming and going. Many disputes, resignations, sackings and arguments and even a suicide.

The link I provided to the report lists not only over a dozen appointed experts but also the years they served on the investigation, so yes, I was aware of various comings and goings.

The fact remains that Koivisto's name is not on that list, and I remain convinced that your championing of him as the subject expert par excellence is based simply on his being the only person in any related field you had ever heard of.

 

[zooterkin]

ZZZzzzzzz Zzzzzzzz


What are you hoping to achieve by dissimulating the refutation of a fact?

I am guessing, such as if you were disputing, for example, 'Paris is the capital of France', you are merely doing it for the enjoyment of winding people up.

Maybe self-reflect as to why on earth anyone would bother to do that and let us know your thoughts and how the matter can be rectified.

I will defer to you as the expert in this case.

 

[Andy_Ross]

You yourself stated that if a vessel were non-compliant with SOLAS or IMO they would not get the necessary insurance required to use harbour facilities and waters.

And they were compliant. They were operating within a limited exemption as has been detailed already numerous times.

Keep trolling.

 

[JayUtah]

Asser Koivisto is a confirmed expert in maritime communications.

No.

At the time JAIC sat, he was an expert in electronic navigation. Not the same thing. He has never been an expert in EPIRBs.

 

[JayUtah]

He was the go-to person in accident investigations.

That wasn't what I asked. You cited a paywalled article that you claim "clearly" established Koivisto as the JAIC's expert on EBIRBs. Provide that part of that article, please. Or else we'll have to assume you're lying about your sources, as usual.

 

[JayUtah]

EPIRB's and PLB run on SDR technology.

Not in 1994 they didn't.

SDRs are called for when there is a need to operate on a wide range of frequencies dynamically. Emergency beacons in 1994 required exactly the opposite: they had to operate on a fixed frequency to within a very high tolerance for frequency stability, and very long term reliability.

Your source is from 2016. Nowadays we use several channels in the designated emergency band 406.000 MHz to 406.100 MHz, and modern beacons may have to be compatible with legacy receivers and spacecraft. There are currently four fixed frequencies in use, requiring switching between them in normal operation. That makes SDRs the preferred technology in modern beacons. The frequency drift tolerances are still the same for each discrete channel, and none of that behavior is available for external control. There is no way to make the radio not heard on the two channels in use in 1994.

Sorry, as usual you don't get to map modern practice back onto history and pretend you understand anything about it. You cited two sources: one a Wikipedia article giving the history of software-defined radios, and the other a manfucturer's spec sheet for modern SDRs certified for use in beacons. Had you actually attempted to assimilate and combine the information from those two sources instead of merely trying to beat your critics over the head with them, you would have seen why your claim fails.

Nobody said the Kannad 406 F should be 'manually tuned'.

You claimed they had been sabotaged by having been tuned away from the proper frequency. That is not possible.

In the set up phase or inspection phase, they need to be tested as to whether they are emitting the correct frequency in the 406mhz range.

No.

Normal testing is simply to ensure the battery charge. In the 1990s, the lengthier (e.g., annual) test to which you refer requires a test rig, such that the EPIRBs would have to be removed and taken ashore.

That is what was meant by Lehtola when he said they were 'untuned'.

No.

As you agree, Lehtola was not an expert in EPIRBs and did not describe them accurately to the reporter who asked.

The signal was not reaching the satellite for some reason.

Because the EPIRBs had not been switched on. This was determined to everyone's satisfaction but yours. And since you don't understand how they work, we know the cause of that confusion.

 

[JayUtah]

Given, as amply demonstrated...

All you've demonstrated is your desire to obfuscate the facts.

...as mandated by IMO CHAPTER III...

Asked and answered.

...others that perhaps the signal emitted was not quite the right wavelength for the satellite to have picked it up...

You've provide no expert opinion speculating that the EPIRBs were transmitting, but just on the wrong frequency. You're the only one claiming this, and it's impossible on its face. It was also later disproven by recovering and testing the EPIRBs. They had a full battery charge and performed flawlessly when switched on. They could not therefore have operated improperly earlier: the frequency did not magically readjust itself back to the right one, and the batteries did not magically recharge.

As the JAIC glosses over this...

The JAIC did not gloss over the question of EPIRBs.

we can be sure they were not manualy-activation-only or it would have just said so.

They did exactly that. They identified the EPIRB by manufacturer and model and concluded correctly according to the facts that no signal had been received because the beacons were not turned on as required for them to transmit.

It would have said...

The exemption to regulations under which MS Estonia sailed with manual-only EPIRBs were rescinded following the accident.

I agree with many of my colleagues here. You're deliberately obfuscating the facts, ostensibly simply to yank people's chains or perhaps prolong your thread. You are in no way a serious claimant.

 

[JayUtah]

Over the almost four years it took for the JAIC to bring the report out, there were many experts coming and going. Many disputes, resignations, sackings and arguments and even a suicide.

All covered in the JAIC, which lists the dates of involvement for the commissioners and subject matter experts.

You have claimed repeatedly that Asser Koivisto was the JAIC's expert on EBIRBs. Yet his name appears nowhere in the formal reports. There is evidence in commission records that he consulted once, informally, on the subject of electronic navigation. There is evidence in the media that he attended a meeting in Helsinki at which EPIRBs were discussed, but deferred reporter's further questions on EPIRBs to those whom he considered subject matter experts.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Whaddaya know, this thread has a soundtrack album!

Submarine Tracks and Fools Gold

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Frankly, I can scarcely believe that Vixen is still trying to flog this log dead (and fully decomposed) horse.

At this point, I fear she may be damaging valuable Eohippus specimens.

 

[JayUtah]

Whaddaya know, this thread has a soundtrack album!

Submarine Tracks and Fools Gold

It says "Currently Unavailable." Suppressed by the Swedish government, no doubt.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

It says "Currently Unavailable." Suppressed by the Swedish government, no doubt.

I can smuggle you a copy out of Russia.

 

[Vixen]

I will defer to you as the expert in this case.

I have never claimed to be an expert.

 

[Vixen]

And they were compliant. They were operating within a limited exemption as has been detailed already numerous times.

Keep trolling.

Back to name-calling are we?

'Limited exemption', ha ha, all in your mind as you cannot face admitting to the fact MV Estonia had standard free-float automatic buoys, complete with brackets either side of the bridge, externally, and together with hydrostatic units.

 

[Vixen]

No.

At the time JAIC sat, he was an expert in electronic navigation. Not the same thing. He has never been an expert in EPIRBs.

Nobody ever took a degree in EPIRBs. EPIRB functioning is very much to do with radio communications and Koivisto is an expert in maritime communications.