The "Process" of John Edward

BillHoyt said:
Thanz,

I have answered everything. You continue to fail to understand the answers. It is useless to continue with you because you twist my answers into your answers or no answers at all.
Peddle this BS somewhere else, Mr. Hoyt. You have spectacularly failed to address the following example:
Let's make this a concrete example:

Reading 1:
JE: I am getting a "J" connection here.
Sitter: J?
JE: Yes, a "J" - like John, or Joe
sitter: I had an uncle Joe....

My method: one J guess.
BillHoyt:3? 4? J guesses?

Reading 2
JE: I am getting a "J" connection..
Sitter: My grandfather was John

Thanz:1 J
BillHoyt:1 J

Reading 3:
JE: I am getting a "Jim" connection here...
Sitter: Nope, I don't know any Jim
JE:What is the Canada connection?
Sitter: Blah blah

Thanz: 1 J
BillHoyt: 1 J

Reading 4
JE: I am sensing an older female
Sitter: My Mother has passed
JE: was her name "Jennifer"
Sitter: no, it was Roberta

Thanz: 1 J
Bill Hoyt: 1 J

Now, here is my problem with your counting method. In your method, reading 1 has as much weight as readings 2, 3, and 4 combined. However, in all cases, he is trying to make one J connection. Remember, we are trying to count how many times he will guess a certain letter, for cold reading purposes. If we have 3 separate readings (2, 3, 4) in which he makes a "J" guess, that is much different than the one reading with the multiple names. That distinction is lost in your method. My method counts all of them equally.
Why do you consider reading 1 to be equivalent to readings 2, 3, and 4 combined? What is the logical basis for this?

Let's not also forget this post:
Bill, when are you actually going to address the real issues here? Lets try taking this step by step. Let's see if you can actually address them point by point.

1.Both rejections of the null hypothesis, however you feel like defining that term, were based on flawed data of one kind or another. Kerberos on flawed control data, yours on flawed counting data.

2. The test that you propose of the null hypothesis is capable of being performed with data other than the data that you yourself have compiled.

3. If we perform your test of the null hypothesis with the raw data compiled by Kerberos (his counts of intials), the null hypothesis cannot be rejected.

4. If we perform your test of the null hypothesis with the raw data that I have compiled, we also cannot reject the null hypothesis.

Do you have anything substantive at all to say about any of these points, or do you just wish to insult me again and hope that nobody realizes that you are just runninng away?
Anything to say to these point, Mr. Hoyt?
I have said before the sitters responses don't matter for the counting. I have repeated it. I have said before that JE's acceptance of those responses also does not matter for the counting. I have repeated that.
Well, finally, some agreement. They are irrelevant for counting purposes. Whoopie!!
I have also clearly said that JE's acceptance of certain responses matters greatly to your 1 guess - 1 person assumption. It refutes it.
Then, by this logic, your counting method and the assumption of one guess per name is refuted everytime JE accepts one hit for a string of names. Examples:
EDWARD: Where does the Lewis or the Louis or the L-name?
CALLER: The L. I had a uncle that had died when I was a little kid.
EDWARD: Where's the Jane connection or Jeannie?
CALLER: Jane would be sister-in-law.
EDWARD: OK. Ask her. Because they're telling me to connect it either through either Janey or Jeannie.
This happens quite frequently. JE spits out a letter, or a few names, and one hits. He goes with the one hit. And thus, according to your logic, the assumption that each name should be treated as a separate guess is refuted.

Further, my method was based on logic. It was not only based on one person, one guess - as should be obvious to anyone reading this. I stated early on, for example, that if he stated that he was looking fo two J, we count 2 guesses.
 
voidx said:

I would score it like this.

1 K letter guess
1 Karen name guess
1 C letter guess
1 11 number guess
1 narrowing guess of the 11th month novemeber
1 narrowing guess of the 11th day of any month
1 obvious mark for fishing for information :D
Thank you for your reply.

Now, I would ask you to make the assumption that for the purposes of our analysis, a guess of a name will be considered the equivalent of the guess of the first initial of that name. How would you score it (just focussing on the letters)?
 
Thanks for posting the link to the transcripts.

I'll go over them this weekend, do the analysis, and write it up, then post the results.

I'm going to do a chi-square analysis with the 6 high-frequency letters, and I'm going to do it counting Bill, Brad, and Bonch as 1.
 
Thanz said:

Thank you for your reply.

Now, I would ask you to make the assumption that for the purposes of our analysis, a guess of a name will be considered the equivalent of the guess of the first initial of that name. How would you score it (just focussing on the letters)?
Well obviously I wouldn't count "K, like in Karen" as 2 hits, it would just be one. Although I'm still not certain its wise to do it that way. I think "names" and "first letter" guess' should be counted seperately. To me its 2 overall guess', or rather, a guess with an instant modifier guess' attached to it. Its like saying, I'm getting Africa, probably like Kenya. I am making 2 guess' but its a smart thing to do because I take a blind stab at kenya, but as long as its still Africa, I'm getting points. I do realize you have to draw a line somewhere in order to do this analysis, but I'm just not sure I like the assumption your asking me to make. To clarify though if he just states Karen, then sure you could take that as a guess at a k "letter", but if he goes, K, like Karen I have a harder time accepting that.
 
voidx said:

Well obviously I wouldn't count "K, like in Karen" as 2 hits, it would just be one. Although I'm still not certain its wise to do it that way. I think "names" and "first letter" guess' should be counted seperately. To me its 2 overall guess', or rather, a guess with an instant modifier guess' attached to it. Its like saying, I'm getting Africa, probably like Kenya. I am making 2 guess' but its a smart thing to do because I take a blind stab at kenya, but as long as its still Africa, I'm getting points. I do realize you have to draw a line somewhere in order to do this analysis, but I'm just not sure I like the assumption your asking me to make. To clarify though if he just states Karen, then sure you could take that as a guess at a k "letter", but if he goes, K, like Karen I have a harder time accepting that.
For the record, I agree with you. I also think that actual names should be scored differently. However, when I suggested that, Mr. Hoyt referred to it as "malarky" and that my attempts to distinguish them were hilarious. So, I just went with his assumption that a guess of "Karen" should be considered the same as a guess of "K". And when I did my count, taking out the extra guesses that Mr. Hoyt's method puts in, we could not reject the null hypothesis.
 
Thanz said:

For the record, I agree with you. I also think that actual names should be scored differently. However, when I suggested that, Mr. Hoyt referred to it as "malarky" and that my attempts to distinguish them were hilarious. So, I just went with his assumption that a guess of "Karen" should be considered the same as a guess of "K". And when I did my count, taking out the extra guesses that Mr. Hoyt's method puts in, we could not reject the null hypothesis.
Fair enough.
 
Is it possible that JE uses a name for clarification on which letter he is saying? Some letters do sound alike. Similarly, some names sound alike and using an abbreviated name clears up which name we might be referring to. How do we distinguish of this is the case or not? Thus, a name may not always be a guess.

I think if we were totalling up "guesses" then I would count each name. If we were totalling up letter tallies, then a string of "J" names should be counted as one tally in my opinion.

It gets difficult when he says, hard "C" or "K" name.

Lurker
 
BillHoyt said:


"Somebody has a name like would be off of a map or something. Like they would be named for a location. Like they called the person, you know, New York or they called the person, Brooklyn or they called the person, you know, Boston."

"Somebody has a nickname after a spice, like pepper? Who's got a spice name?... Salty or pepper, cinnamon."

Explain these, please. Phonetically How does one "hear" a map name? How does one "hear" a spice name?

Fine, Pill. I forgot that I can't depend upon you guys to figure these things out for yourselves. I thought it would be clear that I was referring to those names that JE gets clairaudiently, which is how he receives the majority of the names he gets.

In those other cases, he is being clairvoyantly shown something
within his own frame of reference to prompt him to say what he needs to say to get the message out. For instance, he might know someone with a dog named ginger. That would indicate that he should give out a spice name, possibly even "ginger", but not necessarily. It could be any spice name.

The other nickname, like a person named after a location, could be conveyed to him by showing him someone he knows, or some character in a movie/book etc. named Tex, or Dallas, or Fresno. Get it? Got it? Good! :p .......neo
 
Fact check. "Clairvoyant" and "Clairaudient" are imaginary properties. I have a clairolfactory sense about that.
 
Jeff Corey said:
Fact check. "Clairvoyant" and "Clairaudient" are imaginary properties. I have a clairolfactory sense about that.

lol Jeff, I still can't believe that you stood Instig8R and myself up last Friday. (sniff) :( I can understand you not wanting to make the trip for JE, but to pass up the chance to have a drink with us????? :con2: .......neo
 
Sorry, again, what was the reason they can only get one letter? Is the communication channel noisy? Then why is it always the first letter?

~~ Paul
 
Neofight,

(From JE Transcript) : "Somebody has a name like would be off of a map or something. Like they would be named for a location. Like they called the person, you know, New York or they called the person, Brooklyn or they called the person, you know, Boston."

(neofight wrote) : In those other cases, he is being clairvoyantly shown something
within his own frame of reference to prompt him to say what he needs to say to get the message out.
Neo, I understand that your explanation ("clairvoyant images") is a possibility. I understand that *if* JE was genuine then this might be what happens. But honestly, doesn't this precise example give you even a moments pause? Doesn't it seem just a lot like classic cold reading? "Somebody has a name like would be off of a map or something" - aren't you at least a little uncomfortable about this? "... a map or something..." - hell, he isn't even saying it's a name from a map!!

Assume you're a spirit trying to convey the name "Boston" through to JE. For some reason, you can't send the name itself(obviously, some spirits can and some can't). As an aside, for some reason spirits who can send names through don't seem to send their own name very often - they send through the name of their cousin, or father, or niece. But I digress - this spirit is not only "name-challenged", but also "letter-challenged". Wants to send through "Boston", but can't get either the name or the first letter through. Why not "show" JE Boston harbor? A reconstruction of the Boston Tea party? The Boston Celtics? Bunker Hill? Instead, our well meaning but psychically crippled spirit settles on sending through "...a map, or something...". If some of JE's comments make you feel "yes, that's amazing!" doesn't this particular transcript make you feel "oh...that's pretty suspect"?
 
Posted by Paul Anagnostopolous

Then why is it always the first letter?

It isn't, Paul. It's often much more phonetic than that, for example, he might get an 'L' and 'N' sound together for a name like "Ellen" or 'D' and 'N' sounds together for something like "Don" or "Dan". (Even in our conversations, its a lot easier to hear the consonant sounds than to distinguish vowels...and "clairaudience" is not as clear as just having a conversation with someone. Its more like receiving fragments of the complete sounds, symbols, and images and understanding them well enough to form the message from them. And, yes, I know you don't believe it works like that...just responding to your comment about the "process"....).
 
Clancie said:

It isn't, Paul. It's often much more phonetic than that, for example, he might get an 'L' and 'N' sound together for a name like "Ellen" or 'D' and 'N' sounds together for something like "Don" or "Dan". (Even in our conversations, its a lot easier to hear the consonant sounds than to distinguish vowels...and "clairaudience" is not as clear as just having a conversation with someone. Its more like receiving fragments of the complete sounds, symbols, and images and understanding them well enough to form the message from them. And, yes, I know you don't believe it works like that...just responding to your comment about the "process"....).
[/B]

What's the difference between this and classic cold reading?

Forget the explanation from JE, we cannot rely on that. Look at what is happening.

No difference at all.
 
Here are the results of my basic analysis. I got too it a little sooner than this weekend it turned out. Any comments are appreciated.

----
Introduction

Are psychic mediums really communicating with the spirits when they state letters/names, or are they thinking probabilistically and simply choosing the letters/names that are common?

The medium in question is John Edward (JE). JE has a television show called Crossing Over, and makes appearances on Larry King Live. On each of these shows he does readings, and claims to get messages from the spirits. Skeptics say that JE is performing cold reading, a collection of techniques used (and in use) by magicians to simulate getting messages from the beyond. Which of these explanations fits the facts? Through a basic analysis, this paper will show that JE used the high frequency letters less than what was expected.

We can only speculate without actually collecting and analyzing data. Many skeptics and believers alike have dissected JE's transcripts in order to reveal what was going, or not going, on. These approaches, while instructive, do not lend themselves to numerical analyses. A few members (skeptics and believers) on the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF) bulletin board thought it would be instructive to see if they could analyze the letters/names JE gives in a numerical manner, and see what conclusions could be drawn. This paper is one skeptic's attempt.

The transcripts of three Larry King Live shows in which JE appeared were obtained from the JREF thread: http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24032. Specifically, these transcripts were: http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/10/lkl.00.html, http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0209/06/lkl.00.html, and http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0302/28/lkl.00.html.

Methods
This analysis focused on the letters/names clearly referring to humans, that occured only where JE was doing readings over the phone. The instances where a letter/name guess occured on a Crossing Over clip were not included in the counts.

This paper reports the results of a chi-square goodness of fit analysis on JE's usage of high-frequency letters. The “high-frequency” letters were defined by this author as the letters where (see footnote 1) 80*frequency for that letter according to the 1990 combined adjusted male and female Census Bureau data is greater than 5. Using that definition, the following 6 letters were determined to be high-frequency: A, C, D, J, M, R.

The full frequencies can be obtained at: http://www.randi.org/vbulletin showthread.php?s=&threadid=24602&perpage=40&pagenumber=10.

The counts of A, C, D, J, M, and R were obtained from the three transcripts. Occurances of a string of names were counted as a singular occurance of that letter. Hypothetically, 'like a John, Jake, or Jack', if listed at the same place in the reading by JE, would be counted as 1 guess of J, not as 3 guesses. It seems reasonable that JE focuses more on the sound of the name, as he has stated himself numerous times, although whether this is the case is still up for debate. In this example, JE would be talking about a name that starts with a J. This author agrees that a more complicated analysis would treat name guesses and letter guesses separately, and/or somehow penalize the medium by weighting multiple name guesses less.

The table of the counts, per transcript and the total counts, is shown below:

(9/10/01, 9/6/02, 3/28/03, Observed total counts)
A: (0, 1, 0, 1)
C: (2, 0, 2, 4)
D: (0, 1, 0, 1)
J: (4, 2, 2, 8)
M: (0, 1, 1, 2)
R: (1, 1, 1, 3)

Expected letter frequencies (from the 1990 combined adjusted male and female Census Bureau data):
A: .0648
C: .0721
D: .0742
J: .1336
M: .1003
R: .080

Expected counts = 80 guesses*1990 combined adjusted male and female Census Bureau data frequencies =
A: 5.18
C: 5.768
D: 5.936
J: 10.68
M: 8.030
R: 6.40

The test statistic for a chi-square goodness of fit test is: SUM[(Observed-Expected)^2/Expected]. This test statistic would be compared to a chi-square distribution on k-1 degrees of freedom, where k is the number of distinct groups. Readers interested in specific details can do a Google search for 'chi-square goodness of fit test' for specific calculation details.

Conclusion

We reject the hypothesis that JE uses letter frequencies according to the 1990 combined adjusted male and female Census Bureau data (p-value from a chi-square goodness of fit test on 5 degrees of freedom = .0102). According to the observed counts, JE used the high frequency letters less than what was expected.

Discussion

There are many potential problems with the analysis presented in this paper.

First, it is not clear to the author if defining the high-frequency letters in the ad-hoc manner which was done was appropriate. Second, one assumption for a chi-square analysis is that the sample values are independent. The independence assumption was violated several times when JE would guess more than one letter/name while he was reading the same person.

It would be reasonable to perform a follow-up analysis with more than 3 transcripts. The author feels that this study is limited by "pseudo replication". The sample size, "n", is really 3, not 80. Having more guesses per transcript doesn't increase our number of transcripts.

It would also be interesting to use a more current Census Bureau list and see how that impacts the analysis.

It is also important to note that many different people have different methods of counting the letter/name occurances. Clearly the analysis is highly sensitive to the counting methodology. It would be wise for the skeptical and believer communities to develop and agree upon a standardized counting method.

Ideally, the author believes that it would be more productive from a scientific viewpoint to study JE in a lab setting as opposed to studying the transcripts from a television show, but believes one can still learn something informative by analyzing the transcripts from JE's television appearances.

---

(1) 80 guesses was estimated by the author as an eyeball average of JREF posters' counts of the total number of guesses.
 
There are two flaws in Tai Chi’s paper. (I, by the way, have no qualification in statistics whatsoever.)

Flaw 1: Tai Chi’s analysis does not include JE’s 1998 appearance on LKL

Flaw 2: The total number of guesses (of names) across all four LKL appearances is not 80, but 52.

Counting up all four transcripts, I make the results,

A: 2
C: 6
D: 2
J: 14
M: 4
R: 4

(NB, C only=1, C or K=3, K=2. Given that JE gets his info phonetically, it’s fair to group these together)
(“J” includes “J or G” guesses, of which there were 4)

Using the above method to get expected frequencies we get:

A: 3.3 (JE uses A less than expected)
C: 3.7 (assuming Tai Chi’s figures accounted for the C/K effect, JE uses these more)
D: 3.8 (JE uses these less)
J: 6.9 (JE uses these more)
M: 5.2 (JE uses these less)
R: 4.1 (JE uses these as expected)

Now, one big problem is the small number of guesses we have to go by. Most of the times we see JE using a letter less than you’d think, the margin is by about one.

However, I doubt that this method of analysing transcripts has anything going for it. Without looking at the responses and the circumstances leading to the guess, it’s impossible to say if there is cold reading or not. For example, the D guesses are less than you’d expect, but there’s a reason for that: JE predominantly uses this guess when talking about younger people, especially boys (D and T names tend to crop up in readings concerning children). By looking at these number, you can’t tell that.
 
Hi Ersby,

Thanks for the corrections and additions. I didn't go back and double-check, etc., but here are the calculations assuming the counts, etc., are correct:

Total counts for all 4 transcripts
A: 2
C: 6
D: 2
J: 14
M: 4
R: 4

Expected frequencies
A: 3.3
C: 3.7
D: 3.8
J: 6.9
M: 5.2
R: 4.1

With this updated information, we fail to reject the hypothesis that JE uses letter frequencies according to the 1990 combined adjusted male and female Census Bureau data (p-value from a chi-square goodness of fit test on 5 degrees of freedom = .065). According to the observed counts, JE used J much more than expected, C more than what was expected, and A, D, M, and R less than what was expected.
 
Expected frequencies
A: 3.3
C: 3.7
D: 3.8
J: 6.9
M: 5.2
R: 4.1

Unfortunately, the chi-square test results become suspect for cells with expected frequencies below 5. The results are also suspect for total chi-square values under 50.
 

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