The Race Paradigm

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I don't see how that's relevant to the questions you've asked me.

What's perhaps best is this - you quote the things from me which you think are saying things you disagree with or which I need to clarify, then you tell me what you think they're saying, then you ask me whatever questions about them you want to ask. As it is, I have no idea what you're talking about, what you're asking me, or how any of it's connected to anything I've said.

 

[truethat]

You seem to be saying that Chapelle's mocking of the Korean voice is different than the mocking of the "Whitey" voice or the "black guy" voice. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, but why is it different to you.

IMO he's mocking how people are racist and using a lot of stereotypes across the board.

 

[GnaGnaMan]

No, but I am pointing out a complete and remarkable lack of correlation. If you want to eliminate the idea of race, then "white people in blackface is okay" is a bizarre place to start.

That's true but I do not know anyone in this thread who had said that. So let's just leave that strawman alone.

The OP talked about the "race paradigm" and used the taboo on dressing as someone outside "your race" as an example.

There's no reason to think that acceptance of blackface would lead to a decrease in racism, when the only US example we have of blackface being accepted predated an *increase* in racism - and it's slide into relative unacceptability correlated to a *decrease* in racism.

Not sure what you are saying here? Obviously you can't possibly believe that blackface lead to slavery so what are you saying?
If no one had blinked at the sight of Hough dressed as Suzanne Warren, would that have caused anyone to be in anyway to be more racist?

...I missed the part where the Germans dressed like Jerry Seinfeld as a form of entertainment mocking jewish people for hundreds of years...

And I missed the hundreds of years of Americans dressing as Suzanne Warren. You don't seriously believe that there isn't a history of hate-mongering jewish stereotypes in art, right?

ETA: Now, if you were wearing a yarmulke and clutching a fist full of money, saying "I'm Bernie Madoff", that's be closer....

Now we are talking. This is exactly what I am saying.
Dressing up as Seinfeld, no problem. Dressing up as anti-jewish stereotype, unacceptable.
It occurs to me that there may be some confusion here. Real, original blackface means painting the face coal-black while leaving the part around the mouth. No one is talking about that. Are we clear on that?

Let's say for a moment that the actress mentioned had not painted herself brown but instead used mannerisms and speech patterns associated with black culture. I think that, too, would have met outrage. In such a case with maybe more justification because imitation is easily perceived as mockery.

But that's not the problem in itself. The problem is the line that is drawn and reinforced with this misguided outrage. It tells everyone that you belong on one side or the other and you stay there.

There's this old line: "What do you call a black doctor?"
Any decent person will answer: "Doctor". In the ideal world, no one would do so out of decency but simply because nothing else comes to mind.
When someone dresses up as Seinfeld, I think Seinfeld is all that comes to mind for the average person. Any details about Seinfeld's descent or even cultural identity won't even reach consciousness.

I think this page from urban dictionary could serve as another example. Is that just the normal ribbing faced by any visible sub-culture like goths/emos?

 

[I Ratant]

This is precisely what I'd hope you'd point out, because in a sense YES this is the answer.

But first of all it's a comedian mocking racism, if he was sitting at a dinner and mocking someone outside that context it would be a LOT different, as we saw from Rosie O'Donnell's "ching chong" backlash.


But to your point. YES. Exactly. Take a second to consider what I mean here though, and I'd love if Mumbles can give his opinion on what I'm going to say.

The unconscious racism is a problem because people are unaware that they are doing it, but everyone is racist especially here in the US. Everyone judges races by stereotypes and even if a person doesn't fit into the stereotype, there's still something in the back of our minds.

The difference between "white racism" where people stereotype white people and "black racism" is extreme.

Ex. For me I used to get really frustrated as a lily white blonde haired blue eyed chick, how most black people I met used to tell me how much easier my life was than theirs. I felt it was disrespectful and presumed way too much and it pissed me off.

But a black woman's experiences with racism is going to be much more severe. IOW Not being able to get a job, being treated like a shoplifter on a regular basis, etc etc. It's got a much harsher impact on a persons self image in life when these "head under the water" versions of racism impact your everyday life.

Years ago I sounded a lot like you did but I had a wake up call (a few) that changed my perspective.

I took a job at Housing Works here in NYC upper east side on 71rst Street. And the manager there was basically trying to get an assistant manager who wanted to help him steal. I figured out pretty quickly that he was stealing from the register every day and having me sign off on it as someone else's mistake. Since it was a Thrift Store there were major problems with tracking inventory because it was mostly walk in donations that were resold. He had been through 3 assistant managers in a year. That should have been a red flag but I was young and didn't pay it attention.

I was a single mother with two small kids. The woman who he fired before me was a single mother with two small kids, but she was black. I lasted 3 months and wound up getting fired (but not before I got him fired as well by documenting his theft and turning him in) When I got fired I walked around the corner to Lexington Avenue and within a few hours I had gotten another job as a waitress.

I ran into the black woman who had gotten fired before me and she had not been able to get a job since she lost her job. I knew the restaurant I was working in had two shift openings and she was experienced, beautiful and intelligent. I was excited to help her and told her to come down for the job. As I was setting up she walked in and the manager told her that there were no openings. We had agreed before she came in not to say we knew each other because we figured that they might not want two friends working together. So she came in all ready to interview and the manager there said there were no openings. When she offered to leave her resume he refused to take it, saying that it was a waste of her time.

Obviously when she left I went up to see what had happened and he flat out told me he would never hire a black waitress because "they're lazy, they don't know how build a check, and the customers up here don't like them."

I eventually quit but it dawned on me at that moment, what the difference was in being a black woman and being a white woman even in NYC a really diverse place. The fact that I as a single mother could instantly get a job and that this woman couldn't and was struggling for months, based solely on her race was scary.

Another perspective? I worked in real estate renting apartments here in Brooklyn for several years. I don't think I rented to a single black person. The landlords would flat out tell me "No African Americans" and one time I had a well spoken black man who worked at the UN stand there as the landlord told me he had "lost the keys to the apartment" and wouldn't show it to him. I flipped on the landlord and we got there and man knew the deal and basically told me not to waste his time because he knew the man wouldn't rent it to him. But I had to show it anyway because I could have lost my licence.

These are not "jokes" these are direct impacts on the very basics of living.


Racism is everywhere.

IMO by seeing it and talking about it and pushing it forward, we not only validate the experiences of the black community but we also start knocking over the subtle racism and the problems. I should have turned that landlord in and the restaurant owner in but I had run out of energy at that point. So instead I decided to be more mindful of how I was racist in my own life.

I will paste a story below that I have shared elsewhere.




That's the problem with getting defensive about accusations of racism. If you haven't really really really looked at your own actions in life, it's too easy to decide that the simple solution is to get over it.

The difference between Chapelle's joke and Julianne Hough dressing up in black face is that his was a thoughtful decisive real speech. Hers was a careless thoughtless action. She obviously didn't mean it to be racist, but that's the problem with unconscious racism.


Sorry so long

.
Not a problem.
Most of us don't see the nitty-gritty at this level.

 

[I Ratant]

'the more fortunate' who are they and why are they 'fortunate'?

.
Bread winners. Those folks with jobs. Those folks with jobs that escalate their financial stability with wise use of their available resources.
Hanging around waiting for some social program to feed, house and clothe one is not "fortunate".

 

[GnaGnaMan]

I think it's pretty clear that the broad disagreement about segregation was prima facie evidence that it was not a social rule. It was oppression.

Law and manners are inseparable. Take obscenity laws for example.
As you surely know lynchings of blacks were common before the relative success of the civil rights movement. The law called this murder but juries refused to convict if the guilty was even tried. That wasn't the evil government forcing people against their better nature. That was just society.

I'm not comparing Hough to Parks, of course. Parks risked her life for justice. Hough simply lacked awareness.
The point is that what matters is that sometimes people are offended when others do the right thing. The first "interracial" couples" caused offense, even if perhaps not in all places. The point is that "manners" does not make for a moral argument.

This is where I'm going: if you can't distinguish between manners and atrocity, there may not be a way to help you figure things out, and you may be one of those people who are deficient in this regard.

I am quite able to see the difference. I am also quite able to see your passive aggressive attacks for what they are. I just chose to ignore them. If you want to insult people, do it. Don't get medical about it, that just makes you look bigoted.

 

[GnaGnaMan]

Racism exists right this very second and happens all the time. You can scroll through this thread and see the unconscious description of it. Blatant racism is somewhat easier to handle in these discussions because people can see the paradigm. But unconscious racism is a bigger part of the problem. And if you aren't willing to admit that you perpetuate racism it will never go away.

Can you point out some examples of unconscious racism? I see the obvious ones but I'm not sure I get what you mean.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

You seem to be saying that Chapelle's mocking of the Korean voice is different than the mocking of the "Whitey" voice or the "black guy" voice. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, but why is it different to you.

IMO he's mocking how people are racist and using a lot of stereotypes across the board.

In the sketch he's playing 3 people, all of whom he's calling racist. He's saying racist things in character in order to highlight unconscious prejudices and the issue that there is more racism around than there would be if we didn't live in a society which had rules of etiquette. In order to play these characters, Chapelle himself is putting on voices. It's not the characters he's playing who are putting on those voices, it's Chapelle.

As to why the Korean voice is different, well, firstly the black voice is Chapelle's ordinary voice. So he's not putting anything on there.

Now, the caricature of the East Asian voice that he's using is the same voice that's been used by people who have oppressed East Asians in the West. The caricature of the white voice he's putting on hasn't been part of oppressing white people in the West.

I don't want to make too huge a deal out of this, so this following sentence is going to make it seem like I'm blowing it up more than I am due to the language I'm using, but when he's using that voice for the Korean he's using the tools of oppression that have been used for years against East Asians in the West. He's not mocking people who put on "ah so" East Asian voices, he's being a person who puts on an "ah so" East Asian voice.

Is it a huge deal in the grand scheme of things? No. But it is a very, very small contribution towards keeping the minority of East Asians in a position where they remain with a disproportionately small amount of power in Western society. It's not fighting against prejudice or highlighting prejudice, it's perpetuating it.

And I think that's a shame from an intelligent performer who often addresses prejudice like Chapelle does, and it undermines the message that he's attempting to convey somewhat.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

I don't want to make too huge a deal out of this, so this following sentence is going to make it seem like I'm blowing it up more than I am due to the language I'm using, but when he's using that voice for the Korean he's using the tools of oppression that have been used for years against East Asians in the West. He's not mocking people who put on "ah so" East Asian voices, he's being a person who puts on an "ah so" East Asian voice.

I do think you're making too big a deal out of this, but also think you're right in that Chapelle was using a stereotypical portrayal of how asians talk. Of course, to we native speakers, they do speak funny, or have an accent. Why wouldn't they? I'm sure my Chinese and Thai speaking sounds a bit funny as well. Perfect fodder for a comedian!

Also, I don't have any video clips, but I recently saw Tony Rock live. He did a section on racism that, IMO, was much funnier than Dave Chapelle's.

 

[truethat]

Can you point out some examples of unconscious racism? I see the obvious ones but I'm not sure I get what you mean.

Well let's see. There are a few that have kind of gotten turned on their head because people realize what it could seem like unconsciously and that's an interesting place to start, if you aren't confused.

Ex. a black woman comes up to you and gets in your face and your mind goes to "oh god she's gone ghetto on my ass" Nowadays that's actually a bit of humor because most people realize the unconscious racism that led to that thinking being pushed in the future. And so it gets overturned.

But some that people might not realize. Let's use an Arab one for example.

When the Boston Marathon happened a young Arabic boy was splashed across the newspapers as being the suspect and it was simply the inherent knee jerk reaction that an Arab did it.

Subtle unconscious racism towards blacks that I see.

Mumble's example of not getting picked up for a cab would be blatant racism.

Unconscious racism would be the cognitive dissonance in the mind saying "Well where were you going? Because if you were going towards a bad part of town I can see them not picking you up." or "Well how were you dressed, did you look thuggish." These things would not register in a white person's world.

Unconscious racism would be little things you sometimes you catch yourself doing, if you are conscientious about it.

some examples have been shared in another thread. But I'll make up some examples here if you like.

One is that black people don't have money. Many of them are loaded but people still think of them as "poor blacks." So scruffy looking white dude walking around a store is a hipster. Scruffy looking black dude walking around a store is a shoplifter.

Another is academic merit. Like Mumbles I've had a few friends accused of Affirmative Action rather than academic merit.

Unconscious racism A black girl is telling you that she got a scholarship to go to a college and you subconsciously just assume it's because of poverty, not an academic merit scholarship. Same thing with a black athlete, it's only the 'athletics" that seem to register.

Unconscious racism, well here's an example I've used in my classes

You have a young man and he's hanging out with his friends and they are partying and having fun and they decide to go drive to another friends house, all pile in the car and the driver is drunk and they are pulled over.

If it's white college student it seems like the frat boys got a little out of control and why ruin his entire future for a momentary lapse in judgment.

If it's black inner city kid, it's the 'gang' was breaking the law and he's a menace to society. He's up to no good, he's only going to come to more trouble, let's nip it in the bud by coming down hard.

Unconscious racism is not always intended to be racist, but when the class line traverses closely with race lines, it's easy to slip into racism.

Another example you might see is when black people are rewarded for acting.

Halle Berry won the Oscar for playing a drug addict
Denzel the same, he's got a large body of work but the one that got him the Oscar was the one where he played a corrupt thug drug addict cop.
Sidney Poitier won for the Lilies of the Field "the noble savage" type role.
Whoopie Goldberg for playing a crazy black lady
Monique for playing a crack head abusive mother
Octavia Spenser for playing a maid
Hattie McDaniel for playing a maid

I minored in African American literature in my undergrad and my Professor for three classes once pointed out to me that blacks in America are "richly rewarded" when they "play the role" that white Americans are most comfortable seeing.

Athletes, rap stars and the above roles. She said this years before Halle and the others won and I was surprised how spot on she was.


I'll try to think of more. I'm a bit distracted at the moment. So apologies for the sloppiness.

 

[truethat]

In the sketch he's playing 3 people, all of whom he's calling racist. He's saying racist things in character in order to highlight unconscious prejudices and the issue that there is more racism around than there would be if we didn't live in a society which had rules of etiquette. In order to play these characters, Chapelle himself is putting on voices. It's not the characters he's playing who are putting on those voices, it's Chapelle.

As to why the Korean voice is different, well, firstly the black voice is Chapelle's ordinary voice. So he's not putting anything on there.


.

You are out of your mind if you don't think he's putting on a "black voice" can't you HEAR him talking normally? He doesn't talk like that.

He's mocking all the voices and he's mocking all the stereotypes, the fact that you don't hear the difference in his 'black voice" and his regular voice is weird to me. He changes it up again when he does the black Santa voice at the end.


This is not to you but an in general comment. I love how Louis CK explains racism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH2S01I5b5Y

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I do think you're making too big a deal out of this[...]

I made a one-sentence comment. Everything else has been in response to direct questioning.

You are out of your mind if you don't think he's putting on a "black voice" can't you HEAR him talking normally? He doesn't talk like that.

He's mocking all the voices and he's mocking all the stereotypes, the fact that you don't hear the difference in his 'black voice" and his regular voice is weird to me. He changes it up again when he does the black Santa voice at the end.

Perhaps I'm misremembering. I've not slept in a couple of days so my memory's not functioning as well as it should.

So, I'll accept that you're right. Now, can you not see a difference in someone using a stereotype of their own race and using a stereotype of someone else's race? The fact that he's a black man doing an impression of a black man puts it in a different context to a black man doing an impression of an East Asian man.

And, really, after spending so much time coming after me over my comments that's the only part of my post you've got anything to say about?

 

[Vortigern99]

[snip response to other member]Again I'm fine with the theory of erasing "race" from US thinking. But if that's the aim, why is the OP about white people in blackface?

The OP isn't "about white people in blackface". This thread concerns the scientific consensus that race is an inaccurate system of classification, and the OP expounds on a proposal to society that we make an effort to see so-called racial distinctions as mere physical traits, which do not automatically affiliate any individual with a group, a set of behaviors or an ideology. I gave -- as one example of unnecessary and divisive racial hypersensitivity -- the Hough incident in which, in dressing as a fictional character for whom she expressed admiration, Hough applied a light mocha-colored pigmentation to her skin.

I also mentioned Morgan Freeman's view, which matches my own suggestion to society, but this hasn't got nearly the response here that my mentioning the Hough event has done.

I've observed (and please point out where you disagree) that the view that individuals deemed "white" (whatever that is, exactly) dressing up as individuals deemed "black" constitutes a social taboo -- punishable by public censure and ridicule -- seems to be based on the following syllogism:

1. Historically, whites wearing blackface oppressed and ridiculed blacks.
2. Today, any white wearing blackface invokes that history, regardless of the wearer's intentions or motives.
3. Therefore, no whites may wear blackface.

I agree with #1, with the minor proviso that a small number of blackface performers actually promoted abolition prior to the Civil War.

In this instance, I disagree with #2 on the basis of motive and on the use of the term "blackface". To the latter point, Minstrel performers wore black shoeshine in a cartoonish caricature of persons of African descent. Blackface actors used burnt cork, greasepaint or shoe polish to blacken their skin and exaggerate their lips. Julianne Hough, on the other hand, applied a tone lighter than the pigmentation of the character (played by Uzo Aduba), did not otherwise exaggerate her facial features or blacken her hair. Can this mild mocha make-up accurately be called "blackface", insofar as it doesn't resemble or even approximate the historical materials, is not especially dark and, indeed, is not even actually black?

To the former point, Hough's motives were not to ridicule or oppress:

"I am a huge fan of the show Orange is the New black, actress Uzo Aduba, and the character she has created. It certainly was never my intention to be disrespectful or demeaning to anyone in any way. I realize my costume hurt and offended people and I truly apologize." -- Julianne Hough​

So on that basis, though I'm aware my view is unpopular, I defend Hough's right to cos-play as a character whose skin happens to be darker than her own. Her perceived "white"-ness doesn't automatically affiliate her with the long-dead "whites" who performed in Minstrel shows. No oppression or ridicule intended + no use of materials or visual features associated with historical blackface = no need to censure the wearer.

Superficial traits are just that: physical and superficial. Meaningless apart from surface aesthetics and possible clues to one's ancestral geography. We're all different and we're all the same. Let's dress up like each other and have fun with it if we want to.

 

[truethat]

Hough gets no pass from me. Only a moron in this day and age doesn't realize that putting on blackface couldn't potentially be a disaster. I can't believe that NO ONE told her that wasn't a good idea.



I just found out that what I'm trying to explain as "unconscious racism" has an official term I've never heard before.

"Microaggressions" Cool huh?

Here's a link and some examples:

Microaggressions are the everyday verbal, nonverbal, and environmental slights, snubs, or insults, whether intentional or unintentional, which communicate hostile, derogatory, or negative messages to target persons based solely upon their marginalized group membership. In many cases, these hidden messages may invalidate the group identity or experiential reality of target persons, demean them on a personal or group level, communicate they are lesser human beings, suggest they do not belong with the majority group, threaten and intimidate, or relegate them to inferior status and treatment.


What Do Microaggressions Look Like?

While microaggressions are generally discussed from the perspective of race and racism any marginalized group in our society may become targets: people of color, women, LGBT persons, those with disabilities, religious minorities, and so on. Some sample microaggressions and their hidden meanings are given below.

Racial Microaggressions:
• A White man or woman clutches their purse or checks their wallet as a Black or Latino man approaches or passes them. (Hidden message: You and your group are criminals.).
• An Asian American, born and raised in the United States, is complimented for speaking "good English." (Hidden message: You are not a true American. You are a perpetual foreigner in your own country.)
• A Black couple is seated at a table in the restaurant next to the kitchen despite there being other empty and more desirable tables located at the front. (Hidden message: You are a second-class citizen and undeserving of first-class treatment.)

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...y-life/201011/microaggressions-more-just-race


here's another article

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...1010/racial-microaggressions-in-everyday-life

The Common Experience of Racial Microaggressions

Such incidents have become a common-place experience for many people of color because they seem to occur constantly in our daily lives.

When a White couple (man and women) passes a Black man on the sidewalk, the woman automatically clutches her purse more tightly, while the White man checks for his wallet in the back pocket. (Hidden Message: Blacks are prone to crime and up to no good.)

A third generation Asian American is complimented by a taxi cab driver for speaking such good English. (Hidden Message: Asian Americans are perceived as perpetual aliens in their own country and not "real Americans.")

Police stop a Latino male driver for no apparent reason but to subtly check his driver's license to determine immigration status. (Hidden message: Latinas/os are illegal aliens.)

American Indian students at the University of Illinois see Native American symbols and mascots - exemplified by Chief Illiniwek dancing and whooping fiercely during football games. (Hidden Message: American Indians are savages, blood-thirsty and their culture and traditions are demeaned.)

In our 8-year research at Teachers College, Columbia University, we have found that these racial microaggressions may on the surface, appear like a compliment or seem quite innocent and harmless, but nevertheless, they contain what we call demeaning meta-communications or hidden messages.

 

[angrysoba]

I do think you're making too big a deal out of this, but also think you're right in that Chapelle was using a stereotypical portrayal of how asians talk. Of course, to we native speakers, they do speak funny, or have an accent. Why wouldn't they? I'm sure my Chinese and Thai speaking sounds a bit funny as well. Perfect fodder for a comedian!

Also, I don't have any video clips, but I recently saw Tony Rock live. He did a section on racism that, IMO, was much funnier than Dave Chapelle's.

I don't think Squeegee Beckenheim is making too big a deal of it. Rather he or she has just been trying for some time now to clarify a very simple point that he or she made not long ago which has been bizarrely misinterpreted despite it originally being a very obvious and very clear point.

 

[truethat]

We get it angrysoba, everytime I write something you have to make a comment on it. LOL No the fact that SB stated that Chappelle did not use a "black voice" for the "black character" is part of the distinction here that is causing the confusion.

If you listen to Chappelle talking in his regular voice and then listen to how he speaks in the "black guy" voice, he CLEARLY puts on an accent as well. Chappelle has a southern accent normally. Not a "black accent." Dismissing that is what caused the confusion.

Listen to it again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8fkv1UQcPg


You can see him in an interview here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8vCr2tZa_8

 

[Vortigern99]

Snipped just for brevity. I thought the "poetic language" very closely matched what the problem is; even though I concede it is poetic, it's a good metaphor. I used the metaphor because often people are so bothered by race conversations that they can't step back and look at it another way. So that's why I used the example.

Okay, so by "they sit there waist deep in the water shifting waves... you need to let it flood into your ears" you appear to have meant that all people everywhere should/must accept that there is a racist component to human psychology and behavior. That racism is intrinsic to humanity. Do I have that about right?

My response is that it depends on what you mean by "racist" in this context. There is a famous (perhaps infamous) story from the set of Planet of the Apes (1967) in which Kim Hunter (the actress who played Zira the chimpanzee scientist) found herself making the choice to sit with other "chimp" actors at lunchtime; and that even though she had been close friends with Maurice Evans (Dr. Zaius the orangutan scientist) she hardly spoke a word to him during the production, and never sat with him at mealtimes. (Hunter tells the story better than I do, having lived it herself). In short, she observed people breaking into camps based on their visual identities.

Based on that and other stories, plus additional compelling observations I've made in my 40+ years on this planet, I will agree without hesitation that racialism is intrinsic to humanity: that is, the affiliation of individuals with similar physical traits. "Birds of a feather" and all that.

But racism is something different. A racist person seeks to oppress and ridicule, to belittle and dominate, to control and enact violence upon, members of a group deemed to be inferior. On the basis of that very important distinction, I observe that human beings are naturally racialists, but only those enculturated to hate are racists.

As for your first comments, this is exactly what the problem is when it comes to "black" "white' (and of course other races.) That is, that non blacks do not admit that they are racist. And also blacks don't admit that they are racist towards their own community.

Racism exists right this very second and happens all the time. You can scroll through this thread and see the unconscious description of it. Blatant racism is somewhat easier to handle in these discussions because people can see the paradigm. But unconscious racism is a bigger part of the problem. And if you aren't willing to admit that you perpetuate racism it will never go away.

Take a second and read your own post in full and see if you can see any unconscious racism in there. I'll come back later and tell you what I see.

I've never denied that "Racism exists right this very second and happens all the time". Why you feel compelled to point this out remains an open question, when in the very post to which you're responding I wrote:

[R]acism exists and is a major problem. I'm proposing we leave it behind, starting with the realization that race itself does not exist in any definite or definable or quantifiable or measurable or significant sense, and a recognition that physical traits do not affiliate one with some larger group.​

Can I be any clearer on this point? Your efforts at instruction, as well-meaning as they are, are unnecessary with me on this point. Racism exists; I'm trying to work -- starting right here and right now -- to end it.

And if you aren't willing to admit that you perpetuate racism it will never go away.

You're mistaken. I for one no longer perpetuate racism, because I now recognize that race itself does not exist. I have no desire, whether innate or learned, to oppress, ridicule, belittle, commit violence toward, dominate, control or treat as inferior any individual based on their perceived affiliation with some group owing to physically observable traits. I just don't.

In closing, I'll turn your "if/then" statement into one I feel is more accurate and more progressive:

If you're not willing to concede that race itself does not exist, racism will never go away.

 

[truethat]

I totally get what you are saying but that's my entire point. For you to say that you do not perpetuate racism is total denial. You may not "intend" to perpetuate racism but you do, everyone does. That's why IMO the better approach is to say "we're all racist" and pay attention to the things we do and try to push the unconscious into the conscious in order to eradicate it.

But that's only part of the problem. The bigger part is that many people are very racist. So basically your answer that 'you don't do it" is that you want to pretend it doesn't exist for black people just because you don't do it.

When black people try to point out racism there's a huge backlash against them for doing so. Look at Obama's example with his grandmother.

 

[Vortigern99]

And to tell the truth, that's my issue with the OP, for several reason. First and most obvious, you can suggest that *we* give it up, but watch me try to catch a cab. Even if I do accept that you truly wish to move beyond it and harbor no prejudice in life (and I accept that for nobody - including myself), all this means is that you aren't the problem. You giving up on the concept earns nothing.

Now, let's talk about a few other people. Fox News, referred to the rapper Common, who's first major hit was an anti-violence diatribe, as a "thug" and a "gangsta", and they're the top rated news channel, and thus the most profitable. Radio pundit Rush Limbaugh refers to middle class tax cuts as "forced reparations" when the first black president of the US proposes them. He's wildly rich, in part because of this. Bill O'Reilly yells that "the black community" does nothing about "black-on-black crime", spurns multiple offers to go into a black neighborhood to see what was done, and enjoys high ratings. Donald Trump shouted that the first black President wasn't born in the US, that his admissions to college were forged, and that he rose above himself due to affirmative action. And his media platform has *increased* because of it. And he was briefly the frontrunner for the GOP nomination to the US presidency.

In other words, the first problem you have, is that quite a few people (and my list was by no means exhaustive) find bigotry to be *profitable*. In other words, I think that, say, Limbaugh, says what he says because he's a hustler, and he knows full well that screeching about black people taking "your" money or beating "your" kids, will put money in his pocket?

Second, let's look to the audience. Yes, they're willing to swallow a bunch of malarkey. But one thing I've noted on this site about bigotry, is that it's often incoherent. As examples, we're supposed to think that we guys are logical and in control of our emotions, while women are hysterical and wild. Unless she wears a short skirt, in which case she is coldly driving us guys into a wild state of lust, this making anything we do her own fault. That clearly makes no real sense. Similarly, we hear, for example, that black people absolutely hate work and love being on welfare and food stamps, and if they have a decent job, then they can't deserve it and it's because of AA, and it's time to work to take that person down!

So...how are you going to fight that? You're dealing with a thorough, loud insistence that people of another race *must* be wrong and unacceptable, no matter what they're doing.

Third, well, how do you get past me? And really, I'm you're first obstacle. How do you convince me to just "give up" my own blackness? I grew up in a ghetto in the Crack Era, that was specifically set aside from black families by banks. I was beaten, robbed, sure. I also had quite a few opportunities due to luck. So I've been able to shrug off the folks who insist that I'm "Affirmative Action" after I get a 4.0, that I got where I am because of my skin color. I shrugged off teachers that threatened to kick me out of high-achieving classes because of my skin color, or who tried to get me expelled because of it. Or cops who tacked me and accused me of some absurd crime. Or people who called me a threat because I was just *around* them when they had an accident! or when They mistook a joke for a vicious threat. And I have a MS from a prestigious university. And I'm very happy, and proud of it. I'm proud of my mom who always had my back, I'm proud for my grandfather who raised my but died shortly before I graduated high school.

So...how do you expect me to give that up? To just forget about the roadblocks people threw in front of me, due to my skin color, that I overcame? I don't mean to trivialize anything you've been through, but in my view, I've face unfair skepticism for my entire life because of my skin color, and I've won every fight. I won't say that this is normal, but it's a part f my identity, and because of it, I hate people saying things to me like "I don't think of you as black".

All I can think is "Okay, so what would you do if you did?"

But getting back to it, what about those of us whose lives were shaped by fighting bigotry, and still are, and were molded into it?

This is a remarkable post and deserves to be re-quoted on this new page while I ponder its several points, questions and challenges. For now, thank you for presenting so effective a counter-argument to my proposal.If I expect to gain any traction with my campaign, I need to be certain that my reasoning is sound and that my ideology is realistic. I'll try to respond soon.

 

[Vortigern99]

I totally get what you are saying but that's my entire point. For you to say that you do not perpetuate racism is total denial. You may not "intend" to perpetuate racism but you do, everyone does. That's why IMO the better approach is to say "we're all racist" and pay attention to the things we do and try to push the unconscious into the conscious in order to eradicate it.

You cannot possible know this. Whereas I -- for one -- recognize that race is a false ideology, I cannot act or think in any way that derives from racialism -- the mere recognition of race as a valid concept -- much less from racism -- the desire to oppress or treat as inferior a member of a hated group. I don't acknowledge such groupings as valid, so I cannot and do not act from impulses associated with that line of thinking.

But that's only part of the problem. The bigger part is that many people are very racist. So basically your answer that 'you don't do it" is that you want to pretend it doesn't exist for black people just because you don't do it.
When black people try to point out racism there's a huge backlash against them for doing so. Look at Obama's example with his grandmother.

I don't want to pretend any such thing; you're now mischaracterizing me because you don't appear to understand my premise. You've crafted a simplistic straw man -- "Just don't do it" -- whereas my actual proposal is that we begin to work towards weeding out the recognition of race as a valid concept from our enculuration process. Teach your kids that race does not exist. Tell your neighbors race does not exist. Make it an internet meme. Get the word out there. Shout it from rooftops, paint it on murals. Start a national dialogue about it. Fly it on a flag. In time, under this new paradigm, the old idea of race will fall away, and with it racism.