Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[Vixen]

Björkmann is a crackpot. He misstated and misrepresented his expertise, which is why he was fired from the company he worked for when MS Estonia sank. He is not an expert in ship design. He was never an expert in ship design. No one today regards him as an expert in ship design, or as anything other than an obvious crackpot.



I've debated Anders Björkmann directly, including on the subject of MS Estonia and ship stability. I'm far more qualified than you are to determine if he is who he says he is and whether his ideas have merit. You seem to just believe everything he says about himself without question.

A person can be a crackpot yet still be skilled in their speciality. For example, Bobby Fisher was some kind of latent paranoid schizophrenic, nutty as a fruitcake and totally obnoxious in his final years, yet that doesn't cancel out the fact he was a chess genius, albeit quite a nasty character with his psyching out his opponents. Sir Isaac Newton, father of so many scientific principles, was near autistic. He had no friends. Was a complete loner. Sat under a tree all day. It doesn't mean we should dismiss his various laws of physics. Likewise, many composers and writers were raging alcoholics...you get the picture.

I don't know what Bjorkman has to say about any other subject but his knowledge of Estonia is perfectly sound, even if he is otherwise a crackpot.

 

[Vixen]

Even better, I found a thread including a link to a comment made by Christopher Bollyn



Amazing.

Christopher Bollyn does not exist. He is a made up character. There is nothing in wikipedia about him. His self-description is that he attended University of California and studied the Middle East (=there's a clue!). He is a true conspiracy theorist. His real name is probably Boris Bollockski from a Russian propaganda disinformation farm, or more likely, given his obsession with Mossad being behind everything, someone called Mohamed Al-MisinformationGuyrezi. Aim: to undermine Western values and stir up discontent and doubt.

My advice to you is learn how to spot misinformation merchants. As soon as you see the word 'psyop', read no further and block.

Don't waste your time.

 

[Vixen]

Yeltsin was in Washington D.C. on the night of the sinking, meeting with Clinton, and apparently running around drunk in his underwear.

Indeed, and according to wikileaks, Carl Bildt was a CIA operative.

Truth can be stranger than fiction and even pure comedy.

 

[Vixen]

Had you been paying attention you'd know there was nothing simple about this accident. On top of the storm, and the reckless sailing speed of the ship, there were a number of smaller mechanical failures, and what turned out to be big design failures.

And there was actually a conspiracy. The shipping company skimped on or avoided repairs, and upgrades, poorly trained the crew, and it looks like key certificates were signed without proper inspections made. I know it's not as sexy as Cold War intrigue, and spy crap, but that's what most real conspiracies look like; a bunch of key people looking the other way because it's profitable to do so.

You'll probably find similar faults on any passenger ship picked at random. Why? Because to err is human. Incompetence and cock-up rather than fatal design any moment now.

The accident happened with military precision. Midnight. Midpoint. Bildt last day at midnight. Communications down for an hour. Russian signal block. Lifesaving equipment dumped. EPIRB's switched off. Sunk in half an hour. Smuggled Soviet materiel on board.

Military operation written all over it.

It would have had a Swedish submarine escorting it. That is how outgoing PM Bildt knew about it so quickly (he was pulled from his leaving party to be told).

 

[Vixen]

I'm sure that guy selling Morning Star is a real elite.

There are Stalinists around, sure, but they weren't part of the "elite" in the USSR. Indeed Khrushchev and Brezhnev chucked supporters of Stalin just like Stalin chucked supporters of Lenin. Oh there were a few holdouts, people who were too useful or too ingrained, but to claim that the USSR was Stalinist in the 1990s is laughable.

Not going to deal with anything else I posted then? You do have a habit of ignoring vast swathes of a post and only focusing on one small detail that you think you can actually rebut. That you never can makes it all the more amusing.

No. What I said was that there were plenty of stalinists still loyal to the old order. Putin is one such.

What is the outstanding question you had?

 

[zooterkin]

Meyer-Werft or just Werft is a German shipbuilding company that has shipbuilding yards all around the nordic ports. It provides work to thousands. There is no way the Swedish shipping lines 'didn't have automatic EPIRB's until 1999' having the Hammar factory in Sweden itself. They are not an undeveloped third world semi-literate country that cannot quite understand new regulation or have insufficient funds to have the most uptodate passenger ships. Standard care and maintenance would be as second nature as breathing in air. Yes, there was poor maintenance around the issue of the car ramp and bow visor lock, with crew hammering the thing into place and yes, that is a defect rightly pointed out.

However, if Meyer Werft having looked at the specifications and the details of the disaster in fine toothcomb detail, had it become apparent at any stage that their engineering design was the prima facie cause of the accident, their lawyers and insurers would have insisted they just pay a tidy sum in settlement to the victims' families together with non-disclosure agreements and case closed. The public have short memories. It wouldn't much affect their reputation and shipbuilding just carries on as normal.

But Meyer Werft do not accept responsibility for the accident as a matter of principle.

You'll probably find similar faults on any passenger ship picked at random. Why? Because to err is human. Incompetence and cock-up rather than fatal design any moment now.

The accident happened with military precision. Midnight. Midpoint. Bildt last day at midnight. Communications down for an hour. Russian signal block. Lifesaving equipment dumped. EPIRB's switched off. Sunk in half an hour. Smuggled Soviet materiel on board.

Military operation written all over it.

It would have had a Swedish submarine escorting it. That is how outgoing PM Bildt knew about it so quickly (he was pulled from his leaving party to be told).

What's that proverb about straining at a gnat, but swallowing a camel?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Christopher Bollyn does not exist. He is a made up character. There is nothing in wikipedia about him. His self-description is that he attended University of California and studied the Middle East (=there's a clue!). He is a true conspiracy theorist. His real name is probably Boris Bollockski from a Russian propaganda disinformation farm, or more likely, given his obsession with Mossad being behind everything, someone called Mohamed Al-MisinformationGuyrezi. Aim: to undermine Western values and stir up discontent and doubt.

My advice to you is learn how to spot misinformation merchants. As soon as you see the word 'psyop', read no further and block.

Don't waste your time.

Yes, he does. You can't possibly believe that he's a fake person.

Just because someone doesn't have a wikipedia page means they aren't real?

 

[SpitfireIX]

Christopher Bollyn does not exist. He is a made up character. There is nothing in wikipedia about him. His self-description is that he attended University of California and studied the Middle East (=there's a clue!). He is a true conspiracy theorist. His real name is probably Boris Bollockski from a Russian propaganda disinformation farm, or more likely, given his obsession with Mossad being behind everything, someone called Mohamed Al-MisinformationGuyrezi. Aim: to undermine Western values and stir up discontent and doubt.

My advice to you is learn how to spot misinformation merchants. As soon as you see the word 'psyop', read no further and block.

Don't waste your time.

From the Chicago Tribune, Sept. 8, 2006:

A Hoffman Estates writer who claims Israeli agents were involved in the World Trade Center attack said police arrested him and shot him with a stun gun because of his views.

But police say Christopher Bollyn was arrested during an altercation with officers last month because police feared he was going to get a weapon, which Bollyn denies. He was charged with aggravated assault and resisting arrest.

Bollyn writes for several Web sites, including one run by American Free Press, a Washington weekly publication that has published articles, including some by Bollyn, raising the possibility that Israel was the behind the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

Last weekend, the publication co-sponsored a conference in Washington with the Barnes Review, a publication that considers the Holocaust a myth.​

 

[MarkCorrigan]

No. What I said was that there were plenty of stalinists still loyal to the old order. Putin is one such.

No, you said Stalinist elite. Pretty unambiguous.

What is the outstanding question you had?

You're not serious.

 

[Andy_Ross]

There wasn't a submarine escorting the ferry.

You are just making any old **** up

 

[P.J. Denyer]

There wasn't a submarine escorting the ferry.

You are just making any old **** up

Then what left the Submarine Tracks, eh Mr Clever Clogs??11!

D)

 

[Here_to_learn]

Indeed, and according to wikileaks, Carl Bildt was a CIA operative.

No... https://wikileaks.org/Kristinn-Hrafnsson-The-Great.html

 

[Mojo]

My advice to you is learn how to spot misinformation merchants.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Indeed, and according to wikileaks, Carl Bildt was a CIA operative.

Truth can be stranger than fiction and even pure comedy.

 

[Vixen]

From the Chicago Tribune, Sept. 8, 2006:

A Hoffman Estates writer who claims Israeli agents were involved in the World Trade Center attack said police arrested him and shot him with a stun gun because of his views.

But police say Christopher Bollyn was arrested during an altercation with officers last month because police feared he was going to get a weapon, which Bollyn denies. He was charged with aggravated assault and resisting arrest.

Bollyn writes for several Web sites, including one run by American Free Press, a Washington weekly publication that has published articles, including some by Bollyn, raising the possibility that Israel was the behind the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

Last weekend, the publication co-sponsored a conference in Washington with the Barnes Review, a publication that considers the Holocaust a myth.​

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/17060474efd47d7e6b.jpg[/qimg]

It doesn't mean he's not a fake personna. I wouldn't be surprised if he faked an altercation with the police to add credence to his, er, credentials as a campaigner against 'false flag operations'. It is not his real name. He is an actor in the entertainments industry, not dissimilar to David Icke or Russell Brand: just a form of money making.

 

[JayUtah]

A person can be a crackpot yet still be skilled in their speciality.

In Björkmann's case, the thing he claims as his specialty is exactly the thing he's obviously crackpot about.

For example, Bobby Fisher...

...is nothing like Anders Björkmann.

Sir Isaac Newton...

...is nothing like Anders Björkmann.

you get the picture.

Yes, you're desperately trying to compare schizophrenia, autism, and alcoholism to a situation here where they don't apply. You cite examples of people who rose above various afflictions irrelevant to their genius in order to become recognized successes.

None of that is anything like Anders Björkmann. When we say he is a crackpot we don't mean that he has an "eccentric personality" or in any of the other ways you've tried to sweep his incompetence under the carpet. We mean that he is demonstrably ignorant or in denial of basic principles of science and engineering, despite holding himself out as an expert. We mean that he seeks public attention by misrepresenting himself and stirring up unfounded controversy. Unlike your examples, Björkmann hasn't risen above anything to become anyone. He's still wallowing in conspiracism, and your equivocal attempt—once again!—to rehabilitate him as some kind of expert is just comically naïve.

I don't know what Bjorkman has to say about any other subject...

Yes, you do. The full spectrum of his ignorance has been explained to you many times by people who know him and his public shenanigans far better than you do. You're in denial.

but his knowledge of Estonia is perfectly sound, even if he is otherwise a crackpot.

No.

First, you aren't qualified to determine whether his claims are sound.

Second, his conspiratorial twaddle regarding MS Estonia is not some magical exception to his science crackpottery and conspiracy-mongering. It's just another example of it. Claiming, by means of that attention-seeking over the sinking, that he is some sort of expert in shipbuilding is how he lost his job. He isn't an expert, but he claimed to be as part of his conspiracy-mongering. It doesn't seem to have crossed your mind that Björkmann might be lying to get attention.

Anders Björkmann isn't recognized by anyone as an expert in shipbuilding, or any any other kind of science or engineering field. And you've been shown the evidence why.

 

[JayUtah]

Meyer-Werft or just Werft is a German shipbuilding company...
***
...accident as a matter of principle.

What a great fairy tale. Quite a lot of "would'ves" and "should'ves" for someone who doesn't work in the industry and has no clue how it operates or responds to accident and failure. This is the industry I've worked in for more than 30 years. I'm not debating you; I'm telling you why you're wrong.

Again why armchair detectives are worse than useless.

 

[Axxman300]

Indeed, and according to wikileaks, Carl Bildt was a CIA operative.

Truth can be stranger than fiction and even pure comedy.

He wasn't an operative, he cooperated with US intelligence, but was not controlled by US intelligence. The technical name is Asset. Just someone we could count upon to get us information when we needed it.

 

[Axxman300]

You'll probably find similar faults on any passenger ship picked at random. Why? Because to err is human. Incompetence and cock-up rather than fatal design any moment now.

This is probably true in most countries. Incompetence and corruption go hand-in-hand. Some countries have lower standards than others, and a few have no standards. And this is why the MS Estonia sank.

The accident happened with military precision.

You need to stop using that phrase. After 20+ years of the Global War on Terror, and watching Russia's "Military Operation" in Ukraine, it is painfully obvious there is no precision at all.

Midnight. Midpoint.

You ignore the storm, which is the primary factor of this sinking. The ship put to sea late. The caption sailed at flank speed into the waves, which were breaking high over the bow.

Bildt last day at midnight.

Wouldn't it make more sense to sink it after he left his office? And if he's all-powerful, why no sink it on an earlier sortie? And please show me where Bildt has acted in a nefarious way since leaving that office. He does nothing but work for peace, and social justice in Europe, I guess that makes him evil to some people.

Communications down for an hour. Russian signal block.

Discussed, and debunked.

Lifesaving equipment dumped. EPIRB's switched off

This is a lie.

Sunk in half an hour.

As a normal person should expect with the bow visor gone and car ramp down, and the North Sea pouring in through the massive opening.

Smuggled Soviet materiel on board.

Another lie.

Military operation written all over it.

Who's military? Please say it was the Swiss Navy.

It would have had a Swedish submarine escorting it. That is how outgoing PM Bildt knew about it so quickly (he was pulled from his leaving party to be told).

Submarine again? Maybe it was the HMS Bullocks.

And I could be wrong, but I think Sweden had telephones and radios in 1994. It's possible those crafty Swedes took advantage of this technology to communicate with the ships at sea, and the resources on shore. Call me crazy.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It would have had a Swedish submarine escorting it. That is how outgoing PM Bildt knew about it so quickly (he was pulled from his leaving party to be told).

What is your source for these claims?

At what time do you claim Bildt was told, and how does that compare with the time Finnish coastguards informed their Swedish counterparts of the mayday from the Estonia?

And we may as well ask the other obvious question: what was this fantasy submarine there for? What do you imagine a submarine escorting a passenger ferry was expected to do if anything untoward happened?