The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

[Axxman300]

Which motoring organisation? That's the kind of service I need when I break down!

Probably the one with the talking lizard in its commercials.

 

[JesseCuster]

It explains how skilled biographers and historians engage readers by obtaining quotes - from letters, court files, school reports, etc - and that it is a well-respected genre.

The only quotes from Flashes in the Night you've provided say describe Voronin as 'A Russian giant with a heavy shock of graying [sic] hair and beard...' ''a heavy-shouldered bear of a man...'. Nothing at all about his alleged advanced health problems, excruciating back injury, multiple strokes and heart attacks, etc. yet you've brought them up over and over.

The fact Alexander Voronin's son, Vassili - who also went through a terrible ordeal - was obviously the person who supplied the details of how they escaped the ship. It would be considered highly unethical to make up fake quotes.

Why is it obvious that Vassily was the source of the details about the escape? You yourself incorrectly guessed that Voronin himself was the source of the information and that he spoke personally to Nelson. Does the book say that Vassily was interviewed and was the source of the story of the escape?
If so, what does Flashes in the Night actually say about Voronin's advanced health issues, being massively overweight, a highly unfit man, previous strokes and heart attacks, etc.?

Have you read the book?

 

[Vixen]

So, the 245 lb claim. Is that a fake quote or a real quote? Where did you get it from?

Jack A. Nelson.

 

[Vixen]

We're not talking generally about "skilled biographers and historians." We're talking about what your source was for a specific claim you have made several times now. Deflecting specific objections with glittering generalities doesn't work. You either have a source for the claim that Voronin weighed 245 pounds or you do not. If you do not, then continuing to play games is not arguing in good faith.

For the umpty-ninth time, Jack A. Nelson.

 

[Vixen]

The only q


Why is it obvious that Vassily was the source of the details about the escape? You yourself incorrectly guessed that Voronin himself was the source of the information and that he spoke personally to Nelson. Does the book say that Vassily was interviewed and was the source of the story of the escape?
If so, what does Flashes in the Night actually say about Voronin's advanced health issues, being massively overweight,

It was obviously someone who was there who witnessed the sinking and was able to recount how they got away and were rescued.

 

[Andy_Ross]

It was obviously someone who was there who witnessed the sinking and was able to recount how they got away and were rescued.

So tell us who it was

 

[JesseCuster]

Jack A. Nelson.

So quote us what Jack Nelson says about Voronin's clinical obesity, advanced health problems, previous strokes and heart attacks, etc.

 

[JayUtah]

For the umpty-ninth time, Jack A. Nelson.

Please provide us with a photograph of the page of the book on which Nelson makes the claim, including its context. I can assure you there is no copyright liability in doing so.

 

[Vixen]

Do you know where the "245 lb" figure for Voronin's weight came from or not?


Asked and answered. While they may not strictly be conspiracy theorists, they were hired by an engineering company implicated in a major disaster. This is fairly common in the industry. Their job was to salvage Meyer Werft's reputation by casting doubt on the official narrative.


Meister left the JAIC in a conspiratorial pique and then wrote a book that seems to contain significant errors and speculation, based on your representation of it.


They did not guess. You are not even the slightest bit qualified to determine whether a forensic engineering investigation was done properly.


The explanation is that in several hundred pages of debate in this thread alone, plus hundreds of other pages discussing other tragedies and their ensuing forensic examination, we who are professionally qualified or otherwise experienced in such matters have tested your knowledge of the relevant sciences, procedures, and methods and have found you not only lacking any credible expertise in them but lacking also the level of understanding a typical lay person would possess. You are in no way, shape, or form knowledgeable enough to determine whether expert investigators have performed their jobs correctly. You are simply arrogantly assuming an understanding you cannot demonstrate and then whining petulantly when people point this out to you.


The bow visor is quite visible from the bridge when raised and obstructs the view forward from the bridge. Your ridiculous suggestion that it was raised—and the ramp lowered—in a storm to offload an allegedly problematic truck is patently absurd.

This is where there is a gap in communication because I did not say the car deck ramp was raised in a storm to offload an allegedly problematic truck. I was very clearly quoting one of the claims the JAIC was faced with. Simonton gap strikes again!

 

[JayUtah]

It was obviously someone who was there who witnessed the sinking and was able to recount how they got away and were rescued.

Why is that obvious? You're inferring the authority of a statement from its mere existence.

 

[Axxman300]

You are simply providing your own 'alternative view'. Andy Meister was head of the JAIC and it was the JAIC's remit to investigate the disaster. That is what they were appointed to do! Settling for a 'strong wave' unproven hypothesis was abnegating their duty. They weren't supposed to guess. "Oh well, we can't agree, and the police and the naval divers won't tell us anything, so we'll just do a descriptive narrative for a peaceful life".

No, while I am not an engineer, or shipping expert, I do know the sea, and I have common sense.

Nobody was going to open the bow-visor and lower the ramp that night, not in that weather. I don't care who you are. Smugglers smuggle for a living, they'd take their chances when they reach port. If Meister actually believed this he's a bafoon.

And JAIC didn't guess, they looked at the evidence. They raised the bow-visor at great expense so they could run all the tests. In the new investigation they raised the bow ramp for the same reason. The divers saw a lot, and it's all on video for anyone to view. The bow took extensive damage from the pounding of the visor against the hull to the point the adjacent area where the visor connects has rippling in the steel hull plates. This is not the usual pitting you see in hull plating, this was from repeated hammering.

Again this is all on video.

From the report:

“An inspection of the bow parts was not performed. The related certificate should not have been issued unless such an inspection had been carried out, which means that MS Estonia was not seaworthy. If such an inspection, following regulations, had been carried out, the flaws of the visor construction could have been discovered, and the accident would probably not have occurred,” the intermediate report says.

“The location of the bow ramp as the upper extension of the collision bulkhead was based on a practical decision for an exemption from the regulations. Such an exemption entails a condition, which must be recorded in certificates but was not. Therefore, MS Estonia was not seaworthy and the certificate was incorrect. If the condition had been noted in the relevant certificate, the vessel would not have been trading the Tallinn-Stockholm route,”

[source: https://estonianworld.com/life/an-intermediate-report-the-ferry-estonia-was-not-seaworthy/]

Meister's agency certified the MS Estonia as sea-worthy when a proper inspection had not been conducted. Those were Meister's people. Why didn't they do their jobs? Why doesn't you conspiracy include possible corruption by Meister? He doth protest too much, me thinks.

 

[JayUtah]

This is where there is a gap in communication because I did not say the car deck ramp was raised...

Straw man. The visor is raised. The car ramp is lowered.

I was very clearly quoting one of the claims the JAIC was faced with. Simonton gap strikes again!

No, you're not an unsung genius.

You wrote :—

According to Andi Meister the story about the cobalt was shut down very quickly by the JAIC. The claim was, Eiseln, an American who used his Estonian ethnicity to take high office in Estonia, had a direct phone line - radio, satellite or otherwise - who supposedly rang up the bridge to order them to dump it as Swedish Customs had been tipped off. Hence the opening of the car ramp. The alternative version was a lucrative cargo of drugs which the gangsters didn't want Customs to get hold of, owing to its street value. Who knows, but Silver Linde did get nine years for drug smuggling some years later. The bow ramp could just as easily been opened by a person or persons, as a 'strong wind' knocking off the entire structure.

How does this not propose that the ramp was lowered at sea to dispose of a vehicle? How can the car ramp be lowered unless the bow visor is raised?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

No, we know what the Simonton gap is.

You're the one who is implying that they're a genius, so no no, you first.

 

[Andy_Ross]

This is where there is a gap in communication because I did not say the car deck ramp was raised in a storm to offload an allegedly problematic truck. I was very clearly quoting one of the claims the JAIC was faced with. Simonton gap strikes again!

So we can rule out the visor being opened to dump a truck or other items?

 

[Vixen]

No, while I am not an engineer, or shipping expert, I do know the sea, and I have common sense.

Nobody was going to open the bow-visor and lower the ramp that night, not in that weather. I don't care who you are. Smugglers smuggle for a living, they'd take their chances when they reach port. If Meister actually believed this he's a bafoon.

And JAIC didn't guess, they looked at the evidence. They raised the bow-visor at great expense so they could run all the tests. In the new investigation they raised the bow ramp for the same reason. The divers saw a lot, and it's all on video for anyone to view. The bow took extensive damage from the pounding of the visor against the hull to the point the adjacent area where the visor connects has rippling in the steel hull plates. This is not the usual pitting you see in hull plating, this was from repeated hammering.

Again this is all on video.

From the report:


[source: https://estonianworld.com/life/an-intermediate-report-the-ferry-estonia-was-not-seaworthy/]

Meister's agency certified the MS Estonia as sea-worthy when a proper inspection had not been conducted. Those were Meister's people. Why didn't they do their jobs? Why doesn't you conspiracy include possible corruption by Meister? He doth protest too much, me thinks.

No, Meister didn't 'guess' that. This was evidence presented to the JAIC to consider. However stupid you might consider the idea, that was part of their function, to investigate. I have no idea who, why or how that claim of cobalt smuggling came up but it was soon rejected.

 

[JayUtah]

I have no idea who, why or how that claim of cobalt smuggling came up but it was soon rejected.

Do you have any evidence that the rejection was unreasonable?

 

[Andy_Ross]

No, while I am not an engineer, or shipping expert, I do know the sea, and I have common sense.

Nobody was going to open the bow-visor and lower the ramp that night, not in that weather. I don't care who you are. Smugglers smuggle for a living, they'd take their chances when they reach port. If Meister actually believed this he's a bafoon.

And JAIC didn't guess, they looked at the evidence. They raised the bow-visor at great expense so they could run all the tests. In the new investigation they raised the bow ramp for the same reason. The divers saw a lot, and it's all on video for anyone to view. The bow took extensive damage from the pounding of the visor against the hull to the point the adjacent area where the visor connects has rippling in the steel hull plates. This is not the usual pitting you see in hull plating, this was from repeated hammering.

Again this is all on video.

From the report:


[source: https://estonianworld.com/life/an-intermediate-report-the-ferry-estonia-was-not-seaworthy/]

Meister's agency certified the MS Estonia as sea-worthy when a proper inspection had not been conducted. Those were Meister's people. Why didn't they do their jobs? Why doesn't you conspiracy include possible corruption by Meister? He doth protest too much, me thinks.

Estonia was operating on a specify certification that restricted it to coastal routes.
It was operating on offshore routes

 

[junkshop]

Jack A. Nelson.

Quotation and citation please, in full (including any information Nelson gives about how he came by this information).

 

[Vixen]

Quotation and citation please, in full (including any information Nelson gives about how he came by this information).

See upthread. He acknowledges the help of Valeria Kasper, an Estonian filmmaker, and speaking to six survivors personally.

These would include Paul Barney, Sara Hedrenius, Kent Harstedt, Tom Johnson, Mikael Oün and the Voronin contact, presumably Vassili. Yes, it is Vashya (nickname) who does all the quoting. For example, 'It's like a roller coaster!' and stuff like that. And 'Get dressed quick!' Nobody else is quoted.

 

[Andy_Ross]

See upthread. He acknowledges the help of Valeria Kasper an EStonian filmaker and speaking to six survivors personally.

These would include Paul Barney, Sara Hedrenius, Kent Harstedt, Tom Johnson and the Voronin contact, presumably Vassili. Yes, it is Vashya (nickname) who does all the quoting. For example, 'It's like a roller coaster!' and stuff like that. And 'Get dressed quick!' Nobody else is quoted.

Can you show us where he listed the survivors he spoke to?
We only have your words on this so far.