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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

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How you drop a feather and a stone into the sea to a depth of 100 metres, in a vacuum, such that they hit the bottom at the same time? What in god's name are you rambling about? :confused:

I'm puzzled at why this has caused so much confusion. Maybe Vixen and I had a rare moment of shared lucidity, but to me her meaning was a clear.

She's asking us to assume arguendo conditions of vacuum. Under those conditions, any two objects will fall at the same acceleration regardless of mass, shape, or size. This is the generalized synthesis to the famous demonstration performed on the Moon, in which a hammer and a feather are dropped at the same time and hit the lunar surface at the same time, falling at the same rate in a vacuum.

She's not asserting that such conditions actually exist for the problem of reckoning the dynamics of a sinking ship, or ought to. It's just her ham-fisted way of illustrating (correctly, for a change) that gravitational acceleration is a constant and that this is her jumping-off point for further reasoning. She points out (again correctly) that the final solution will have to account for the conditions that do exist for a sinking ship.
 
As I just pointed out, it's pure equivocation. She wants to ignore the letter of the law and pretend that Sweden's actions that violated one law must somehow also have violated a different law. Yes, Sweden stipulated to the actions they were accused of. But those actions don't constitute enforced disappearance under the statute she cites. They simply don't satisfy the elements of the crime, whether Sweden stipulates to them or not. Vixen's claim fails easily as a matter of law. And as a matter of fact, Sweden was not charged with any form of enforced disappearance.


She also claimed that the fact that there's a law against it means Sweden must have done it.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13682313#post13682313
 
Whichever statute one likes to use, it is a simple fact that your country cannot 'disappear' you.

Well, no, as you point out in the part I snipped, a country can "disappear" you—even civilized ones. That is, they certainly have the ability to do so. Whether they can lawfully do so depends on the letter of the law as it varies from place to place.

You and I and others are likely to have a substantially similar idea of what enforced disappearance might look like. But if you're going to hold a nation responsible in court, those ideas are irrelevant. Only the letter of the law matters.

However, Sweden whisking the two Egyptian nationals off the street, who were there quite legally, at the command of the CIA and without any court order or warrant may have been 'understandable' in the circumstances but it doesn't hide the fact it was a 'disappearance' as set out in the Rome Treaty 1998 edict.

No. Here is the statute you cite to:

Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court said:
"Enforced disappearance of persons" means the arrest, detention or abduction of persons by, or with the authorization, support or acquiescence of, a State or a political organization, followed by a refusal to acknowledge that deprivation of freedom or to give information on the fate or whereabouts of those persons, with the intention of removing them from the protection of the law for a prolonged period of time.

What are the elements?
(1) arrest, detention, or abduction of persons
(2) by state authority
(3) refusal to acknowledge the deprivation of freedom
(4) refusal to give information about the fate or whereabouts
(5) the intent to deprive the persons of the protection of law
(6) for a prolonged period of time.

Were the Egyptians arrested and detained? Yes. We don't need to contemplate whether they were "abducted."

Was this done by state authority? Yes.

Did Sweden refuse to acknowledge the deprivation of freedom? No. Sweden did not represent in any way than the men had not been detained. Now the question is what constitutes legal acknowledgement. Here it's that the arrest and detention has been properly documented under the ordinary processes of the government, which occurred. That it took some time for certain parties to learn of this does not factor into it.

Did Sweden refuse to give information about the whereabouts or fate of the two men? No, although disclosure was not immediate. The men's families were eventually notified and were permitted to visit the men in Egypt. It took 48 hours for the men's lawyers in Sweden to discover what had happened to them, but this does not rise to a violation. As anxious as everyone may have been, that's considered a reasonable administrative delay. In the U.S. you can be held essentially incommunicado for 48 hours, or 72 hours in some states, as lawful detainment.

Did Sweden intend to deprive the men of the protection of law? Not as the law understands it. True, by detaining and deporting them rather than granting them asylum, Sweden denied them the protection of Swedish law against abuse. However, Sweden stated their belief that the men would receive the protection of Egyptian law, based on assurances of the government.

Here is where Sweden broke a different law. It has nothing to do with establishing intent. At worst Sweden was shown to have been negligent in their assessment of Egypt's assurance. Negligence is not intent. It's still bad, and Sweden was held correctly accountable for it. But the law doesn't let you translate negligence into intent. This element fails.

Were the men kept incommunicado for a "prolonged period of time?" No. You may quibble over how long "prolonged" is, but the same court that handed down the judgment in the cases of the two Egyptians ruled in a different case that 7 days constitutes prolonged deprivation of legal protection. Access to legal protect for these men (such as it may have been) was restored only a couple of days after their deportation.

People certainly seemed willing to hold Sweden accountable for their behavior. I certainly think Sweden and the U.S. acted reprehensibly in this matter. But why wasn't Sweden charged with enforced disappearance, among the other crimes they were accused of? My answer is that the above shows that while Sweden satisfied some of the elements of the crime, it did not satisfy all of them.

If you want to hold them morally accountable according to your private definition, that's your prerogative. But since you've cited to a statute and said that this is the statute Sweden broke, that's the standard that applies to your argument.

This is relevant because it shows that with regard to the claimed disappearance of several senior crew of the Estonia in 1994 and Carl Bildt working with the US to encourage Estonia the country to join NATO asap shows that Sweden had done it before, if this is what happened.

Yes, this is Bollyn's argument, to which you have firmly fastened yourself. Absent any actual evidence, he's trying some smoke-and-mirrors by saying that if Sweden did it once before, surely they are capable of doing it again. But he has to bend and twist the facts to get them to fit his "pattern."
 
So you're just ignoring that I linked directly to you bringing race into the discussion despite having claimed that it never happened then Vixen? Quelle surprise.
 
And it's a simple fact that the Swedish government didn't "disappear" the two Egyptians; they were deported without due process, and to a country where their safety wasn't guaranteed. These are not the same thing.

I would say they effectively are if one is bundled onto a plane to a country one has stated you are seeking asylum from and your asylum seeker status is officially recognised. This implies that you have come from a country that has a recognised humanitarian issue as per international law regarding asylum (= seeking sanctuary).
 
Well, no, as you point out in the part I snipped, a country can "disappear" you—even civilized ones. That is, they certainly have the ability to do so. Whether they can lawfully do so depends on the letter of the law as it varies from place to place.

You and I and others are likely to have a substantially similar idea of what enforced disappearance might look like. But if you're going to hold a nation responsible in court, those ideas are irrelevant. Only the letter of the law matters.



No. Here is the statute you cite to:



What are the elements?
(1) arrest, detention, or abduction of persons
(2) by state authority
(3) refusal to acknowledge the deprivation of freedom
(4) refusal to give information about the fate or whereabouts
(5) the intent to deprive the persons of the protection of law
(6) for a prolonged period of time.

Were the Egyptians arrested and detained? Yes. We don't need to contemplate whether they were "abducted."

Was this done by state authority? Yes.

Did Sweden refuse to acknowledge the deprivation of freedom? No. Sweden did not represent in any way than the men had not been detained. Now the question is what constitutes legal acknowledgement. Here it's that the arrest and detention has been properly documented under the ordinary processes of the government, which occurred. That it took some time for certain parties to learn of this does not factor into it.

Did Sweden refuse to give information about the whereabouts or fate of the two men? No, although disclosure was not immediate. The men's families were eventually notified and were permitted to visit the men in Egypt. It took 48 hours for the men's lawyers in Sweden to discover what had happened to them, but this does not rise to a violation. As anxious as everyone may have been, that's considered a reasonable administrative delay. In the U.S. you can be held essentially incommunicado for 48 hours, or 72 hours in some states, as lawful detainment.

Did Sweden intend to deprive the men of the protection of law? Not as the law understands it. True, by detaining and deporting them rather than granting them asylum, Sweden denied them the protection of Swedish law against abuse. However, Sweden stated their belief that the men would receive the protection of Egyptian law, based on assurances of the government.

Here is where Sweden broke a different law. It has nothing to do with establishing intent. At worst Sweden was shown to have been negligent in their assessment of Egypt's assurance. Negligence is not intent. It's still bad, and Sweden was held correctly accountable for it. But the law doesn't let you translate negligence into intent. This element fails.

Were the men kept incommunicado for a "prolonged period of time?" No. You may quibble over how long "prolonged" is, but the same court that handed down the judgment in the cases of the two Egyptians ruled in a different case that 7 days constitutes prolonged deprivation of legal protection. Access to legal protect for these men (such as it may have been) was restored only a couple of days after their deportation.

People certainly seemed willing to hold Sweden accountable for their behavior. I certainly think Sweden and the U.S. acted reprehensibly in this matter. But why wasn't Sweden charged with enforced disappearance, among the other crimes they were accused of? My answer is that the above shows that while Sweden satisfied some of the elements of the crime, it did not satisfy all of them.

If you want to hold them morally accountable according to your private definition, that's your prerogative. But since you've cited to a statute and said that this is the statute Sweden broke, that's the standard that applies to your argument.



Yes, this is Bollyn's argument, to which you have firmly fastened yourself. Absent any actual evidence, he's trying some smoke-and-mirrors by saying that if Sweden did it once before, surely they are capable of doing it again. But he has to bend and twist the facts to get them to fit his "pattern."

Bollyn has nothing to do with it. I would state re your claim:

"Sweden stated their belief that the men would receive the protection of Egyptian law, based on assurances of the government."

This doesn't really ring true. 'They would say that, wouldn't they?'

However, the acid test is that they did not allow the men's lawyers to argue their case which proves they did skip protocol.
 
So you're just ignoring that I linked directly to you bringing race into the discussion despite having claimed that it never happened then Vixen? Quelle surprise.

You have been been falsely accusing me of this for some time now on several occasions. I have not even mentioned the word 'race'. Perhaps consider that is your misapprehension.

I specifically used the word 'demographic'.

demographic
adjective
relating to the structure of populations.
"the demographic trend is towards an older population"
noun
a particular sector of a population.
"the drink is popular with a young demographic"

I have no idea what 'race' these two guys are. I have not seen a photograph of them. All one can tell is that from their name, they appear to emanate from an Islamic culture. This could be Saudi-Arabian or even Moroccan or Libyan. I have no idea which ethnic minority they come from to be in rebellion against the Egyptian culture. Were I to show you a Kurd and a Turk, I doubt one could tell the difference between the two. Likewise, a Uighar from far east Russia probably looks ethnic Chinese or Siberian. There are many Muslims in the continent of Africa. There are the South Asians of Pakistan. There are also European Muslims in Bosnia, Albania, Spain, et al. Before you start imagining, 'Ah, Mediterranean/Levant', can I point out that we have a Finnish Tatar ethnic group, who have been in Finland for generations and are just as Finnish as any other Finnish person.

It is hardly my fault if you have an unsophisticated categorisation of 'Muslim' = 'Race'. This is quite erroneous.
 
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I would say they effectively are if one is bundled onto a plane to a country one has stated you are seeking asylum from and your asylum seeker status is officially recognised. This implies that you have come from a country that has a recognised humanitarian issue as per international law regarding asylum (= seeking sanctuary).


But that is not the same thing as an enforced disappearance, as JayUtah has detailed above.

And remember why we're discussing this in this thread: you originally brought it up to support your claim that Sweden had "disappeared" the crew of the Estonia, by saying that Sweden has done the same thing in other cases.
 
But that is not the same thing as an enforced disappearance, as JayUtah has detailed above.

And remember why we're discussing this in this thread: you originally brought it up to support your claim that Sweden had "disappeared" the crew of the Estonia, by saying that Sweden has done the same thing in other cases.

It is troubling, the missing Estonian senior crew. This is because they were initially listed as survivors. We also know from an early evening Swedish newspaper that a rescuer, named Fänrik (Ensign) Kenneth Svensson, ytbärgare vid M/S Estonias förlisning 27 september 1994, tilldelad 15 januari 1996, received Sweden's highest medal (usually only given in war time). 'Ken' Svensson in the early day newspaper stated he had rescued seven IIRC people and he was interviewed at Huddinge Hospital in Stockholm. Yet puzzlingly, the JAIC Reports that Svensson's rescue helicopter did not even arrive at the accident scene until circa 4:00am (some three hours after the accident) and on that occasion saved one or two, having got into trouble himself. So clearly, it seems to me he DID rescue nine or so persons which has been mysteriously been wiped off the records.

In addition, a Russian businessman name Voronin, who either shared a cabin with second Captain Arvo Piht or swapped with him; but no matter, they were in nearby cabins, managed to survive with no problems, together with his family, despite being heavily overweight and with cardiac problems. The majority of the passenger survivors were those on the upper decks, as were the quarters of the senior crew. The watch and the engineering crew who had been in the Engine Room on deck 0 (the hull) also managed to escape. Thus it seems improbably that the senior Estonian crew billeted on the same upper decks 5 and 6 as the Voronin family are supposedly all drowned and we haven't heard a single word about it. Piht was witnessed by several people and reputable news outlets (Evening Standard, Helsingin Sanomat) all reported he was safe in Turku and was due to be interviewed by Bildt, Aho and the Estonian PM. He is reported to have then gone missing from Helsinki.

It is difficult to see how they could be listed as survivors and then suddenly have their names removed a day or so later. Sure, one or two likely drowned or suffered hypothermia, but ALL of them?

Yours sceptically...
 
Yes, many people do not give a darn. So what?


It's not to do with whether anyone gives a darn. It's to do with you reposting stuff you've already seen shot down. You may have forgotten, but there are plenty of people who won't have.
 
And many people don't consider spreading wild conspiracy theories about a tragedy to be much of an indication of 'giving a darn'.
 
And many people don't consider spreading wild conspiracy theories about a tragedy to be much of an indication of 'giving a darn'.

How do you know the victim support groups and the German shipbuilders are 'spreading wild conspiracy theories'? Given half the passenger survivors reported hearing loud bangs and shudders together with the dramatic thirty-five minute sinking, together with Sweden using the Estonia passenger ferry to smuggle Russian military materiel, I think it is perfectly reasonable for them to want to know why. So far there has not been any culpable party identified. There is no evidence it was 'an Act of God' either as the storm on that night was pretty normal for the Baltic.

Just because certain persons think it a huge joke, it doesn't make it so.
 
I am out. If anyone is interested in how this whole affair has come about, I can recommend Jutta Rabe's 'Baltic Storm' film (I think it is on youtube) and seems to fit the facts extraordinarily well IMV. Also the book by Drew Wilson, 'The Hole' gives the facts from all sides, together with a bibliography of sources.
 
I am out. If anyone is interested in how this whole affair has come about, I can recommend Jutta Rabe's 'Baltic Storm' film (I think it is on youtube) and seems to fit the facts extraordinarily well IMV. Also the book by Drew Wilson, 'The Hole' gives the facts from all sides, together with a bibliography of sources.

I doubt it.
 
How do you know the victim support groups and the German shipbuilders are 'spreading wild conspiracy theories'? Given half the passenger survivors reported hearing loud bangs and shudders together with the dramatic thirty-five minute sinking, together with Sweden using the Estonia passenger ferry to smuggle Russian military materiel, I think it is perfectly reasonable for them to want to know why. So far there has not been any culpable party identified. There is no evidence it was 'an Act of God' either as the storm on that night was pretty normal for the Baltic.

Just because certain persons think it a huge joke, it doesn't make it so.


I'm not accusing the victim support groups or shipbuilders of spreading conspiracy theories. As usual, you are trying to deflect criticism your position onto the victims.

And I don't think it's a huge joke. But I find people entertaining themselves by spreading conspiracy theories about a disaster in which hundreds of people died to be distasteful.
 
... I can recommend Jutta Rabe's 'Baltic Storm' film (I think it is on youtube) and seems to fit the facts extraordinarily well IMV.

This is your problem in a nutshell. You fixed on the idea that film represents reality and bend all facts to fit its template.
 
It is troubling, the missing Estonian senior crew. This is because they were initially listed as survivors.
No. This is not puzzling. You say their names were on an early list (though you cannot produce it). Who compiled this list? Was it an amalgamation of several lists of "I think Fred said he saw so-and-so"? Do you know? Can you name anyone who says they saw one of these missing men having being rescued, except for one case of mistaken identity seen on a TV news report (which still exists so we can see it wasn't actually the captain someone mistakenly thought). No, you can't.

We also know from an early evening Swedish newspaper that a rescuer, named Fänrik (Ensign) Kenneth Svensson, ytbärgare vid M/S Estonias förlisning 27 september 1994, tilldelad 15 januari 1996, received Sweden's highest medal (usually only given in war time). 'Ken' Svensson in the early day newspaper stated he had rescued seven IIRC people and he was interviewed at Huddinge Hospital in Stockholm. Yet puzzlingly, the JAIC Reports that Svensson's rescue helicopter did not even arrive at the accident scene until circa 4:00am (some three hours after the accident) and on that occasion saved one or two, having got into trouble himself. So clearly, it seems to me he DID rescue nine or so persons which has been mysteriously been wiped off the records.

No. Stop lying about this. You keep deliberately conflating the number picked up by Svennson's original helicopter with the total number picked up by Svennson. As you know perfectly well, he operated from two helicopters. Your faux confusion, after having the facts explained repeatedly in terms a small child could grasp, long ago stopped being remotely believable.

In addition, a Russian businessman name Voronin, who either shared a cabin with second Captain Arvo Piht or swapped with him; but no matter, they were in nearby cabins, managed to survive with no problems, together with his family, despite being heavily overweight and with cardiac problems. The majority of the passenger survivors were those on the upper decks, as were the quarters of the senior crew. The watch and the engineering crew who had been in the Engine Room on deck 0 (the hull) also managed to escape. Thus it seems improbably that the senior Estonian crew billeted on the same upper decks 5 and 6 as the Voronin family are supposedly all drowned and we haven't heard a single word about it.
You don't know where each of those people were when the ship heeled over. Stop pretending you know they were all sitting in their cabins.

Piht was witnessed by several people and reputable news outlets (Evening Standard, Helsingin Sanomat) all reported he was safe in Turku and was due to be interviewed by Bildt, Aho and the Estonian PM. He is reported to have then gone missing from Helsinki.

No. A survivor shown on TV news was misidentified as Piht. The video was linked in this thread. It's not him. Nobody saw him in Helsinki.

It is difficult to see how they could be listed as survivors and then suddenly have their names removed a day or so later. Sure, one or two likely drowned or suffered hypothermia, but ALL of them?
And a Texas Sharpshooter fallacy to finish off. Some names were wrongly added to initial reports of survivors. Then those lists were corrected.

All of this crap has been thoroughly dismantled. We don't need another reset.
 
It is troubling, the missing Estonian senior crew. This is because they were initially listed as survivors. We also know from an early evening Swedish newspaper that a rescuer, named Fänrik (Ensign) Kenneth Svensson, ytbärgare vid M/S Estonias förlisning 27 september 1994, tilldelad 15 januari 1996, received Sweden's highest medal (usually only given in war time). 'Ken' Svensson in the early day newspaper stated he had rescued seven IIRC people and he was interviewed at Huddinge Hospital in Stockholm. Yet puzzlingly, the JAIC Reports that Svensson's rescue helicopter did not even arrive at the accident scene until circa 4:00am (some three hours after the accident) and on that occasion saved one or two, having got into trouble himself. So clearly, it seems to me he DID rescue nine or so persons which has been mysteriously been wiped off the records.

The JAIC report credits Svensson with rescuing seven people. Stop lying.
 
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