The Race Paradigm

[GnaGnaMan]

I'm pretty sure science has verified there is such a thing as midgets, but going out for hollowe'en "as a midget because it's hilarious" shows a profound lack of social competence.

My feeling is that the general theme of this thread is something I see a lot in Skeptical social events:

"I don't understand all these social rules and appear to lack what is called common sense. I've decided that this means I'm superior - Wake Up Sheeple!"

There are several contributors (sometimes a combination). I have sorted them in order of most common in my experience:

1. lack of experience in social situations due to introvertive personality
2. lack of experience in social situations due to life circumstances
3. high-functioning on autism spectrum
4. narcissism
5. low intelligence

[Duncan J. Watts] recent book on common sense - [Everything Is Obvious] - is worth a read. The relevant content is that he has done a great deal of research into why discussions about common sense (like this thread) are difficult and perhaps even futile - some people have it and some people don't. Those who don't have common sense need to be spoonfed manners, and are often frustrated by the complexity and perception of dependence on others to interpret what appear to be arbitrary rules.

How would you classify Rosa Parks and others like her? I mean, she did cause a lot of offense and it's all about not causing offense and following social rules, right?
What advice would you have given to Obama's parents before marrying?

 

[Mumbles]

Who said anything about a black perp?

And that's the joke. The young white woman victim is most likely to earn the death penalty, *regardless* of the race of the perpetrator (which actually has only a minor effect on the statistics - and never mind that the overwhelming majority of white women who are murdered, are killed by other white people).

 

[Mumbles]

How would you classify Rosa Parks and others like her? I mean, she did cause a lot of offense and it's all about not causing offense and following social rules, right?

Why would anyone consider Rosa Parks refusing to give up a seat for a white guy in a state that legally, rigidly maintained the peon status of all black people, based entirely on their being black (which I assume is what you're referring to) to some corny halloween costume in a society that...um, doesn't really do much of anything against white people, outside of a relatively small number of college applications?

Again I'm fine with the theory of erasing "race" from US thinking. But if that's the aim, why is the OP about white people in blackface?

What advice would you have given to Obama's parents before marrying?

"Make sure that guy gets a divorce from his last wife first."

 

[Mumbles]

State-sponsored terrorism was "popular" in the former slave holding US states and in South Africa. Blackface was also popular in other places such as the Uk, at least.
Are you seriously suggesting some sort of causal link?

No, but I am pointing out a complete and remarkable lack of correlation. If you want to eliminate the idea of race, then "white people in blackface is okay" is a bizarre place to start. There's no reason to think that acceptance of blackface would lead to a decrease in racism, when the only US example we have of blackface being accepted predated an *increase* in racism - and it's slide into relative unacceptability correlated to a *decrease* in racism.

 

[Mumbles]

That would work better if the argument was that the confederate flag shouldn't cause offense.

Would it be anti-semitic to dress up as Jerry Seinfeld? What if a german does it?

...I missed the part where the Germans dressed like Jerry Seinfeld as a form of entertainment mocking jewish people for hundreds of years...

ETA: Now, if you were wearing a yarmulke and clutching a fist full of money, saying "I'm Bernie Madoff", that's be closer....

 

[blutoski]

How would you classify Rosa Parks and others like her? I mean, she did cause a lot of offense and it's all about not causing offense and following social rules, right?

I think it's pretty clear that the broad disagreement about segregation was prima facie evidence that it was not a social rule. It was oppression.

This is where I'm going: if you can't distinguish between manners and atrocity, there may not be a way to help you figure things out, and you may be one of those people who are deficient in this regard.

Some people can't sing, some people can't do math, some people don't "get" how to interact with others. It's part of human diversity as well, but something that's hard to accept and there's not a lot of support for them. Only recently has there been interest in finding ways to help those identified with spectrum disorder integrate.

 

[blutoski]

No, but I am pointing out a complete and remarkable lack of correlation. If you want to eliminate the idea of race, then "white people in blackface is okay" is a bizarre place to start. There's no reason to think that acceptance of blackface would lead to a decrease in racism, when the only US example we have of blackface being accepted predated an *increase* in racism - and it's slide into relative unacceptability correlated to a *decrease* in racism.

It's also about optics and context, which is why some people struggle. I think the original example was not actual blackface, but going out for hallowe'en as Treyvon Martin with makeup to darken the skin, and a black curly wig.

I had a red-haired freckle-faced neighbour's kid go out as Princess Mulan years ago, and she wore makeup to darken her skin and cover her freckles, and a long black wig. I don't see a problem. She wasn't making light of a racially divisive human tragedy.

I can't for the life of me right now think of a scenario where a person would go full blackface (white around the eyes and mouth) and not be turning one of the darkest aspects of American history into a gag. If an exception comes up (filming a documentary?) I would probably be OK with it.

 

[truethat]

I appreciate your efforts at instructing me, as the OP, with your hard-earned wisdom (that's not sarcasm -- I've read and respected many of your past posts). But as I read through the above trying to find ways that it applies to me -- any of it -- so that I can respond, either in agreement or rebuttal, I discover that none of it pertains to me.

In your post above is also a vagueness in the metaphors ("they sit there waist deep in the water shifting waves... you need to let it flood into your ears.....") which I find impenetrable. Why not say precisely what you mean instead of using poetic language to evoke emotions?

Snipped just for brevity. I thought the "poetic language" very closely matched what the problem is; even though I concede it is poetic, it's a good metaphor. I used the metaphor because often people are so bothered by race conversations that they can't step back and look at it another way. So that's why I used the example.

As for your first comments, this is exactly what the problem is when it comes to "black" "white' (and of course other races.) That is, that non blacks do not admit that they are racist. And also blacks don't admit that they are racist towards their own community.

Racism exists right this very second and happens all the time. You can scroll through this thread and see the unconscious description of it. Blatant racism is somewhat easier to handle in these discussions because people can see the paradigm. But unconscious racism is a bigger part of the problem. And if you aren't willing to admit that you perpetuate racism it will never go away.

Take a second and read your own post in full and see if you can see any unconscious racism in there. I'll come back later and tell you what I see.

Here's a clip from Dave Chappelle that might help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8fkv1UQcPg

 

[Mumbles]

It's also about optics and context, which is why some people struggle. I think the original example was not actual blackface, but going out for hallowe'en as Treyvon Martin with makeup to darken the skin, and a black curly wig.

Well, no. If you do a google image search for "Trayvon Martin blackface", I think you'll find a few of those to be...far more regrettable than the "girl as Crazy Eyes character" one that was referenced in the OP. But there's a couple of other elements to that one. First, the orange jumpsuit, which is pretty recognizable as prison garb. And second, um, not too many people have actually seen Orange is the New Black. There's two stereotypes in play there.

I do agree, though, that there is a bit of "I don't get it, so I can ignore it" at work here. And actually, I don't see why it's even worth discussing, since the offending woman has apologized and moved on.

I had a red-haired freckle-faced neighbour's kid go out as Princess Mulan years ago, and she wore makeup to darken her skin and cover her freckles, and a long black wig. I don't see a problem. She wasn't making light of a racially divisive human tragedy.

Well, in that case, perhaps not.

I do recall going as "Hanz & Franz" from SNL one year as a kid, but I didn't do anything about my notably dark skin, and it was fine - the only person who couldn't recognize my white friend and I, simply didn't own a tv in the first place. There are also, say, cosplayers like this. I'd be pretty adamant in calling people who bad mouth her to be jerks.

I can't for the life of me right now think of a scenario where a person would go full blackface (white around the eyes and mouth) and not be turning one of the darkest aspects of American history into a gag. If an exception comes up (filming a documentary?) I would probably be OK with it.

Me, neither. It's worth pointing out here, that Robert Downey Jr. caught a bit of pushback for playing Nick Lazarus in Tropic Thunder, and that character was a *clear* parody of actors trying to get into their roles. But Halloween is another sore spot, since that's when you tend to get the full-on, no intelligent context blackface folks.

 

[blutoski]

As for your first comments, this is exactly what the problem is when it comes to "black" "white' (and of course other races.) That is, that non blacks do not admit that they are racist. And also blacks don't admit that they are racist towards their own community.

Thus the cliche phrase, "I'm not racist but <insert racist statement here>" - lack of insight is pretty common.

Racism exists right this very second and happens all the time. You can scroll through this thread and see the unconscious description of it. Blatant racism is somewhat easier to handle in these discussions because people can see the paradigm. But unconscious racism is a bigger part of the problem. And if you aren't willing to admit that you perpetuate racism it will never go away.

I agree that there are two categories, which should be handled differently. I think a change of mind in the first (self aware) category is going to be pretty rare, but the second category (unaware) can probably be persuaded given enough information, time, understanding... and what I call an "escape route".

I'll give you an example. I have an aunt who is in her 70s now, so her generation witnessed the civil rights leaps in the US and Canada in the 1960s. She is fine with me marrying a black woman, fine with having mixed grandnieces and grandnephews, so not in the self-aware racist category. She loved Guess Who's Coming To Dinner.

On the other hand, she says some things that make me double-take. The eeny-meeny-miny-moe song involves catching a black person by the toe. It's so ingrained in her memory (it was sung to her as a child, and she sang it to her kids in the 1960s) that I can't get her to change it to "tiger", and that was very difficult to explain to my kids.

We had a really akward Christmas dinner fifteen years ago when she asked my wife how many brothers and sisters she had, and my wife said she was an only child. My aunt asked "Oh, were the others taken away to social services?" Yikes. Then my wife mentioned that she did have a sister once, but she died. "Oh, like in a gang thing or drug overdose?" Eyowitch. No, her sister had a deformed heart and died a few days after being born. She was duly embarassed by these gaffes, but the point is that I think she had her sense of equality in the right place, while her knowledge of an ethnic group was drawn from Hollywood action/thrillers.

At this point it's somewhere between embarassing and quaint, but not a sign of evil.

 

[blutoski]

Me, neither. It's worth pointing out here, that Robert Downey Jr. caught a bit of pushback for playing Nick Lazarus in Tropic Thunder, and that character was a *clear* parody of actors trying to get into their roles.

Of interest, my friend was so much more offended by his use of the word 'retard' - her son has Down's - that she completely overlooked the blackface aspect.

 

[blutoski]

Me, neither. It's worth pointing out here, that Robert Downey Jr. caught a bit of pushback for playing Nick Lazarus in Tropic Thunder, and that character was a *clear* parody of actors trying to get into their roles.

Also worth mentioning: I once went out for hallowe'en as Michael Jackson. No makeup, and that was intentional, sort of making a joke about his skin lightening and nose european-ing.

Buuuuuut then he went and molested children... and died, and nothing about Michael is funny anymore. So I'm pretty sure I would not do that today.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Here's a clip from Dave Chappelle that might help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8fkv1UQcPg

Interesting that in a clip about racism he voices the Korean character with an "Ah so!" voice.

 

[Mumbles]

I can't tell whether you think that I'm "denying racism" -- that it exists or that it's a problem. Since you seem to be addressing me as the OP, I can't understand why you would mention denial of racism unless you think I'm doing it. If so, let me clarify: racism exists and is a major problem. I'm proposing we leave it behind, starting with the realization that race itself does not exist in any definite or definable or quantifiable or measurable or significant sense, and a recognition that physical traits do not affiliate one with some larger group.

And to tell the truth, that's my issue with the OP, for several reason. First and most obvious, you can suggest that *we* give it up, but watch me try to catch a cab. Even if I do accept that you truly wish to move beyond it and harbor no prejudice in life (and I accept that for nobody - including myself), all this means is that you aren't the problem. You giving up on the concept earns nothing.

Now, let's talk about a few other people. Fox News, referred to the rapper Common, who's first major hit was an anti-violence diatribe, as a "thug" and a "gangsta", and they're the top rated news channel, and thus the most profitable. Radio pundit Rush Limbaugh refers to middle class tax cuts as "forced reparations" when the first black president of the US proposes them. He's wildly rich, in part because of this. Bill O'Reilly yells that "the black community" does nothing about "black-on-black crime", spurns multiple offers to go into a black neighborhood to see what was done, and enjoys high ratings. Donald Trump shouted that the first black President wasn't born in the US, that his admissions to college were forged, and that he rose above himself due to affirmative action. And his media platform has *increased* because of it. And he was briefly the frontrunner for the GOP nomination to the US presidency.

In other words, the first problem you have, is that quite a few people (and my list was by no means exhaustive) find bigotry to be *profitable*. In other words, I think that, say, Limbaugh, says what he says because he's a hustler, and he knows full well that screeching about black people taking "your" money or beating "your" kids, will put money in his pocket?

Second, let's look to the audience. Yes, they're willing to swallow a bunch of malarkey. But one thing I've noted on this site about bigotry, is that it's often incoherent. As examples, we're supposed to think that we guys are logical and in control of our emotions, while women are hysterical and wild. Unless she wears a short skirt, in which case she is coldly driving us guys into a wild state of lust, this making anything we do her own fault. That clearly makes no real sense. Similarly, we hear, for example, that black people absolutely hate work and love being on welfare and food stamps, and if they have a decent job, then they can't deserve it and it's because of AA, and it's time to work to take that person down!

So...how are you going to fight that? You're dealing with a thorough, loud insistence that people of another race *must* be wrong and unacceptable, no matter what they're doing.

Third, well, how do you get past me? And really, I'm you're first obstacle. How do you convince me to just "give up" my own blackness? I grew up in a ghetto in the Crack Era, that was specifically set aside from black families by banks. I was beaten, robbed, sure. I also had quite a few opportunities due to luck. So I've been able to shrug off the folks who insist that I'm "Affirmative Action" after I get a 4.0, that I got where I am because of my skin color. I shrugged off teachers that threatened to kick me out of high-achieving classes because of my skin color, or who tried to get me expelled because of it. Or cops who tacked me and accused me of some absurd crime. Or people who called me a threat because I was just *around* them when they had an accident! or when They mistook a joke for a vicious threat. And I have a MS from a prestigious university. And I'm very happy, and proud of it. I'm proud of my mom who always had my back, I'm proud for my grandfather who raised my but died shortly before I graduated high school.

So...how do you expect me to give that up? To just forget about the roadblocks people threw in front of me, due to my skin color, that I overcame? I don't mean to trivialize anything you've been through, but in my view, I've face unfair skepticism for my entire life because of my skin color, and I've won every fight. I won't say that this is normal, but it's a part f my identity, and because of it, I hate people saying things to me like "I don't think of you as black".

All I can think is "Okay, so what would you do if you did?"

But getting back to it, what about those of us whose lives were shaped by fighting bigotry, and still are, and were molded into it?

 

[Mumbles]

Of interest, my friend was so much more offended by his use of the word 'retard' - her son has Down's - that she completely overlooked the blackface aspect.

Interesting that in a clip about racism he voices the Korean character with an "Ah so!" voice.

And he also has the black guy call the vietnamese guy a "chink". In other words, he's implying what his *real* point is.

 

[Mumbles]

Of interest, my friend was so much more offended by his use of the word 'retard' - her son has Down's - that she completely overlooked the blackface aspect.

I can see that. The word is growing into disfavor - the people I know who do use it, absolutely refuse to use it to demean anyone with any sort of mental issue. They use it exclusively to debate people who are simply making silly points.

*shrug* society evolves.

Also worth mentioning: I once went out for hallowe'en as Michael Jackson. No makeup, and that was intentional, sort of making a joke about his skin lightening and nose european-ing.

That's hilarious. But my point wasn't that a joke like that was fine, but rather that playing a character didn't really require slathering yourself in makeup...

Buuuuuut then he went and molested children... and died, and nothing about Michael is funny anymore. So I'm pretty sure I would not do that today.

Well...I still don't believe the story, but...

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

And he also has the black guy call the vietnamese guy a "chink". In other words, he's implying what his *real* point is.

It was a somewhat funny video, but I think I must have missed what the real point was, other than that racism still exists.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

And he also has the black guy call the vietnamese guy a "chink". In other words, he's implying what his *real* point is.

I think there's a difference between the two. When he's calling the Vietnamese guy by a racial epithet he's role-playing what someone is thinking, making the point that everybody is prejudiced in some way. He's overplaying it in every situation but, then he's a comedian.

However, when he's putting on an "ah so!" voice to role-play the Vietnamese guy, that's not Dave Chappelle saying "people are like this" and making a point about racism, it's Dave Chapelle actually doing that and actually being racist.

 

[Cain]

Anyone calling me racist is going to look pretty stupid when they find out the 2nd best butler I ever had was black.

 

[Kahalachan]

I think there's a difference between the two. When he's calling the Vietnamese guy by a racial epithet he's role-playing what someone is thinking, making the point that everybody is prejudiced in some way. He's overplaying it in every situation but, then he's a comedian.

However, when he's putting on an "ah so!" voice to role-play the Vietnamese guy, that's not Dave Chappelle saying "people are like this" and making a point about racism, it's Dave Chapelle actually doing that and actually being racist.

Ummm....what? He also uses white guy and black guy voices in this bit. While the accents between stereotypical white guy and black guy voices aren't as obvious as Asian accents, he's still using them.

The stereotype about how white people talk is that they sound more polite with better enunciation, sometimes anal sounding. Or sometimes people use a Southern or surfer or valley girl accent to portray how white people talk. I heard the white accent in Chappelle's routine.

And obviously to portray the black guy, Chappelle just talks normally.