Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[JayUtah]

There is actually a live-streamed video of the submerged subcontracted naval divers - and you can even hear their British accents - reporting to whoever was handling them higher up on deck. They can be seen pushing open the bridge door and you can even see what looks like the legs and feet of a body as he enters.

None of this addresses the points I raised.

 

[Mojo]

But it wasn't 'illegal'. It was rubber-stamped by a government official, and as noted by the UN tribunal.

The illegal part was Sweden allowing its border officers to be subordinated to the officers of a foreign power (CIA), who enabled the two men to be subjected to torture by sending them to the centre they were sent to.

The fact it was their home country, Egypt, was just circumstantial, they could have just as easily been sent to Guatanamo Bay. It was nothing to do with 'Being deported back to your own country', which is what is usually meant.

Since you are now taking issue with Mark's description of the deportation as illegal, can we take it that you have abandoned your claim that he said it was "an ordinary deportation"?

 

[Vixen]

Since you are now taking issue with Mark's description of the deportation as illegal, can we take it that you have abandoned your claim that he said it was "an ordinary deportation"?

He certainly was claiming that it was an ordinary deportation (not "an ordinary deportation" in direct quote quotation marks). That is the sense he intended and that is the sense he conveyed. He did not in any way understand the pair had been disappeared.

Sorry, are you now trying to make out that he agreed with me and without demur that it was a disappearance?

 

[lobosrul5]

The Battle of Stalingrad was 1942 - 1943. I was rather researching the development of WWII from the earliest stages. Although I have to say the TIMES coverage of Stalingrad was excellent with detailed maps and graphics. It was really the only truly decent newspaper at the time and it had the reputation of only being read by the ruling classes, which may be why more information was given. (As compared to the DAILY SKETCH or the DAILY MAIL who tended to concentrate on the bomb attacks in England.)

Likewise it is worthwhile looking at the early reports of the Estonia sinking because it was reported seven or nine guys were rescued at 02:00am or thereabouts and Ken was the hero. Likewise, we see on the first day, the verdict it was the fault of the bow visor and a 'few strong waves'.

Please give me a primary source for that phrase from a newspaper.

 

[JayUtah]

He certainly was claiming that it was an ordinary deportation (not "an ordinary deportation" in direct quote quotation marks). That is the sense he intended...

Shouldn't MarkCorrigan—not you—be the authority on what MarkCorrigan intended? He has already indicated that you took a meaning he did not intend. Nor, as you now concede, did he write what you say he wrote. How is this simply not you desperately trying to pretend something was said that was not?

He did not in any way understand the pair had been disappeared.

No, enforced disappearance has a specific legal definition which is not satisfied by the events described.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The Battle of Stalingrad was 1942 - 1943. I was rather researching the development of WWII from the earliest stages. Although I have to say the TIMES coverage of Stalingrad was excellent with detailed maps and graphics. It was really the only truly decent newspaper at the time and it had the reputation of only being read by the ruling classes, which may be why more information was given. (As compared to the DAILY SKETCH or the DAILY MAIL who tended to concentrate on the bomb attacks in England.)

Likewise it is worthwhile looking at the early reports of the Estonia sinking because it was reported seven or nine guys were rescued at 02:00am or thereabouts and Ken was the hero. Likewise, we see on the first day, the verdict it was the fault of the bow visor and a 'few strong waves'.

Coverage of Stalingrad was limited to official announcements by the Russians and Germans.
Most of what was said at the time was propaganda.
It wasn't until the fall of the Soviet Union that any accurate information came from the Russian side and post war German information was tainted by lots of self serving memoirs from surviving participants
I have already recommended a good introductory book. Anything written before the fall of the Soviet Union is unreliable.

 

[Mojo]

He certainly was claiming that it was an ordinary deportation (not "an ordinary deportation" in direct quote quotation marks).

Nope, he clearly characterised it as illegal, not ordinary. The quotation marks, incidentally, were because I was quoting you.

That is the sense he intended and that is the sense he conveyed. He did not in any way understand the pair had been disappeared.

You have failed to cite reliable sources that say they were disappeared. The Committee Against Torture decision you have linked to doesn't, for example. The reliable sources all describe it as an illegal deportation or expulsion. The only person who seems to think it was legal is you.

Sorry, are you now trying to make out that he agreed with me and without demur that it was a disappearance?

No, and I can't see how you could possibly conclude that.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It ties in with Ken Svensson and his heroic nine rescues taken directly to Stockholm within hours of the ship's sinking...

No it doesn't because your secret helicopter abduction tale is the stupidest fantasy of the lot (with the possible exception of nuclear waste melting the bow ramp hinges).

Scene goes like this:

"Prime minister, we have a report of a Mayday from the Estonia ferry; it may be sinking."
"What? The ferry the military brought some old Soviet stuff back on a couple of times and we got the customs people to wave through? That's suspicious. Detain all the ships officers."
"Okay, but how?"
"Launch our fastest helicopter! Send it to ... where are they?"
"Somewhere out in the middle of the Baltic."
"Okay. Send our helicopter there and tell them to pick up the ship's officers. Just the officers. In the dark. Don't go rescuing passengers. I expect they'll all have got into one lifeboat. That's what officers do, right? So just find that one, in the dark. And bring them all back here and never tell anyone about it."
"How will we stop them talking about it?"
"Give one of them a medal for something else."
"Just one? What about the rest?"
"No, just one. Pick one at random and give him a medal. That'll shut them up. Trust me."
"So what do we do when we get them? Ask them if they saw anything suspicious?"
"No. Just make them disappear. It's the traditional Swedish approach. I feel sure that will be much better than just investigating what's happened, somehow."

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I have already recommended a good introductory book.

My copy of Beevor's Stalingrad just landed on the doormat. No spoilers, eh?

 

[Vixen]

Coverage of Stalingrad was limited to official announcements by the Russians and Germans.
Most of what was said at the time was propaganda.
It wasn't until the fall of the Soviet Union that any accurate information came from the Russian side and post war German information was tainted by lots of self serving memoirs from surviving participants
I have already recommended a good introductory book. Anything written before the fall of the Soviet Union is unreliable.

Be that as it may, the articles about Stalingrad are quite separate from the article reporting on what German soldiers had to say about Brits. It hardly gave away any military information other than that.

 

[Vixen]

Nope, he clearly characterised it as illegal, not ordinary. The quotation marks, incidentally, were because I was quoting you.




You have failed to cite reliable sources that say they were disappeared. The Committee Against Torture decision you have linked to doesn't, for example. The reliable sources all describe it as an illegal deportation or expulsion. The only person who seems to think it was legal is you.




No, and I can't see how you could possibly conclude that.

How can it be 'illegal' if it was signed off by a lawmaker official?

It is an accepted matter of fact that the process was a CIA rendition. That was the operation and the intent. The fact one of the guys was located after two days doesn't make it go away. No amount of shaking your head makes it go away.

In July 2008 and September 19, 2008, they were each awarded 3 million SEK ($380,000) in damages in a settlement with the Swedish ministry of justice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repatriation_of_Ahmed_Agiza_and_Muhammad_al-Zery

From Svenska Dagbladet 20.12.11 page 18:

When two human organizations wanted to map the CIA's secret air transports of suspected terrorists in the world, they asked 28 countries for information. Sweden is one of only three countries that directly refuses to provide information.

A high-profile CIA flight concerns the plane that transported the Egyptians Mohammad Alzery and Ahmed Agiza from Bromma to Egypt in December 2001, where they were then tortured in prison.

Caroline Karlsson, political expert at the Minister of Infrastructure Catharina Elmsäter-Svärd (m), states security and personal integrity as reasons why the information has not been provided.

So as of 2011, Sweden has classified information about disappeared subjects it hesitates to share. Why? The nine Estonians were not Swedish citizens or residents, which might be a clue. And they had let their border officials be subordinated to those of the CIA as late as 2001. (See above.)

 

[Vixen]

No it doesn't because your secret helicopter abduction tale is the stupidest fantasy of the lot (with the possible exception of nuclear waste melting the bow ramp hinges).

Scene goes like this:

"Prime minister, we have a report of a Mayday from the Estonia ferry; it may be sinking."
"What? The ferry the military brought some old Soviet stuff back on a couple of times and we got the customs people to wave through? That's suspicious. Detain all the ships officers."
"Okay, but how?"
"Launch our fastest helicopter! Send it to ... where are they?"
"Somewhere out in the middle of the Baltic."
"Okay. Send our helicopter there and tell them to pick up the ship's officers. Just the officers. In the dark. Don't go rescuing passengers. I expect they'll all have got into one lifeboat. That's what officers do, right? So just find that one, in the dark. And bring them all back here and never tell anyone about it."
"How will we stop them talking about it?"
"Give one of them a medal for something else."
"Just one? What about the rest?"
"No, just one. Pick one at random and give him a medal. That'll shut them up. Trust me."
"So what do we do when we get them? Ask them if they saw anything suspicious?"
"No. Just make them disappear. It's the traditional Swedish approach. I feel sure that will be much better than just investigating what's happened, somehow."

Scene goes like this:

"Prime minister, we have a report of a Mayday from the Estonia ferry; it may be sinking."
"What? The ferry the military brought some old Soviet stuff back on a couple of times and we got the customs people to wave through? OH MY GOD!!!
The Russians were not joking when they warned us three times not to do it. That's suspicious. Detain all the ships officers. Must be those treasonous stalinist Estonians gave them the tip-off this time."
"Okay, but how?"
"Launch our fastest helicopter! Send it to ... where are they?"
"Somewhere out in the middle of the Baltic."
"Okay. Send our helicopter there and tell them to pick up the survivors. AS A MATTER OF PRIORITY.

Two hours later.

"Some incredible news, Prime Minister, Ensign Kenneth managed to locate a lifeboat, and you'll never guess what - it has ten crew members-"

"My man at MUST says his guy at the CIA wants to question them, thinks it was a terrorist attack. Sank in half an hour like a stone. Bring'em to Stockholm and there'll be a plane waiting. '


'Just the officers. In the dark. Don't go rescuing passengers. I expect they'll all have got into one lifeboat. That's what officers do, right? So just find that one, in the dark. And bring them all back here and never tell anyone about it. - Oh and by the way, this is Top Military Secret for now. Media blackout.'

"How will we stop them talking about it?"

'Tell'em it was an accident - the bow visor met a strong wave and er, um, it fell off - whatever.'

"Oh, and give Ken a bloody medal."
"Just one? What about the rest?"
"No, just one. Pick one at random and give him a medal. That'll shut them up. Trust me."
"So what do we do when we get them? Ask them if they saw anything suspicious?"
"No. Just make them disappear. The CIA will deal with it. I have been on the blower to Bill and he says he'll take care of it all.'

 

[Andy_Ross]

**** off with this ****
We went through all the helicopter operations in great detail already.
You were shown to be wrong and making up your own **** and lies back then
Don't ******* do it again as if the previous posts never existed.

Other posters shouldn't respond to the helicopter ****.

 

[junkshop]

I have started compiling a playlist to accompany this thread.

Here's what I have so far:

Research: https://youtu.be/6MlekR4_Cd0?si=DCxPkfy5J1k9VhHF

Windmills of Your Mind: https://youtu.be/WEhS9Y9HYjU?si=z-amQG0IxX28ROl6

Everything Old is New Again: https://youtu.be/X4p9NeN6P3Q?si=ImuHM8fBPzmYOG5q

Will It Go 'Round in Circles: https://youtu.be/FFHMdY9HijM?si=ISUn2uhLuavg7TNs

Deja Vu (All Over Again): https://youtu.be/jiojReSUfLo?si=MR1ERNrMR_-mVnHG

Repetition: https://youtu.be/qQCJYicmOpA?si=SRtYiJwh1t1aSfx8

Any further suggestions are welcome...

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Anything off The Offspring's "Conspiracy of One" should do.


And there's a single line of good advice in Billy Joel's "Anthony's Song" that many here might want to consider.

 

[JayUtah]

Scene goes like this:

So a conspiracy theory, then. What happened to, "I'm only posting current events?"

 

[GlennB]

I have started compiling a playlist to accompany this thread.

Here's what I have so far:

Research: https://youtu.be/6MlekR4_Cd0?si=DCxPkfy5J1k9VhHF

Windmills of Your Mind: https://youtu.be/WEhS9Y9HYjU?si=z-amQG0IxX28ROl6

Everything Old is New Again: https://youtu.be/X4p9NeN6P3Q?si=ImuHM8fBPzmYOG5q

Will It Go 'Round in Circles: https://youtu.be/FFHMdY9HijM?si=ISUn2uhLuavg7TNs

Deja Vu (All Over Again): https://youtu.be/jiojReSUfLo?si=MR1ERNrMR_-mVnHG

Repetition: https://youtu.be/qQCJYicmOpA?si=SRtYiJwh1t1aSfx8

Any further suggestions are welcome...

Joni Mitchell's rather lovely 'The Circle Game'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9VoLCO-d6U

Lovelier than Vixen's circles, that's for sure.

 

[Steve]

A quote that many on this forum are no doubt familiar with. Sometimes a thread presents a graphic example:

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back. - Carl Sagan
(Book: The Demon-Haunted World)

 

[MarkCorrigan]

OR the correspendent actually had a contact.

Highly unlikely given the state of the war and intelligence services at the time.

You know this is part of my field of study, right? Strategic studies AND intelligence studies are both things I did at uni as part of my degree.

According to SEARCHLIGHT moles, they did.

Evidence for this claim please.

Also even if SEARCHLIGHT moles did say this, that doesn't make it true. You know that right?

You know that we can trace the origins of Combat 18, right? That we know the players involved in the formation and what brought them together?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Hastings's The Secret War' is a good primer.
Again it's written with the benefit of post Soviet information