The Second Amendment and the "Right" to Bear Arms

[arthwollipot]

No the power does exist, and you are a hypocrite for supporting a central power to use force to make you feel safer.

That central power can only use the very means you deplore to enact such an edict, or any other edict and it has occurred over and over and over again in history and accounts for the most terrible violence this planet has ever seen.

Using force to control is wrong, it cannot be supported morally, yet here you are arguing that it should be supported for the purpose of controlling a populace that terrifies you by having the same ability you want the government to employ against citizens preemptively without regard to the individuals ability to behave responsibly.

. . and we terrify you for wanting to avoid that and for creating a system by which we allow individuals actions to determine their ability to be responsible?

No, you terrify me for assuming that force for yourself.

 

[arthwollipot]

Yeah, this is nearly a textbook example of a trolling thread -- throw out provocative statements that you knew would be sensitive and not interested in any responses because you refuse to change your mind.

On the contrary, I have read and considered every single post in this thread and others. None have been convincing. The most pro-gun posts have made me more frightened of American gun owners than I am of local criminals. The fact that gun proponents haven't given me any convincing arguments doesn't mean that I refuse to change my mind. It's that the gun owners are using terrible arguments.

Also, as has been stated, you are willing to use men with guns to prevent others from getting guns due to your irrational fear.

Have I stated that? Where have I stated that?

I know you and your ilk

My "ilk"? MY "ilk"?

claim that cops and the military get more training, but cannot explain why there are more accidental deaths by police and military than by ordinary armed citizens.

Have I stated that? Where have I stated that?

 

[arthwollipot]

You're right, there is no such power. Because I support our Constitution, and limiting the power of the federal government, and protecting the rights of EVERY citizen, you don't like my view. That's fine, I'm ok with that. I don't need your approval to exercise a right I am guaranteed under the Constitution. Lucky for me? That's amusing. Ever heard the old expression "Molan Labe"? It's kinda my new motto.

No, I haven't. What does it mean?

 

[newyorkguy]

On the contrary, I have read and considered every single post in this thread and others. None have been convincing. The most pro-gun posts have made me more frightened of American gun owners than I am of local criminals...

IMO opinion the people you're referring to no more represent the average American gun owner than you and I do. There are many responsible gun owners. Several have told me off-list they shy away from these threads precisely because of the extremists who usually move in.

People have issues, what can you say?

 

[angrysoba]

Thanks. Now you understand why I was so flabberghasted! I was just like....seriously?? Somalia? The pirate place? WTF? Cheers sir, and yes, I'll try to keep my booger picker out of the bang switch so early.....

I completely understand and I appreciate the fact that it was a simple misunderstanding. I also appreciate the retraction and it speaks well of you that you made it unequivocal.

 

[arthwollipot]

IMO opinion the people you're referring to no more represent the average American gun owner than you and I do. There are many responsible gun owners. Several have told me off-list they shy away from these threads precisely because of the extremists who usually move in.

People have issues, what can you say?

Yes, that's why I usually only lurk rather than jumping in headfirst as I did with this thread. As I may have said before, the zeal that these people display borders on the religious.

 

[triforcharity]

IMO opinion the people you're referring to no more represent the average American gun owner than you and I do. There are many responsible gun owners. Several have told me off-list they shy away from these threads precisely because of the extremists who usually move in.

People have issues, what can you say?

Ah, yes, the appeal to the "lurkers". Cool story bro. I'm an extremist and have issues because I support the constitution, and not a bunch of pu**es in Washington who cannot even pass a simple budget.....Ok, that's cool. I'll be an extremist all day long. I'll wear that title with pride.

(MODS: I edited out the p-word but the autocensor didn't.)

 

[Cylinder]

Yes, that's why I usually only lurk rather than jumping in headfirst as I did with this thread. As I may have said before, the zeal that these people display borders on the religious.

"Give me the power, and I will take your guns.

Lucky for you, there is no such power on this earth, and for that I despair."

 

[triforcharity]

No, I haven't. What does it mean?

Never mind. It's not worth the time it would take to explain it to you. Especially when you've not even addressed any questions directed to you early on in the thread. Sorry. That's called JAQing off, and it's poor form.

 

[newyorkguy]

Ah, yes, the appeal to the "lurkers". Cool story bro. I'm an extremist and have issues because I support the constitution, and not a bunch of pu**es in Washington who cannot even pass a simple budget.....Ok, that's cool. I'll be an extremist all day long. I'll wear that title with pride.

(MODS: I edited out the p-word but the autocensor didn't.)

Be careful! That would make a dandy signature.

 

[arthwollipot]

Never mind. It's not worth the time it would take to explain it to you. Especially when you've not even addressed any questions directed to you early on in the thread. Sorry. That's called JAQing off, and it's poor form.

That's okay, I can look on Wikipedia as well as anybody.

Ah, I see now. You're basically saying the same thing that Cylinder said here, but with a more classical education. So like I said before, thank you for clearly illustrating the reason for my statement that I would take your guns if I could.

 

[arthwollipot]

"Give me the power, and I will take your guns.

Lucky for you, there is no such power on this earth, and for that I despair."

Mea Culpa. Also, "tu quoque" isn't an argument.

 

[The Norseman]

Oh really? Then what did I write here then?

Of course, that post was in response to you and one that you replied to. Again, I can't understand the level of dishonesty that goes on around here.

I posted this on the very first bloody page of the thread:

I offer my apologies for not remembering all that you've posted.

I'm also going to say that you've got a lot of nerve accusing me of being dishonest. My posting history clearly demonstrates that I back up my claims and I'm quick to apologize when I'm wrong.

 

[The Norseman]

On the contrary, I have read and considered every single post in this thread and others. None have been convincing. The most pro-gun posts have made me more frightened of American gun owners than I am of local criminals. The fact that gun proponents haven't given me any convincing arguments doesn't mean that I refuse to change my mind. It's that the gun owners are using terrible arguments.

Since I've been addressing the issues in this thread, by implication you are saying that I am also using "terrible arguments".

Have I stated that? Where have I stated that?

Have I stated that? Where have I stated that?

It is not an accurate description of your stance then? What is an accurate description of your stance if I'm not correct?

 

[arthwollipot]

Since I've been addressing the issues in this thread, by implication you are saying that I am also using "terrible arguments".

Since you, along with others, have failed to convince me of your viewpoint, yes.

It is not an accurate description of your stance then? What is an accurate description of your stance if I'm not correct?

An accurate description of my stance has been posted both here and in the "How Easy" thread.

 

[The Norseman]

Since you, along with others, have failed to convince me of your viewpoint, yes.

What would convince you then?

An accurate description of my stance has been posted both here and in the "How Easy" thread.

Non-response noted.

 

[arthwollipot]

What would convince you then?

That's a very good question. What could possibly convince me that it is a good idea to allow ordinary people to walk around in public with easy and instant access to a means of quickly and easily killing another human being?

Zombie apocalypse, perhaps?

I'll have to think about this one.

 

[Belz...]

No, that does not follow unless you have some evidence you can share.

WildCat said that Rwanda wouldn't have happened if they were armed with guns instead of machetes because they would think twice about attacking people with guns.

I'm simply pointing out that this is clearly not the case in the US.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Okay, who has claimed that the US is "the most violent country in the world" (your words)?

Besides, just a hint here. If you start comparing the violent crime rate of the USA with that of Russia (or Mexico or Brazil) then it is such a "damning with faint praise" thing to do that some might suspect you of parody.

For example, in this joke "No, it's great to be in Slough, really it is... I just spent a year in Beirut!" Slough is the butt of the joke because it is believed that almost anywhere can be favourably compared to Beirut.

Just a little tip there.

The way everyone goes on about how the US is a savage hellhole, despite the fact that in the grand scheme of things, the murder rate is far lower than that of, say, "civilised" Russia.

The problems with the US are very different from Europe, as I have explained before:

To get anything resembling Australian gun laws passed in the US, you will have to start by restoring trust in the US government. Given the following issues:

- War on Drugs leading to excesses in state power
- Largest prison population on the planet
- Institutional racism causing poverty among minorities
- NSA illegal surveillance
- The skullduggery of the post-9/11 US government (not least kidnapping citizens of foreign countries and taking them to be tortured)
- Poisonous legacies of the Vietnam War and Watergate scandals.
- the political parties being at each other's throats.

You have a tall order ahead of you.

I've already listed some of the problems the US has, but I will go in-depth with some of them.

- Institutional racism towards minorities since before the US was founded has left a lot of them in inner-urban environments with rampant poverty. This forces them to turn to crime in order to make a living, and the police have severe problems policing these areas because said urban communities strongly distrust the government. You can see that today with the War on Drugs, which has led to minorities being disproportionately imprisoned.

- This leads to the US Criminal justice system. The problem is (and it also applies to other countries as well) is that it is using 1980s methodology in order to resolve issues for the 2010s. This means that former criminals are much more likely to end up back in prison, which creates a vicious cycle. Again, it is disproportionately affecting minorities, largely again due to the War on Drugs.

To explain some of the problems with the US justice system, this website is pretty useful: http://www.sentencingproject.org/template/page.cfm?id=122

- General distrust towards the government. When the Pentagon papers were published, the public believed that government knew best, even in the hysteria of the Red Scare. This revelation had led to people not trusting the government because it sent their sons to die on a fools errand and lied to them about it. It was coupled with the Watergate scandal, when Americans found out the president whom they had elected with an overwhelming majority had committed numerous crimes. This has led to Americans thinking that their government cannot be trusted, which has been arguably vindicated by the skullduggery committed during the post-9/11 (extraordinary rendition, screwing the pooch with Afghanistan/Iraq)

 

[Orphia Nay]

Guns aren't the only problem with the USA, just as the USA isn't the only country with a gun problem.

That in no way means the USA doesn't have a gun problem.