Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[Vixen]

Considering that the people she cribs from are conspiracy theorists, utter lunatics or both, that makes her ignorant posturing even more ridiculous.

Jutta Rabe is a respected investigative journalist. She worked for quality media such as SPEIGEL. A trained journalist is not a conspiracy theorist. Whilst few journalists these days go out and about to find stories, and instead rely on copy and paste from X and TikTok or even directly plagiarising other publications, together with relying on central news agencies, such as Reuters , ANSA, AP, etc., and 'stringers', there still remain good solid gumshoe investigative journalists of the quality of John Pilger, Paul Foot and Andy Beckett. Likewise any decently interested and curious citizen is not a conspiracy theorist just because they are curious to understand how a twin tower seemed to implode from the inside when it was hit by a plane from the outside, or why did eyewitnesses report seeing something that looked like a missile pass through the air towards TW800, or even how did they manage to live stream walking on the moon to earth in 1976 to tv sets all over the world. That is how enquiring minds work. You cant stop people being curious. I doubt you have even read Jutta Rabe's book. Whether she is right or misguided, at least she got out and about and asked questions about the Estonia disaster.

Christopher Bollyn is the pseudonym of a definite conspiracy theorist. Probably, like David Icke or Russell Brand makes money from flogging his books and being an 'influencer'. He is pro-Islam and anti-Semitic so I wouldn't be surprised if his real name is Al-Something.

As for Anders Bjorkman, he's eccentric, but he is Swedish, has been following the Estonia story closely from the start. He is a masters in ship architecture, studied at a prestigious naval academy.

I wonder if you have ever read any of these people as all your opinions seem superficial kneejerk responses without any reasoning as to why you hate them.

At least I have provided reasoning, see above.

 

[Vixen]

Agreed; the sources you mention are unreliable and clearly conspiracy-mongering. But we also have to consider the response by Meyer Werft. They would not be considered conspiracy theorists, but must be considered biased. As I've mentioned many times, it is customary for an engineering company implicated in a serious incident to respond in its defense. These responses must be taken as partisan. They identify potential weaknesses in the findings, but they should never be taken as objective or final.

Exactly. Nothing wrong with that at all. That is how debates work, or courts of law. It is the Socratic method to drill down all sides of an argument. Simply trying to censor someone who disagrees with you or calling them names does not pass muster in getting the crux of a matter.

 

[Vixen]

Indeed, arse covering is a time honoured tradition in any industry. That the company that allowed the ship to be operated in the condition it was in want to deflect blame from themselves is not in and of itself confirmation they're lying, their comments shouldn't be taken as gospel either.

See what I mean? You have just assumed that Meyer Werft are arse covering and thus you cannot be bother to listen to their side of the story. They are covered by insurers. Not everything is about money. Sometimes it is about principles.

 

[Vixen]

I have yet to participate in any forensic engineering investigation that did not engender criticism from multiple parties. These are extremely charged circumstances, and the best we can do is to be as scientific and as impartial as the evidence and logic allow. There will always be criticism, and not all of it will be poorly-founded.

This, ironically, is why it's so ludicrous to imagine that the JAIC was as corrupt has has been suggested. When even the least partial work will inevitably be attacked, any intentional malfeasance will be readily apparent even through mainstream scrutiny.

Nobody is saying JAIC was corrupt. It just had its hands tied.

 

[Vixen]

I direct your attention to the fact that the Cold War had been over for around 4 years when Estonia sank. And there are plenty of Cold War incidents which remain in the shadows. This fact is not in dispute. But we are talking about single military aircraft, small commando teams, individual spies. We are not talking about a large Ro-Ro ferry with over 800 passengers onboard. I'm not going to explain the difference between a small spy plane on a classified mission and a massive public transport ship.

I also direct your attention to your own posts where you've sited Wikileaks for revealing that the Swedes and the CIA were working together more closely than publicly stated. Estonia secrets would have been with those documents.

The cold war wasn't over in 1994 by a long chalk. The remaining stalinist elite - and that includes the Estonia professional crew who trained in St Petersburg will have had lingering loyalties to the old order. 25% of Estonia the country are Russians moved in by Stalin. You only have to listen to the mad dog in control of Russia today to know how much they resent Yeltsin and Krushev letting the so-called Baltic States go. They still miss the old Iron Curtain. This was very much true in 1994 and Prime Minister Carl Bildt was absolutely determined that nothing was going to stop Estonia from being independent. To that end he had to take very great care not to rattle the bear's cage for fear Russia would decide Estonia needed protection from the West.

 

[Vixen]

You're not helping your position with this one.

All of the things you listed we knew about long ago, and we knew because people came forward with documentation to reveal these things to the press. We know Russia does a lot of dirty things because they're bad it, or just don't care, or both. I've lost track of how many Russian generals have fallen out of highrise buildings. Do I need to prove these were not accidental deaths? No. Does this make me a conspiracy theorist? Only if I take these deaths to shape an unrelated story to suit my political agenda.

MS Estoniais not hard to figure out. The ship was never designed to sail on the open ocean, and it certainly was never designed to sail in the weather conditions of that night. The crew did not do their due diligence in checking for damage, and the command crew didn't press the matter. The fact that few of the crew survived indicates most were unaware and unalert until it was too late. Doesn't matter what vehicles or "stolen military hardware" could have been on the car deck. All that matters was the ship failed at it's weakest point, which was also it's most catastrophic point. The sea floor is littered with ships that share the same story. And not one of them was a conspiracy.

That is the null hypothesis. But there are so many things that rule out a simple accident.

 

[JayUtah]

That is the null hypothesis. But there are so many things that rule out a simple accident.

No. That is not a judgment you're qualified to make.

 

[JayUtah]

Nobody is saying JAIC was corrupt. It just had its hands tied.

Fine, call it whatever you want. But the opinion that they were compromised in some way and therefore the product of their labor must be unsound is begging the question.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Jutta Rabe is a respected investigative journalist. She worked for quality media such as SPEIGEL. A trained journalist is not a conspiracy theorist. Whilst few journalists these days go out and about to find stories, and instead rely on copy and paste from X and TikTok or even directly plagiarising other publications, together with relying on central news agencies, such as Reuters , ANSA, AP, etc., and 'stringers', there still remain good solid gumshoe investigative journalists of the quality of John Pilger, Paul Foot and Andy Beckett. Likewise any decently interested and curious citizen is not a conspiracy theorist just because they are curious to understand how a twin tower seemed to implode from the inside when it was hit by a plane from the outside, or why did eyewitnesses report seeing something that looked like a missile pass through the air towards TW800, or even how did they manage to live stream walking on the moon to earth in 1976 to tv sets all over the world. That is how enquiring minds work. You cant stop people being curious. I doubt you have even read Jutta Rabe's book. Whether she is right or misguided, at least she got out and about and asked questions about the Estonia disaster.

She's a conspiracy theorist. She made things up about the Estonia.

Christopher Bollyn is the pseudonym of a definite conspiracy theorist. Probably, like David Icke or Russell Brand makes money from flogging his books and being an 'influencer'. He is pro-Islam and anti-Semitic so I wouldn't be surprised if his real name is Al-Something.

Its not a pseudonym, it's his real name.

As for Anders Bjorkman, he's eccentric, but he is Swedish, has been following the Estonia story closely from the start.

No, Anders Bjorkman is a lunatic who doesn't believe that nuclear bombs are possible and thinks you can model the collapse of the World Trade Centre with cheese or pizza boxes. He is a crackpot.

He is a masters in ship architecture, studied at a prestigious naval academy.

Which even if true doesn't mean a thing when you consider his utter failure at even basic physics here at this forum.

Oh don't you remember? We've actually spoken to Bjorkman. He's a delusional crank. His grasp of physics was so poor I could blow holes in his arguments and I've not studied physics since my GCSEs.

He's not just some harmless eccentric. He's an absolute howling-at-the-moon deranged nutjob.

I wonder if you have ever read any of these people as all your opinions seem superficial kneejerk responses without any reasoning as to why you hate them.

At least I have provided reasoning, see above.

Amazing. It's almost like you've not actually read what I've written and made up my side of the argument in your own head. Again.

We went over the two, for want of a better word, gentlemen previously in copies of this thread, and you had your head handed to you when you tried to rehabilitate them then. Do you wish to try again? I'd love to know how someone who doesn't think accept basic physics is competent to deal with anything even remotely physics based.

The cold war wasn't over in 1994 by a long chalk. The remaining stalinist elite - and that includes the Estonia professional crew who trained in St Petersburg will have had lingering loyalties to the old order. 25% of Estonia the country are Russians moved in by Stalin. You only have to listen to the mad dog in control of Russia today to know how much they resent Yeltsin and Krushev letting the so-called Baltic States go. They still miss the old Iron Curtain. This was very much true in 1994 and Prime Minister Carl Bildt was absolutely determined that nothing was going to stop Estonia from being independent. To that end he had to take very great care not to rattle the bear's cage for fear Russia would decide Estonia needed protection from the West.

Oh, are we going to dip our toes into my area of expertise again?

Because yes, the Cold War was very much over in 1994. Under Yeltsin Russia was attempting to buddy up to the West and the West wanted it to do so, as long as it remained poor. Most of the "Stalinist Elite" was gone a good, oh I'd say two decades prior.

The USSR wasn't Stalinist by the end and not just because of Gorbachev. You really don't know what you're talking about and it's so adorable that you think you can presume to teach this topic.

 

[JayUtah]

Exactly. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Nothing wrong so long as you understand that the manufacturer's response is not somehow more reliable.

It is the Socratic method to drill down all sides of an argument. Simply trying to censor someone who disagrees with you or calling them names does not pass muster in getting the crux of a matter.

All sides of an argument are never created equal when it comes to facts, judgment, and equanimity. Your wacky theories have been given 400 pages of hearing without any of them being able to stand up to scrutiny. You're not an equal participant in a debate over whether a forensic engineering investigation was done correctly.

See what I mean? You have just assumed that Meyer Werft are arse covering...

They are.

...and thus you cannot be bother to listen to their side of the story.

I have heard their side of the story and I've explained why it's mostly just attempts to muddy the water. That's how I know (not assume) that they're mounting a partisan defense.

This is my industry. I know what happens in it and you don't. I'm not debating with you; I'm telling you why you're wrong.

They are covered by insurers. Not everything is about money.

I never mentioned money. An engineering company's reputation for safety and conscientious design is more important.

Sometimes it is about principles.

No, this is not a case where Meyer Werft have only noble intentions and the JAIC is invariably compromised.

 

[JayUtah]

As for Anders Bjorkman, he's eccentric, but he is Swedish, has been following the Estonia story closely from the start. He is a masters in ship architecture, studied at a prestigious naval academy.

Björkmann is a crackpot. He misstated and misrepresented his expertise, which is why he was fired from the company he worked for when MS Estonia sank. He is not an expert in ship design. He was never an expert in ship design. No one today regards him as an expert in ship design, or as anything other than an obvious crackpot.

I wonder if you have ever read any of these people as all your opinions seem superficial kneejerk responses without any reasoning as to why you hate them.

I've debated Anders Björkmann directly, including on the subject of MS Estonia and ship stability. I'm far more qualified than you are to determine if he is who he says he is and whether his ideas have merit. You seem to just believe everything he says about himself without question.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

It's like Vixen completely forgot the last time Bjorkman's insanity was brought up and we told her repeatedly that we've actually had conversations with the guy.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Heiwa was using the EU flag in order to present himself as an official European agency. In Europe, everything that shows such misleading thoughts is illegal. I bet the EU killed Heiwa's personal web pages with fire.

I even found a comment from a thread here discussing how he was illegally misrepresenting himself on his website.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Even better, I found a thread including a link to a comment made by Christopher Bollyn

Christopher Bollyn: JREF is a psy-op funded by the military-industrial complex

Amazing.

 

[Axxman300]

Oh, are we going to dip our toes into my area of expertise again?

Because yes, the Cold War was very much over in 1994. Under Yeltsin Russia was attempting to buddy up to the West and the West wanted it to do so, as long as it remained poor. Most of the "Stalinist Elite" was gone a good, oh I'd say two decades prior.

The USSR wasn't Stalinist by the end and not just because of Gorbachev. You really don't know what you're talking about and it's so adorable that you think you can presume to teach this topic.

Yeltsin was in Washington D.C. on the night of the sinking, meeting with Clinton, and apparently running around drunk in his underwear.

 

[Axxman300]

That is the null hypothesis. But there are so many things that rule out a simple accident.

Had you been paying attention you'd know there was nothing simple about this accident. On top of the storm, and the reckless sailing speed of the ship, there were a number of smaller mechanical failures, and what turned out to be big design failures.

And there was actually a conspiracy. The shipping company skimped on or avoided repairs, and upgrades, poorly trained the crew, and it looks like key certificates were signed without proper inspections made. I know it's not as sexy as Cold War intrigue, and spy crap, but that's what most real conspiracies look like; a bunch of key people looking the other way because it's profitable to do so.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Yeltsin was in Washington D.C. on the night of the sinking, meeting with Clinton, and apparently running around drunk in his underwear.

None of that is shocking.

 

[Vixen]

She's a conspiracy theorist. She made things up about the Estonia.


Its not a pseudonym, it's his real name.


No, Anders Bjorkman is a lunatic who doesn't believe that nuclear bombs are possible and thinks you can model the collapse of the World Trade Centre with cheese or pizza boxes. He is a crackpot.

Which even if true doesn't mean a thing when you consider his utter failure at even basic physics here at this forum.

Oh don't you remember? We've actually spoken to Bjorkman. He's a delusional crank. His grasp of physics was so poor I could blow holes in his arguments and I've not studied physics since my GCSEs.

He's not just some harmless eccentric. He's an absolute howling-at-the-moon deranged nutjob.


Amazing. It's almost like you've not actually read what I've written and made up my side of the argument in your own head. Again.

We went over the two, for want of a better word, gentlemen previously in copies of this thread, and you had your head handed to you when you tried to rehabilitate them then. Do you wish to try again? I'd love to know how someone who doesn't think accept basic physics is competent to deal with anything even remotely physics based.



Oh, are we going to dip our toes into my area of expertise again?

Because yes, the Cold War was very much over in 1994. Under Yeltsin Russia was attempting to buddy up to the West and the West wanted it to do so, as long as it remained poor. Most of the "Stalinist Elite" was gone a good, oh I'd say two decades prior.

The USSR wasn't Stalinist by the end and not just because of Gorbachev. You really don't know what you're talking about and it's so adorable that you think you can presume to teach this topic.

Ha ha. There are still plenty of stalinists around. Last time I was in London there was still the same old boy trying to sell Next Step - or was it Morning Star - outside ULU. There are also plenty of Thatcherites around, despite the fact she's not been in power for yonks, either.

After the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991 there might have been some bromance between Russia and the West but I don't think we have ever really trusted them.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I'm sure that guy selling Morning Star is a real elite.

There are Stalinists around, sure, but they weren't part of the "elite" in the USSR. Indeed Khrushchev and Brezhnev chucked supporters of Stalin just like Stalin chucked supporters of Lenin. Oh there were a few holdouts, people who were too useful or too ingrained, but to claim that the USSR was Stalinist in the 1990s is laughable.

Not going to deal with anything else I posted then? You do have a habit of ignoring vast swathes of a post and only focusing on one small detail that you think you can actually rebut. That you never can makes it all the more amusing.

 

[Vixen]

Nothing wrong so long as you understand that the manufacturer's response is not somehow more reliable.



All sides of an argument are never created equal when it comes to facts, judgment, and equanimity. Your wacky theories have been given 400 pages of hearing without any of them being able to stand up to scrutiny. You're not an equal participant in a debate over whether a forensic engineering investigation was done correctly.



They are.



I have heard their side of the story and I've explained why it's mostly just attempts to muddy the water. That's how I know (not assume) that they're mounting a partisan defense.

This is my industry. I know what happens in it and you don't. I'm not debating with you; I'm telling you why you're wrong.



I never mentioned money. An engineering company's reputation for safety and conscientious design is more important.



No, this is not a case where Meyer Werft have only noble intentions and the JAIC is invariably compromised.

Meyer-Werft or just Werft is a German shipbuilding company that has shipbuilding yards all around the nordic ports. It provides work to thousands. There is no way the Swedish shipping lines 'didn't have automatic EPIRB's until 1999' having the Hammar factory in Sweden itself. They are not an undeveloped third world semi-literate country that cannot quite understand new regulation or have insufficient funds to have the most uptodate passenger ships. Standard care and maintenance would be as second nature as breathing in air. Yes, there was poor maintenance around the issue of the car ramp and bow visor lock, with crew hammering the thing into place and yes, that is a defect rightly pointed out.

However, if Meyer Werft having looked at the specifications and the details of the disaster in fine toothcomb detail, had it become apparent at any stage that their engineering design was the prima facie cause of the accident, their lawyers and insurers would have insisted they just pay a tidy sum in settlement to the victims' families together with non-disclosure agreements and case closed. The public have short memories. It wouldn't much affect their reputation and shipbuilding just carries on as normal.

But Meyer Werft do not accept responsibility for the accident as a matter of principle.