The Phoenix Lights... We Are Not Alone

chuck4842 said:
Lt. Col. Ed Jones is probably related to John doe since Lt. Col. Ed Jones never stated publicly he was one of the flare droppin' Warthog pilots. Lt. Col. Ed Jones murmered this to Ron Ball in 2000 who announced it before he dropped dead in 2000. The official statement from the USAF National guard of Maryland is the ufo event of march 1997 was actually A10 Warthogs "dumping" unused flares,("And we can prove it!" thats the last we've heardfrom them 10 years later) and A10 warthogs carry no more than 4 flares each. The reason they dump them before returning is safety reasons, explain the AF. 9 flares(notice I didn't quote flares this time) appeared in sequence and order from right to left as if by one plane. I am not saying this is ET darn it. I'm saying maybe the flyboys are screwing with us and think it's funny. Happens all the time, just search the vids.
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Hmmm....I don't think we established that Ball is dead. However, let's move on beyond this point because I think you need to examine that the real source of all this discussion is the Arizona Republic articles of February 25 and March 1, 2007 by Scott Craven. He was the actual source for the information about Lt. Col. Ed Jones, whose authenticity can be verified. The articles states, "He now is assistant director of operations for the 104th Fighter Squadron of the Maryland National Guard." So feel free to check up on Craven's work but I am one to accept the fact that there is probably a Lt. Col. Ed Jones at the 104th fighter squadron (not to be confused with the 104th fighter wing in Mass.). If you want to check up on it, feel free to contact the PAO for the 104th (remember it is the fighter squadron and not the wing).

As for the number of flares per plane, I believe that Bill Hamilton was the one who stated there were four per aircraft but a little research revealed that this was not the case. As best I can tell the aircraft carried an SUU-25 F/A dispenser pod (or possibly the newer SUU-42). Each carries 8 flares. So each plane carried at least one dispenser with 8 flares. However, these are mounted on the hardpoints of the aircraft of which there appears to be 11. Theoretically, all 11 hardpoints could have had a pod mounted on them. I don't think that is likely but my guess is they may have mounted at least two (one per wing) meaning the aircraft probably carried 16 flares each and a minimum of eight. Jones states in the February 25th article:

He and the rest of his colleagues were cruising the night skies of southwestern Arizona on the last night of Operation Snowbird, so named because they were winter visitors. Pilots dropped flares to light the night but had no idea they were about to ignite controversy as well.

On the way back to Tucson, not far from Gila Bend, Jones says, he reminded pilots to eject their leftover flares. Since this was their last night on maneuvers, it was more cost-effective to eject the flares than to offload and store the munitions upon returning.

"One of our guys had about 10 or so left, so he started to puke them out, one after another," Jones says. "So every few seconds or so, when the next flare was ready to go, he hit the button and launched it."

Jones looked behind him and saw an evenly spaced string of lights over the desert, floating ever so slowly to earth. Each was extremely bright, a "couple million" candle power, Jones knew. They seemed to hover because heat from the flare rose into the parachute, as if each were a tiny hot-air balloon. The planes headed for the base.

Jones and the rest of the crew returned to Maryland. Several weeks later, Jones says, "All this stuff just blew up."

So it may have been just one aircraft from the formation that dropped the flares or it may have been more. We really do not know. Hopefully, this clarifies things a bit.
 
chuck4842 said:
You want me to "do the math" thru a Dobsonian telescope. Call me lazy, I just don't feel like it . I can't get the slow moving moon in an amateur telescope for my kids. But they can for me.
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Actually, I did the math for you. Depending on the angle of elevation the angular speed is about .2-.3 deg/second. It depends on the speed. It could be as high as 1 deg/sec. This is about the speed of the spacestation, which amateur astronomers have been tracking for many years and getting some pretty cool videos. Many of their field of views were much smaller than Mitch's (he had about a 1 deg FOV). I don't think tracking something moving at a degree per second would be too difficult esp. with a nice Dobsonian mount.
 
Thanks for doing the math for me. Trust me you don't want to screw with me on my math. I love numbers because they are so damned honest. If you can verify "the information about Lt. Col. Ed Jones, whose authenticity can be verified." You might make the papers, not because he's a person. I quit reading after that, I told you to try the 1 page resume . Again my passion is a challenge in math, I thought 1st of all eyewitnesses(Dobsonian telescope only adds more variables), can't trust their eyes. But now thru math we see they can.
 
"it was more cost-effective to eject the flares than to offload and store the munitions upon returning." More cost-effective to whom? Definitely not the taxpayers. Why not save fuel and come home? I'd love to examine the Arizona Republic articles, but I can't seem to find any with references published at the time. I'd call an ask but I already know the answer.
 
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Astrophotographer said:
The air formation was moving at a high ground speed but due to its altitude, it's angular speed (the apparent speed to an observer) would have been low. Do the math. An aircraft moving 400 mph at 20,000 feet would appear to a ground observer to be moving at the same speed as an aircraft moving at 40 mph at 2000 feet or 20 mph at 1000 feet.
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You're the only one that I'm aware of, that knows the speed and height of a 10 year old UFO. Did you start your equation from Stanleys telescope? How large would a formation of 5 jets , each being 32 ft. long, 12 yard wingspans, appear at 20,000 feet compared to 2000 feet? According to alot of eyewitnesses, "a few city blocks".
 
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chuck4842 said:
You're the only one that I'm aware of, that knows the speed and height of a 10 year old UFO. Did you start your equation from Stanleys telescope? How large would a formation of 5 jets , each being 32 ft. long, 12 yard wingspans, appear at 20,000 feet compared to 2000 feet? According to alot of eyewitnesses, "a few city blocks".
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I am not stating that this was the actual speed but we already know how far they traveled in a given amount of time. You did the computations earlier. We also know that the cruise speed of Tutor aircraft is somewhere between 300 and 400 mph. It does not take any rocket scientist to figure out the math.
As for "A lot of eyewitnesses", feel free to name the "a lot". I went back and checked my nuforc reports and the portion that claimed a large dark object was a very small fraction. However, let's figure out how they computed it. You incorrectly focus on the size of the aircraft. What you need to focus is on the size of the formation of lights. Additionally, how big is "a few city" blocks when you have no frame of reference? A few city blocks from outer space appears to be an indinstinguishable dot. A few city blocks from an aircraft overhead is not much larger. You are using frames of reference that do not apply to objects in the sky since you do not know the distance to the object (which many of these eyewitnesses to massive objects got wrong). Only angular sizes can be used for valid estimates.
If the aircraft were flying several hundred feet apart the formation would cover a fairly big chunck of sky. This could be anywhere from 3-10 degrees, which is not a small area if you are used to seeing aircraft or the moon in the sky.
 
chuck4842 said:
Thanks for doing the math for me. Trust me you don't want to screw with me on my math. I love numbers because they are so damned honest. If you can verify "the information about Lt. Col. Ed Jones, whose authenticity can be verified." You might make the papers, not because he's a person. I quit reading after that, I told you to try the 1 page resume . Again my passion is a challenge in math, I thought 1st of all eyewitnesses(Dobsonian telescope only adds more variables), can't trust their eyes. But now thru math we see they can.
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Hmmm....So far you seem to have problems grasping the math issues I have presented.

I apologize that I can not provide bullet responses but the information is far too detailed to chop it up and leave out details that I find pertinent. Your claim was that Lt. Col. Ed Jones did not exist. I directed you to his current position and to an article where a reporter talked to the person. I am sure he contacted him through the 104th fighter squadron. If you want to verify it, feel free but I am will to accept the reporters word in this case.

As for not trusting eyewitnesses, you have to trust their observations based on what they report. Had so people reported a dragon or a witch that night instead of a boomerang, would you be so willing to trust them with that report? The more exotic the observations, the more critically you have to examine them. Stanley reports seeing aircraft through his telescope. There is no reason to doubt that. Had he stated he saw witches on brooms, I would question that observation. A great number of eyewitnesses in the NUFORC database just report lights in the sky in formation and no object behind the lights. As for the "large black object" observations, it appears the other eyewitnesses demonstrate they were exaggerations/misperceptions by excited observers. Those witnesses did see something but they did not accurately report what was observed.
 
TjW said:
Just out of curiosity, how much would you expect the stall speed to have changed in ten years?
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None. I'm referring to the flare changes, in 1997 they were using LUU something or another according to the AF statement
 
I never said Lt. Col. Jones didn't exist. I said he might as well be John doe because his testimony wasn't public, and ...never mind. Wasn't I the one who brought Jones to the table? You had Tanaka. Also your saying from your calculations, the v formation was 20,000 feet high, I know eyewitnesses may be mistaken, but the witnesses are describing a V-formation that stretched a couple of blocks, one witness said he held his fist up, arm stretched and it couldn't cover the formation, so although the witnesses testimony differ, I want the one that sounds like 32 ft long Tutors in V-formation 20,000 ft high. So if I missed it , please get to the start and end of this equation of yours hopefully short and sweet. If the equation is to long, you're just leaving me more holes to point out. One more point, I've never seen the military or media investigate multiple sightings of dragons and hope you can at least see how ridiculous a relation that is. Have you ever thought of starting a" Dragons are they real?" site?
 
chuck4842 said:
one witness said he held his fist up, arm stretched and it couldn't cover the formation
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This comes out to be about 10 degrees. Something 20,000 feet away would be about 3500 feet across. This is assuming the witness made this measurement at the time in question. However, considering they were flying at night, I would not be surprised to see the pilots spread out a bit in their flight configuration. I have other witnesse statements who state the sky coverage was smaller. The video tape also shows a small FOV.


chuck4842 said:
so although the witnesses testimony differ, I want the one that sounds like 32 ft long Tutors in V-formation 20,000 ft high.
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Prescott AZ - 7 white lights. Binoculars revealed that each light was two (one red and one green). 1000 ft above ground.
Paulden AZ - 4-5 red lights in a V-formation followed by a single light. No noise.
Chino Valley AZ - 5 white lights from NW. Lights went out as they passed over. Passed west of position. Lights moved towards NE of Prescott "Love field" airport.
Prescott Az - 5 yellow-white lights travel from NW to NE and then south. All five covered 1 degree of sky. Lights individual and not single structure.
Tempe Az - 5 red/orange lights, No single object, Lights were separate objects.
Just a few samples from the NUFORC database. Missing are the video tape evidence, Rich Contry's sighting, John Middleton/Larry Campbell, and Rich Stanley, which all directly stated aircraft were involved. I also omitted Mike Fortson's statement about the lights passing in front of the moon and the moon changed color and appeared wavy (like the fumes of a gas can).

chuck4842 said:
One more point, I've never seen the military or media investigate multiple sightings of dragons and hope you can at least see how ridiculous a relation that is. Have you ever thought of starting a" Dragons are they real?" site?
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Really? Is it any more ridiculous than a mile-wide/blocks-wide aircraft that flies low over Phoenix Arizona and a majority of the population does not notice? The evidence for such craft is just as great as the evidence for dragons and witches. It is only ridiculous because you believe in one and not the other. BTW, the military did not investigate this event. The media investigates ghosts. Is that any different than dragons and witches? BTW, the media really did not investigate either. They just reported what people stated. I guess the Discovery channel and Tony Ortega actually investigated but most of the media outlets in Arizona just did some sensationalizing of the event.
 
chuck4842 said:
None. I'm referring to the flare changes, in 1997 they were using LUU something or another according to the AF statement
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They were Luu-2's. The dispenser I listed was used in Kosovo in one source I read, which was only two years later. I am not sure when it was actually first used. However, similar dispensers existed prior to this. The Luu-2 is listed as being expended by the SUU-25 and later in one source I found.
 
RoboTimbo said:
You patience is a thing to behold. It doesn't go unappreciated.
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I appreciate it too...really! And I hope i'm not hurting anybody. I'm sorry Astro- you are the goto guy for me from now on, on this solved subject. I learned alot from you and am very proud to have met you.
 
I hope you don't mind me using your website as a reference, You're right if you assume I didn't look into the reliability…Since March, Arizona military bases said they had nothing in the air that would have caused the mysterious lights seen from Phoenix on March 13. But the bases didn't check visiting aircraft.

That is until they were asked to by Capt. Eileen Bienz, public affairs officer for the Army and Air National Guard. She started a one-woman investigation into the luminaries.

"I had one too many UFO calls," Bienz said. "I said, "I've got to figure this thing out' is what it finally came down to."

What Bienz found out about was Operation Snowbird, which brings in aircraft from bases in the northern United States from November to April. Hence the name.




this is in response to your #213 where you stated "It is only ridiculous because you believe in one and not the other. BTW, the military did not investigate this event. "
 
The Tutors from Canada's AF are nicknamed Snowbirds(responsible for V-formation), and The Warthogs that Lt. Col. Ed Jones flew dropping special flares with now special dispensers during "Operaton Snowbird" happened on the same night. The Kosovo ref. to the new dispensers was in 1999. Yes this does clarify everything , thanks.
 
chuck4842 said:
this is in response to your #213 where you stated "It is only ridiculous because you believe in one and not the other. BTW, the military did not investigate this event. "
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Bienz did it on her own and had nothing to do with the USAF as a whole investigating UFOs. That was what I was referring to when I stated the military did not investigate the case. BTW, Richard Motzer from MUFON was stating they were flares long before the press release. For that he was labeled a "debunker" by his fellow MUFONites.
 
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