The Sensitive Issue of Circumcision

[jdp]

Yes. Or at the very least removes a barrier.

I've not stated any of that.

Linda

See but I would assert that the Doctors should not even bring it up. The fact that they do implies that there is some important decision to be made when in fact there really isn't. As you've pointed out for at least two decades US and Canadian doctors have said that circumcision is not really necessary to the health of boys; I think the AAP stated this as early as 1972. So at this point OBGYNs and Pedis should have struck that question from the birth charts but the didn't; It is curious to wonder why. Sure perhaps some parents would have continued to demand it but an action as simple as this would have started a stronger decline 36 years ago and might have looked more like what seems to have happened in New Zealand.

Another interesting thought that has crossed my mind is that, I believe, around the same time (or perhaps a bit earlier), it was also determined that small pox vaccinations were no longer necessary as the disease had been, for the most part, eradicated from North America. At that time, I am sure a recommendation was made that it was not necessary and they just stop vaccinating kids for small pox. I am sure there was a period of overlap where parents just asked for it but slowly Drs just stopped offering it (or rather asking if the parents wanted it) and now I don't know anyone who ever had this vaccination. Why circumcision hasn't or couldn't follow a similar path is a mystery.

 

[fls]

I cannot help you with that.

Linda

 

[truethat]

I have not insulted your child at all. I lightheartedly (see the smiley?) made a joke at your expense.

Excuse me but bringing my child into this for any reason to "lightheartedly make a joke (see the smiley!!) is lewd and vulgar and shows your level of "joking" that you'd insult a child's penis in the process? No matter how many smilies you tack on the end of it, it doesn't change what you said.

There are some on this forum. There are many more on the web. Probably not a huge percentage of the men who've been circumcised, but they still exist. And they real shame is they can do little to undo what was done to them.



IIRC, less than 0.5% of intact men elect to be circumcised for non-medical reasons. I'd say that indicates men's preference.

A few, some, probabaly not a huge percentage..... This is what you use to make your point? I do believe the OP was serious in his question and I gave him a serious answer. You are just debating for the sake of argument.

And he's going to have to get a job too. Being grown up is just no fun at all!

Do you believe infant circumcision doesn't hurt?

Getting born hurts, should we stop doing that as well? And the first part of this is a nonsense comment that shows you are ignoring the point because its valid. The pain involved in adult circumcision is definitely a deterrant from surgery. Making a joke of it doesn't make it not true. Also deflecting it with a different question doesn't make it not true.

It may not automatically retract during an erection, but it should be able to be easily retracted by hand by the age of 15.



Many women find it gross to perform oral sex on men, whether they have a foreskin or not.

An uncircumised penis need be no more "dirty" than a circumcised one. Both are a lot less "dirty" than a woman's vagina.

I am not giving MY point of view on uncut penises. I'm pointing out a reason why I as a mother worry if I've made the correct decision. You are attacking me as if I circumcized my son when I did not. The OP is asking for parents to give their opinion as to whether to circumcize or not. And quite frankly from your posts, I don't think you've ever been in the position, nor have half the people on here of being asked to make this decision on behalf of another person.

As much as you want to complain that its not right that someone else is making this call, that's the job of a parent. And its not as easy as you think it is. All the arguments on a message board don't change the fact as Litheral has pointed out that most women don't like the appearance of an UC penis.

Women who do are a minority. And while cup size might be a thing that you think is equivalent its not at all the same thing. The same thing would be like saying a woman has an extra long clitoris, ala China. If you find that gross then you are shallow and hideous.

Are you seriously suggesting that if you went to have sex with a woman and saw this, that you'd have no problem with it at all?

Go to "the horror" at the bottom of this page to find a link.

http://www.somethingawful.com/d/horrors-of-porn/night-china.php

If something is unusal for men and women, many times its viewed as "gross" or "wrong" when its perfectly natural. Invirted nipples for example are just how some women look. Really long pedulous breasts are how some other women look.

As a parent my job is not to rally the troops to stand up for the injustices of shallow people who judge people by appearances.

Rather its to see when I'm allowing MY judgement to put my children in positions that will emotionally scar them or physically hurt them. Both are equal in concern to me. Obviously it seems that protecting a child from physical harm would be the ideal but that's not always the case.

For example we don't hover over our kids when they are trying to walk. Sometimes they fall and get hurt. We don't let them get hurt too badly but we don't always prevent it because sometimes its better in the long run.

This is a case where I wonder if it would be better in the long run to have just gone ahead and circumcized. It has never presented an issue to me at all nor to my kids at all. However I do wonder if in the future it might cause my son emotional damage if women tend to treat him like its not as attractive.

So its not an easy decision either way. If I lived in Europe where the balance is more towards UC then it would be a different line of thought.

And this is a parents answer, spoken in sincerity to the OP in order to convey what happens if you don't do it, as a PARENT. Not in anyway suggesting one way is right and the other way is wrong.

 

[fls]

See but I would assert that the Doctors should not even bring it up.

I agree. This goes back to the idea of barriers that I brought up earlier.

The fact that they do implies that there is some important decision to be made when in fact there really isn't. As you've pointed out for at least two decades US and Canadian doctors have said that circumcision is not really necessary to the health of boys; I think the AAP stated this as early as 1972. So at this point OBGYNs and Pedis should have struck that question from the birth charts but the didn't; It is curious to wonder why.

Not really. It is still something that would be identified as a concern. And the trends among health care have been to remove barriers to the addressing of concerns, rather than increasing barriers.

Sure perhaps some parents would have continued to demand it but an action as simple as this would have started a stronger decline 36 years ago and might have looked more like what seems to have happened in New Zealand.

Another interesting thought that has crossed my mind is that, I believe, around the same time (or perhaps a bit earlier), it was also determined that small pox vaccinations were no longer necessary as the disease had been, for the most part, eradicated from North America. At that time, I am sure a recommendation was made that it was not necessary and they just stop vaccinating kids for small pox. I am sure there was a period of overlap where parents just asked for it but slowly Drs just stopped offering it (or rather asking if the parents wanted it) and now I don't know anyone who ever had this vaccination. Why circumcision hasn't or couldn't follow a similar path is a mystery.

It's not a mystery if some attempt is made to understand what is important to normal, everyday people who happen to be new parents, instead of assuming they are thoughtless, cruel, ogres. But it's a lot less fun.

I think that if the doctors in the US could be persuaded to actively work toward reducing the rate of circumcision, rather than generally remaining neutral, it would have an effect. But I think that it makes more sense to look at ways to decrease the requests from parents. It seems like it would be easier to persuade insurance companies and Medicaid not to pay for the service (they're always trying to get out of paying for stuff, anyway), than going at it bass-ackward and introducing a number of logistical and ethical concerns.

To go back to my analogy with the pill, some people want to reduce pre-marital, non-procreative sex by withholding information about and access to birth control, including the pill. It turns out that this is not a particularly effective way to go about it.

Linda

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Excuse me but bringing my child into this for any reason to "lightheartedly make a joke (see the smiley!!) is lewd and vulgar and shows your level of "joking" that you'd insult a child's penis in the process? No matter how many smilies you tack on the end of it, it doesn't change what you said.

I apologise if my comment offended you or your child.

A few, some, probabaly not a huge percentage..... This is what you use to make your point? I do believe the OP was serious in his question and I gave him a serious answer. You are just debating for the sake of argument.

I thought I was answering the questions you asked.

Getting born hurts, should we stop doing that as well? And the first part of this is a nonsense comment that shows you are ignoring the point because its valid. The pain involved in adult circumcision is definitely a deterrant from surgery. Making a joke of it doesn't make it not true. Also deflecting it with a different question doesn't make it not true.

Many other cosmetic surgical procedures are painful. Plenty of adults choose to have them. Your point is not valid.

I am not giving MY point of view on uncut penises. I'm pointing out a reason why I as a mother worry if I've made the correct decision. You are attacking me as if I circumcized my son when I did not. The OP is asking for parents to give their opinion as to whether to circumcize or not. And quite frankly from your posts, I don't think you've ever been in the position, nor have half the people on here of being asked to make this decision on behalf of another person.

Why did anyone ask you to make the decision?

As much as you want to complain that its not right that someone else is making this call, that's the job of a parent. And its not as easy as you think it is. All the arguments on a message board don't change the fact as Litheral has pointed out that most women don't like the appearance of an UC penis.

Litheral did not say that.

Women who do are a minority.

Evidence?

And while cup size might be a thing that you think is equivalent its not at all the same thing. The same thing would be like saying a woman has an extra long clitoris, ala China. If you find that gross then you are shallow and hideous.

Are you seriously suggesting that if you went to have sex with a woman and saw this, that you'd have no problem with it at all?

Go to "the horror" at the bottom of this page to find a link.

http://www.somethingawful.com/d/horrors-of-porn/night-china.php

Looking on the positive side there would be no excuse for a man not being able to find it.

If something is unusal for men and women, many times its viewed as "gross" or "wrong" when its perfectly natural. Invirted nipples for example are just how some women look. Really long pedulous breasts are how some other women look.

As a parent my job is not to rally the troops to stand up for the injustices of shallow people who judge people by appearances.

Rather its to see when I'm allowing MY judgement to put my children in positions that will emotionally scar them or physically hurt them. Both are equal in concern to me. Obviously it seems that protecting a child from physical harm would be the ideal but that's not always the case.

I'm pretty sure the number one neurosis of men with regards to their sex organs is SIZE, closely followed by getting a lasting erection and premature ejaculation.

For example we don't hover over our kids when they are trying to walk. Sometimes they fall and get hurt. We don't let them get hurt too badly but we don't always prevent it because sometimes its better in the long run.

This is a case where I wonder if it would be better in the long run to have just gone ahead and circumcized. It has never presented an issue to me at all nor to my kids at all. However I do wonder if in the future it might cause my son emotional damage if women tend to treat him like its not as attractive.

Do European men get laid in the US?

So its not an easy decision either way. If I lived in Europe where the balance is more towards UC then it would be a different line of thought.

And this is a parents answer, spoken in sincerity to the OP in order to convey what happens if you don't do it, as a PARENT. Not in anyway suggesting one way is right and the other way is wrong.

I appreciate your sincerity, even though I can't understand why you and other American parents think it is such a big issue.

 

[truethat]

It seems to me that you are uncircumcized and are biased but won't admit it. I know quite a few foreign men who my girlfriends have had sex with and they did comment that they thought it was gross that the guy was not circumcized.

They are not shallow people in general but they did say this. Its their opinion and their right.

You totally ignored the China question? Would you date a woman who had a clitoris like that? If not why are you so shallow?

Certainly the girl is not going to tell the guy that this is the reason she's breaking it off. Many women have sex pretty quickly into a relationship, so its not as if they are dating for months and then suddenly they find out OMG. Its usually pretty quick into the relationship. And they guy never knows this is why.

This is what I've seen, on message boards. Litheral did say that she knows she and other women who prefer it are a minority. Most women do not. And its here in America where other American parents think its a big issue because (don't strain too hard thinkin there.....) its much more common to be circumcized.

Btw I'm not worried about my son getting LAID. I'm worried about other things which I doubt you even understand because you don't strike me as a parent.

Are you a parent?

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

I think that if the doctors in the US could be persuaded to actively work toward reducing the rate of circumcision, rather than generally remaining neutral, it would have an effect. But I think that it makes more sense to look at ways to decrease the requests from parents. It seems like it would be easier to persuade insurance companies and Medicaid not to pay for the service (they're always trying to get out of paying for stuff, anyway), than going at it bass-ackward and introducing a number of logistical and ethical concerns.

<snip>

Isn't making parents have to explicitly ask and pay for their child's circumcision raising a logistical barrier?

Would a statement along the lines of:

"We do not recommend circumcision unless it is medically indicated."

be too much to ask of doctors?

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

It seems to me that you are uncircumcized and are biased but won't admit it.

I'm biased against children having bits chopped off them for non-medical reasons at the whim of their parents.

I know quite a few foreign men who my girlfriends have had sex with and they did comment that they thought it was gross that the guy was not circumcized.

They are not shallow people in general but they did say this. Its their opinion and their right.

Funny, the men told me your girlfriends' labia were disgusting.

You totally ignored the China question? Would you date a woman who had a clitoris like that?

Yes, but it would depend on her other attributes.

If not why are you so shallow?

I'm not that shallow. I do have a stutter (try stuttering in public for "emotional damage") and have seen someone I cared about die a horrible slow death, which tends to put such trivial things in perspective.

Certainly the girl is not going to tell the guy that this is the reason she's breaking it off. Many women have sex pretty quickly into a relationship, so its not as if they are dating for months and then suddenly they find out OMG. Its usually pretty quick into the relationship. And they guy never knows this is why.

Why doesn't the woman tell the man she is breaking up with him because she doesn't like the look of his penis? Is it to protect his feelings or to keep her opinion of herself as being a non-shallow individual intact?

This is what I've seen, on message boards. Litheral did say that she knows she and other women who prefer it are a minority. Most women do not. And its here in America where other American parents think its a big issue because (don't strain to hard thinkin there.....) its much more common to be circumcized.

Litheral said women who really prefer a man to have a foreskin are a minority. I.e. most women don't care that much either way.

Btw I'm not worried about my son getting LAID. I'm worried about other things which I doubt you even understand because you don't strike me as a parent.

Are you a parent?

No, I'm not a parent. Any idiot can become a parent and many frequently do. I don't think becoming a parent gives a person any special knowledge or insight which makes their opinions about the treatment of children any more valid than anyone else's.

 

[jdp]

I agree. This goes back to the idea of barriers that I brought up earlier.


Not really. It is still something that would be identified as a concern. And the trends among health care have been to remove barriers to the addressing of concerns, rather than increasing barriers.

I knew you would agree. I don't think this is an issue of removing or increasing barriers rather it addressing those concerns. For example, I read somewhere that one of the primary reasons parents in the US circumcise is that they believe it is more 'hygienic'. Rather than just grinning and nodding the physician could say, "Well that really isn't true and here is why.... more over, it isn't something really something we think should be routine anymore." I don't think even this amount of conversation is common. As Ivor's post pointed out it becomes a yes or no question with little discussion.

For example, go back to the Small Pox analogy. The Drs. determined that this vaccination was no longer required and now it has long since stopped being given. I wouldn't be surprised if initially some parents were confused about this and might have still insisted on this but over time it was completely eliminated from the schedule. If a parent had a concern the Dr would say, yes we did used to do this but now we know we don't need to so we stopped. That isn't putting up barriers; it is addressing concerns.

It's not a mystery if some attempt is made to understand what is important to normal, everyday people who happen to be new parents, instead of assuming they are thoughtless, cruel, ogres. But it's a lot less fun.

I don't think they are thoughtless or cruel, I didn't say that did I? I am sure that the vast majority of parents do what they think is best with the information they have but I also think they are for the most part working from persistent rumor and pernicious myths which are mostly exaggerations. I also don't see a concerted effort on US Docs to firmly correct those.

I think that if the doctors in the US could be persuaded to actively work toward reducing the rate of circumcision, rather than generally remaining neutral, it would have an effect. But I think that it makes more sense to look at ways to decrease the requests from parents. It seems like it would be easier to persuade insurance companies and Medicaid not to pay for the service (they're always trying to get out of paying for stuff, anyway), than going at it bass-ackward and introducing a number of logistical and ethical concerns.

I agree with what you're saying but that isn't always easy as I am sure you're aware. Getting a large group, Doctors in this case, to agree on and move in a single direction is a bit like herding cats. This has to be stepwise. We've already taken the first steps, 36 years ago. The next step would have been to strike the questions from the birth charts; you just don't bring it up and if the parents have questions answer them as outlined above. I am not saying the practice would totally stop at that point I am sure it would continue but by making parents take an affirmative step, having to ask, you make strides at reducing the demand.

In the US it seems we didn't take any of the next steps but in other countries were circumcision was common, New Zealand, Australia, and Canada, it seems they took that step and for the most part it worked. And where it didn't work, the appropriate groups pointed this out to the physicians, as in Saskatchewen. Only recently has circumcision been removed from Medicaid and currently only in 16 states. And in the states that have dropped it, some insurance companies have followed but it's a slow process.

 

[truethat]

I'm biased against children having bits chopped off them for non-medical reasons at the whim of their parents.



Funny, the men told me your girlfriends' labia were disgusting.



Yes, but it would depend on her other attributes.



I'm not that shallow. I do have a stutter (try stuttering in public for "emotional damage") and have seen someone I cared about die a horrible slow death, which tends to put such trivial things in perspective.



Why doesn't the woman tell the man she is breaking up with him because she doesn't like the look of his penis? Is it to protect his feelings or to keep her opinion of herself as being a non-shallow individual intact?



Litheral said women who really prefer a man to have a foreskin are a minority. I.e. most women don't care that much either way.



No, I'm not a parent. Any idiot can become a parent and many frequently do. I don't think becoming a parent gives a person any special knowledge or insight which makes their opinions about the treatment of children any more valid than anyone else's.

The cute qualifier "any idiot can become a parent' is quite often used by people cornered by the reality that they are talking out their ass when dispensing parenting advice to people who actually have children.

Idiots aside, in general most parents face issues in real life that are just "topic fodder" for you to cannon ball about on the internet.

Being a parent means having to deal with the actual consequences of these decisions which is why its a difficult decision to make.

You didn't mention if you were circumcized or not. And you skipped over whether you are biased because of it. I will assume since I was right about you not being a parent (very obvious in your posts) that you are uncut and irrational when discussing it. Hence the nasty comments about the women's labias. Do you think I'm just being spiteful and lying? Because obviously you are doing that?

Most women do prefer circumcized here in the states. Why does that bother you so much? And I'm curious if you are in a relationship now?


And kudos to you for not being too shallow to deal with China's clitoris but I doubt very much you'll find another man who is not simply trying to win an argument who wouldn't be bothered by it.

 

[osmosis]

So, then, I was right. You ask whether one can really appreciate having something done to them as a baby. When I say yes, you dismiss me in just exactly the way I predicted.

I never claimed, nor implied, that one cannot appreciate what was done to them as a baby. Especially when they can't remember the event itself, and have no way of knowing what (if anything) would be different about their life had it not been done to them.

You want to have your argument both ways.

Nope.

You want to claim that nobody can appreciate the experience.

Nope.

Although.. those who can remember "the experience" tend to say it was very unpleasant. And those who have experience with and without a foreskin tend to say they wish they had their foreskin back.

Yet, when someone claims he appreciates the experience, you want to dismiss those claims as biased.

And what experience is it that you appreciate? Having been circumcized, or living as a circumcized man? I doubt you can remember being circumcized, so you must appreciate the experience of living as a circumcized man. But you can't remember ever not being circumcized, and thereore can make no direct experiental comparison.

So what you really are just saying is that you appreciate your life, which is fine, although it has little bearing on this subject.

But there is absolutely no more evidence that I am the biased one than that you are.

Yes there is. Circumcision is a fundamental tenet of your religion. That is evidence of bias.

There is nothing special about my position that automatically makes my opinions worthless.

Perhaps not completely worthless, but certainly less compelling than those of a more neutral, rational person.

And there is nothing at all special about your positions that imparts any value to your opinions whatsoever.

I try to stick with facts and reason, and I believe that imparts some value to my opinions.

"An individual with first-hand evidence has little hope of doing anything other than challenging my preconceptions and biases with his actual life experience."

First hand evidence? Oh, you mean the fact that you like your life?

My life experience cancels out your life experience, so why don't we stick to the facts instead? I can go on and on about how much I like my foreskin and you can go on and on about how much you like being Jewish, but it's not getting anyone anywhere.

Please tell me that you are not so insecure in your argument that you cannot withstand evidence.

Not at all. If you ever get ahold of some, I'm more than willing to entertain it.

 

[osmosis]

Excuse me but bringing my child into this for any reason to "lightheartedly make a joke (see the smiley!!) is lewd and vulgar and shows your level of "joking" that you'd insult a child's penis in the process? No matter how many smilies you tack on the end of it, it doesn't change what you said.

Waitaminute, you're willing to mutilate your child's penis, but you take exception to someone insulting it?

(I hope he didn't hurt your child's penis' feelings!)

Get real.

 

[truethat]

Waitaminute, you're willing to mutilate your child's penis, but you take exception to someone insulting it?

(I hope he didn't hurt your child's penis' feelings!)

Get real.

Why not try reading it again. I chose not to circumcize.

I take exception to grown men using a child's penis as the butt of a joke.

Grow up.

 

[truethat]

I never claimed, nor implied, that one cannot appreciate what was done to them as a baby. Especially when they can't remember the event itself, and have no way of knowing what (if anything) would be different about their life had it not been done to them.



Nope.



Nope.

Although.. those who can remember "the experience" tend to say it was very unpleasant. And those who have experience with and without a foreskin tend to say they wish they had their foreskin back.

EVIDENCE PLEASE? I'd really like to see this because I've never heard this. Since you only use facts and evidence I'd like you to back it up.

And what experience is it that you appreciate? Having been circumcized, or living as a circumcized man? I doubt you can remember being circumcized, so you must appreciate the experience of living as a circumcized man. But you can't remember ever not being circumcized, and thereore can make no direct experiental comparison.

So what you really are just saying is that you appreciate your life, which is fine, although it has little bearing on this subject.



Yes there is. Circumcision is a fundamental tenet of your religion. That is evidence of bias.




Perhaps not completely worthless, but certainly less compelling than those of a more neutral, rational person.



I try to stick with facts and reason, and I believe that imparts some value to my opinions.



First hand evidence? Oh, you mean the fact that you like your life?

My life experience cancels out your life experience, so why don't we stick to the facts instead? I can go on and on about how much I like my foreskin and you can go on and on about how much you like being Jewish, but it's not getting anyone anywhere.



Not at all. If you ever get ahold of some, I'm more than willing to entertain it.

Why the antisemitism? Its very off putting.

 

[fls]

Isn't making parents have to explicitly ask and pay for their child's circumcision raising a logistical barrier?

Yes.

Would a statement along the lines of:

"We do not recommend circumcision unless it is medically indicated."

be too much to ask of doctors?

Obviously not.

Linda

 

[truethat]

You know the "why is it even asked" question is very weird. Many people prefer circumcision. My doctor asked because he was ready to go home and wanted to know if he'd be needed. I think a mountain is being made out of a molehill over this point.

 

[fls]

I knew you would agree. I don't think this is an issue of removing or increasing barriers rather it addressing those concerns. For example, I read somewhere that one of the primary reasons parents in the US circumcise is that they believe it is more 'hygienic'. Rather than just grinning and nodding the physician could say, "Well that really isn't true and here is why.... more over, it isn't something really something we think should be routine anymore." I don't think even this amount of conversation is common. As Ivor's post pointed out it becomes a yes or no question with little discussion.

I think you've read an awful lot into an off-hand remark.

For example, go back to the Small Pox analogy. The Drs. determined that this vaccination was no longer required and now it has long since stopped being given. I wouldn't be surprised if initially some parents were confused about this and might have still insisted on this but over time it was completely eliminated from the schedule. If a parent had a concern the Dr would say, yes we did used to do this but now we know we don't need to so we stopped. That isn't putting up barriers; it is addressing concerns.

The problem with this analogy is that the perceived benefit from the vaccination is very easily addressed. The perceived benefit from circumcision is much more difficult to address, since it's based on cultural rather than medical issues.

I don't think they are thoughtless or cruel, I didn't say that did I? I am sure that the vast majority of parents do what they think is best with the information they have but I also think they are for the most part working from persistent rumor and pernicious myths which are mostly exaggerations. I also don't see a concerted effort on US Docs to firmly correct those.

What do you base that on?

Linda

 

[six7s]

Being a parent means having to deal with the actual consequences of these decisions which is why its a difficult decision to make.

Non sequitur

Being a parent can expose you to "actual consequences"... it in no way auto-magically necessitates/facilitates any decision making

 

[Lithrael]

Litheral did say that she knows she and other women who prefer it are a minority. Most women do not. And its here in America where other American parents think its a big issue because (don't strain too hard thinkin there.....) its much more common to be circumcized.

I'm sorry, my meaning wasn't clear. Specifically I meant, women who experience uncomfortable or painful sex with circumcised men, and prefer uncircumcised men because sex with them is, de facto, more enjoyable, are a minority.

I know a few women who prefer circ'd and I know slightly fewer women who prefer uncirc'd. I also know women with no strong opinion because they don't know anything about uncirc'd. And there are indeed a lot of uncirc'd guys around in the States these days. Bit too young for me sadly.

 

[osmosis]

Why the antisemitism?

What antisemitism? Do you even know what the word means?