"The Principle" - anti-Copernican movie

[Trebuchet]

Here is the YouTube channel of the people in question that made the pseudo-documentary in the original post. At least, I'm sure it's the same people.

Yes, that's correct. In addition to being a geocentrist nutter, Robert Sungenis is also an anti-Semite and holocaust denier, although he's taken all that stuff down since his own church got after him for it.

 

[Pacal]

Nice theory. Do they have any evidence to back it up?

It's been the Scientific consensus that Spacetime in our Universe is curved 4th dimensionally, ever since Einstein's theory of relativity, which has been validated numerous times by experimentation.

See this on curved space http://www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/topics_relativity_curved.html

By all means prove that spacetime is not curved 4th dimensionally and win a Nobel prize for physics.

 

[steenkh]

It's been the Scientific consensus that Spacetime in our Universe is curved 4th dimensionally, ever since Einstein's theory of relativity, which has been validated numerous times by experimentation.

See this on curved space http://www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/topics_relativity_curved.html

By all means prove that spacetime is not curved 4th dimensionally and win a Nobel prize for physics.

The claim was that "if you flew in a straight line from the earth you would eventually end up back on earth", which is curvature on a grand scale of the universe, and not the curvature caused by gravity.

ETA: In fact, so far, all measurements of the cosmic microwave background that I know of have been consistent with a flat universe.

 

[Pacal]

The claim was that "if you flew in a straight line from the earth you would eventually end up back on earth", which is curvature on a grand scale of the universe, and not the curvature caused by gravity.

ETA: In fact, so far, all measurements of the cosmic microwave background that I know of have been consistent with a flat universe.

The results are also perfectly consistent with a Universe curved positively or negatively albeit very small rates of curvature.

However you are right. I got the idea from science popularization stuff I had read and books like One Two Three Infinity and I was insufficiently critical. If space has a "negative" curvature or is "flat" and hence likely "infinite" than you can't travel from earth in a straight line and end up back on earth. Aside from the problem of the solar system moving in the meanwhile you've been traveling.

Mea Culpa.

 

[lpetrich]

The movie's makers have their own Facebook page: The Principle On their site: Opening Weekend And Moving Forward Update | The Principle -- they are adding a second theater in Chicago and negotiating its appearance in theaters in other cities.

 

[Trebuchet]

The movie's makers have their own Facebook page: The Principle On their site: Opening Weekend And Moving Forward Update | The Principle -- they are adding a second theater in Chicago and negotiating its appearance in theaters in other cities.

I wouldn't bet on it -- one way or the other. The run at the first theater has ended, raking in a grand total of $9465. That's after $8657 in the opening weekend, leaving only $998 in it's last four days. Even assuming rather low ticket prices, that's only about 200 people who'd have seen it. Unlike previous releases by Rocky Mountain pictures, it doesn't have a built-in audience. Expelled had creationists. Dinesh D'Souza's Obama movie had conservatives. But there aren't all that many geocentrists.

ETA: Well, well, here's an actual date: http://www.theprinciplemovie.com/principle-comes-downtown-chicago-november-7/

 

[Mudcat]

Yes, that's correct. In addition to being a geocentrist nutter, Robert Sungenis is also an anti-Semite and holocaust denier, although he's taken all that stuff down since his own church got after him for it.

So basically he isn't worth listening to.

The claim was that "if you flew in a straight line from the earth you would eventually end up back on earth", which is curvature on a grand scale of the universe, and not the curvature caused by gravity.

Wasn't this the plot of PaychecK?

 

[lpetrich]

Robert Sungenis » The Private Lives of Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, Newton and Einstein claiming that those gentlemen weren't exactly very nice. Fortunately, science doesn't depend on their personalities.

Protecting Faith from Pseudoscience: A Review of The Principle | Truth & Charity

Camille M. Carlisle is the science editor at Sky & Telescope magazine.

I was recently asked to review a new movie called The Principle, being released this month. The film, produced by Catholic theologian Robert Sungenis, uses science to raise the specter of geocentrism — the theory that Earth is at the physical center of the universe. With breathtaking cinematography and intellectual one-two punches, it paints a compelling argument that geocentrism might be right and the world’s scientists are willfully blind to the evidence.

Compelling, that is, if you know nothing about astrophysics.

If you do, you’ll soon see that the movie is a combination of science, bogus science, and conspiracy theory, tied up in a Gordian knot that would take much more than a blog to fully unravel.

The reason I’m writing about it in a Catholic blog is this: the movie has the potential to erode the scientific literacy of believers and convince nonbelievers that science and Christianity don’t mix.

She then criticized the movie for several scientific errors.

Even if the Earth is at a central spot, it could not be exactly at the Universe's center, because it moves around the Sun, the Sun moves around our Galaxy's center, and our Galaxy moves along with the other Local Group galaxies, and the Local Group is at the edge of a supercluster of galaxies.

John Hartnett has claimed that the Earth has a special position in the Universe because of certain cosmic structures, but Tom Bridgman has rebutted it in several blogs on this subject.

The movie also argues that dark matter and dark energy are "patches", efforts to save a failing paradigm with fudge factors.

The movie's creators also have some grudge against Albert Einstein.

But my biggest complaint is the movie’s underlying philosophical argument. The movie claims that moving Earth from the physical center of everything implies that “man means nothing,” that if the universe doesn’t revolve around Earth, we aren’t special.

This dichotomy is a materialist lie. As Stephen Barr brilliantly lays out in his book Modern Physics and Ancient Faith, we need to separate scientific results from the philosophy that uses them to make its case.

I myself don't see why we have to have some cosmic significance. Would it really be heartbreaking if the Universe wasn't created with us in mind?

Response to Sky and Telescope Re: The Principle | The Principle, by Robert Sungenis.

RS has to invent some pseudophysical gibberish to explain how the Sun orbits the Earth, despite the Sun being much more massive. He also stated about geocentrism that it is the teaching of the Bible and the "tradition of the Catholic Church".

 

[Mudcat]

I myself don't see why we have to have some cosmic significance. Would it really be heartbreaking if the Universe wasn't created with us in mind?

I don't see why it would be. A universe without life doesn't preclude the possibility of an intelligent designer any more than a universe with it requires one. And even if it were to turn out that this universe really was designed by a higher being who's to say that life is something that they made intentionally instead of arising independently?

Geocentricism and religion both hinge too much on earth and humanity being special, and both fail to see that we really are without having to make ourselves so.

 

[Allen773]

Reading up on Mr. Sungenis...

Sungenis's controversial views of the Jewish people and Judaism have been sharply criticized by fellow Catholics and by the Southern Poverty Law Center as being anti-semitic.[15][16][17][18] In 2002, he claimed it was a fact that no one had ever proven that 6 million Jews died during the Holocaust and that demographic statistics show no real difference in the number of Jews living before and after World War II. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, he also "repeated a series of ancient anti-Semitic canards" and later wrote about the involvement of Jews and Israel in a Zionist Satanic conspiracy aimed at Satan ruling the world.[17][18] Sungenis has also claimed that Israel orchestrated the JFK assassination in retaliation for the president's opposition to Israeli nuclear weapons.[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Sungenis#Jews_and_Judaism

Sounds like a swell guy.

 

[Trebuchet]

I'm pretty sure the Pope is insufficiently Catholic for him.

 

[lpetrich]

I'm pretty sure the Pope is insufficiently Catholic for him.

I wouldn't be surprised. There are even some traditionalist Catholics who call themselves "sedevacantists", from sede vacante "with the seat empty" (Latin ablative case). Here, the seat is the pope's position. Sedevacantists consider the most recent popes illegitimate, though they disagree on who was the last legitimate pope. However, Robert Sungenis seems to reject sedevacantism.

 

[lpetrich]

The Principle Movie (@PrincipleMovie) | Twitter
The Principle on Facebook
The Principle Movie - YouTube
The Principle^WP

Much more to come as The Principle opens in Los Angeles and more cities in January. Take a minute and demand the movie in your town here

Demand It | The Principle

Are we significant, or just a cosmic accident?

The videos include

▶ Copernican Principle - YouTube -- a woman appears in a hologram and briefly explains the Copernican principle. The makers of "The Principle" hired the special-effects company BUF to make the movie's special effects.

The cast:

• Kate Mulgrew -- Narrator ***
• Charissa Saverio -- Hologram
• Lawrence M. Krauss -- interviewee: physicist ***
• Michio Kaku -- interviewee: physicist ***
• Robert Sungenis -- interviewee: producer, theologian, geocentrist
• Max Tegmark -- interviewee: physicist ***
• Robert Bennett -- interviewee: physicist, geocentrist
• Martin Selbrede -- interviewee: theologian
• John Hartnett -- interviewee: physicist, creationist
• Julian Barbour -- interviewee: physicist ***
• Bernard Carr -- interviewee: physicist
• John Byl -- interviewee: theologian, physicist
• George F.R. Ellis -- interviewee: physicist ***
• Ron Hatch -- interviewee: physicist

*** -- people who have disavowed the movie

 

[Mudcat]

*** -- people who have disavowed the movie

I wonder how badly they were edited for this pseudo-documentary.

 

[Trebuchet]

I wonder how badly they were edited for this pseudo-documentary.

Not just badly, but dishonestly.

The film has had two theatrical runs now, both of about a week. Box office results haven't been updated since November 13 and show US$17,000 plus in take. Sungenis's co-producer Rick DeLano is blaming pressure from a "prominent left-wing hate group" (probably SPLC) for the film being pulled from the first theater. They were trying to pump attendance at the second one by giving away free tickets, but it's closed there as well.

I've been following this pretty closely because of a thread at another forum (Ipetrich knows which one) where we've got a poster who seems to think this is the most important film ever made and keeps making inane statements about how prominent people in science and atheism (he's mentioned Phil Plait and Richard Dawkins, IIRC) are going to be picketing the theaters. The reality, of course, is that they don't even care.

 

[Cobra]

As this movie is now available in its entirety on YouTube, I feel a large bag of popcorn coming on. I've not sat through a really good comedy for years.

I notice also that the YouTube comments section is open for the general public to register their opinions...

 

[Trebuchet]

As this movie is now available in its entirety on YouTube, I feel a large bag of popcorn coming on. I've not sat through a really good comedy for years.

I notice also that the YouTube comments section is open for the general public to register their opinions...

Not finding that. Got a link?

 

[Mudcat]

As this movie is now available in its entirety on YouTube, I feel a large bag of popcorn coming on. I've not sat through a really good comedy for years.

I notice also that the YouTube comments section is open for the general public to register their opinions...

When I search YouTube I find a file named "The Principle Movie Full" which is just a message linking to a pay-to-view streaming site.

 

[dudalb]

For the record, the vast majority of Catholic Publicataions are ridiculing this film and pointing out that Sungenis opinions represent nobody but his own.
Even a lot of the Traditionalist Catholics are diassociating themselves from Sungenis and his opinions.

 

[Mudcat]

That probably has little to do with his "Earth is at a center of the universe" claims. Those claims, while thoroughly debunked hundreds of years ago, are acceptable. I think it's his anti-Semitic, anti-Hollocaust claims that the Catholics are weary about.