The palestinian state we all want.

[The Fool]

That's what you don't get. I want the Palestinian-Arabs to have a state. So does Zenith-Nadir, Skeptic, Webfusion and all the other pro-Israeli posters here.

so whats the catch?

I've heard this many times but it has always ended up a hollow statement because there was always something that meant that it was a great Idea but just not right now.....

so whats the catch?

why not form the state of palestine right now...today? My thoughts are the basics would be defined boundries and no foreign armies inside of those defined boundries.

so whats the catch this time?

 

[Freakshow]

so whats the catch?

I've heard this many times but it has always ended up a hollow statement because there was always something that meant that it was a great Idea but just not right now.....

so whats the catch?

why not form the state of palestine right now...today? My thoughts are the basics would be defined boundries and no foreign armies inside of those defined boundries.

so whats the catch this time?

There is no catch, as far as I'm concerned. I don't understand your point.

 

[Grammatron]

The catch is they have to arrest, prosecute and incarserate terrorists.

That and free ice cream on Thursday.

 

[The Fool]

Re: Re: The palestinian state we all want.

There is no catch, as far as I'm concerned. I don't understand your point.

thats good, you don't see a catch. So how about the borders? where should the borders be? They are well defined where they hit water, except for the jordan river...I believe Israel insists on staying between the Palestinians and the Jordan....Do you think the west bank Palestinians should have the jordan river as a border?

The rest of the borders are with Israel (I don't think the short border with Egypt is in dispute). Can you point me to a map or something where I can find out what the borders of Israel are? I'd even be happy to accept the Israeli version of thier borders...any Ideas on where I can find that out?

and another question....should there be little bits of Israel inside Palestine?

I'm all excited because if what Mycroft says is true we should be able to thrash out in a day or two....

 

[Ryokan]

Israel refuses to accept a Palestine until they are assured that the new state won't attack them, directly or indirectly, i.e. creating a safe haven for anti-Israeli terrorists.

It's a valid concern if you ask me.

 

[The Fool]

The catch is they have to arrest, prosecute and incarserate terrorists.

good...the first catch.

How many? should we expect them to catch the ones the Israelis, with a modern policeforce intelligence network and army can't catch...or is it just assumed that if they are all Palestinians they must be in collusion and can catch each other whenever they like?

 

[Freakshow]

Re: Re: Re: The palestinian state we all want.

thats good, you don't see a catch. So how about the borders? where should the borders be? They are well defined where they hit water, except for the jordan river...I believe Israel insists on staying between the Palestinians and the Jordan....Do you think the west bank Palestinians should have the jordan river as a border?

The rest of the borders are with Israel (I don't think the short border with Egypt is in dispute). Can you point me to a map or something where I can find out what the borders of Israel are? I'd even be happy to accept the Israeli version of thier borders...any Ideas on where I can find that out?

and another question....should there be little bits of Israel inside Palestine?

I'm all excited because if what Mycroft says is true we should be able to thrash out in a day or two....

I may have misinterpreted your original post. Saying "I don't see 'a catch'" is different from saying "I already have this whole thing worked out in my head and know a detailed plan that will work and make everyone happy."

I don't see "a catch", in that I have no moral opposition to there being a Palestinian state in the middle east. That concept is just fine with me. Curiously, some people on this board do seem to have a moral opposition to the concept of there being a Jewish state in the middle east.

Now, as far as hashing out all the specific details...I don't really care at this particular moment. I don't think we are actually going to solve this problem and get it put into action due to our discussions on this forum.

But, if you are interested in just an academic exercise, how about this: the original 1947 plan. You know...the one the Palestinians rejected? Or how about starting with the plan from 2000? You know...the one where instead of making a counter-offer, Arafat walked away and said "Hey, it'd be a lot more fun to watch Jews be killed than to make a serious counter-offer"?

How about those two, as starting points?

 

[Freakshow]

good...the first catch.

How many? should we expect them to catch the ones the Israelis, with a modern policeforce intelligence network and army can't catch...or is it just assumed that if they are all Palestinians they must be in collusion and can catch each other whenever they like?

It would actually be easier for Palestinians to catch them than the Israelis. The same way that one drug dealer knows who the others are, but the police don't seem to know who they all are.

After all, that IS the reason that it was accepted that Arafat had a member of Hamas in his cabinet, wasn't it? That by having a member of Hamas in his cabinet, he could keep a better watch on the terrorists. Wasn't that the point?

Edited to add: I am not implying that all, most, or even a significant number of Palestinians are terrorists. I am saying that there is a relationship between the PA and certain terrorist organizations. I thought it was important to be sure I made that distinction.

 

[webfusion]

catch 22

why not form the state of palestine right now...today?

Why don't the Palestinians declare a state today?
http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0.../edition_id/185/format/html/displaystory.html
article from Friday October 9, 1998

Arafat made dozens of statements that he would announce Palestinian Independence in May of '99 -- yet he didn't do it. Abbas is not about to do it either.

Is it up to Israel to 'form' that state? Why? What possible reason can Israel have to allow yet another official state that sponsors/encourages terror in close proximity to her, today?

Let another few generations go along while living behind the security barrier and then we shall see if their vile hatred and suicidal tendencies are in check.
This generation of Palestinians is certainly so full of venom that they cannot function as a peaceful neighbor to Israel.

 

[The Fool]

Israel refuses to accept a Palestine until they are assured that the new state won't attack them, directly or indirectly, i.e. creating a safe haven for anti-Israeli terrorists.

It's a valid concern if you ask me.

good catch 2....Its the Israelis that prevents it happening because they are not "assured".

how can they be assured?

 

[The Fool]

Re: catch 22

Why don't the Palestinians declare a state today?
http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0.../edition_id/185/format/html/displaystory.html
article from Friday October 9, 1998

Arafat made dozens of statements that he would announce Palestinian Independence in May of '99 -- yet he didn't do it. Abbas is not about to do it either.

Is it up to Israel to 'form' that state? Why? What possible reason can Israel have to allow yet another official state that sponsors/encourages terror in close proximity to her, today?

Let another few generations go along while living behind the security barrier and then we shall see if their vile hatred and suicidal tendencies are in check.
This generation of Palestinians is certainly so full of venom that they cannot function as a peaceful neighbor to Israel.

good point....why not just declare a state....do you think Israel would recognise it and withdraw its army from it? if not, why not?

edited to add...Mycroft has decided you are in favour of a palestinian state....can I modify that to "maybe in a few generations"?

 

[Freakshow]

good catch 2....Its the Israelis that prevents it happening because they are not "assured".

how can they be assured?

One good step would be for the PA to work against terrorist organizations operating in Gaza and the West Bank. As I posted earlier, there was even a member of Hamas on Arafat's cabinet. Does that sound like a "good faith" effort by the PA to put an end to terrorism against Israel?

 

[The Fool]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The palestinian state we all want.

I may have misinterpreted your original post. Saying "I don't see 'a catch'" is different from saying "I already have this whole thing worked out in my head and know a detailed plan that will work and make everyone happy."

I don't see "a catch", in that I have no moral opposition to there being a Palestinian state in the middle east. That concept is just fine with me. Curiously, some people on this board do seem to have a moral opposition to the concept of there being a Jewish state in the middle east.

Now, as far as hashing out all the specific details...I don't really care at this particular moment. I don't think we are actually going to solve this problem and get it put into action due to our discussions on this forum.

But, if you are interested in just an academic exercise, how about this: the original 1947 plan. You know...the one the Palestinians rejected? Or how about starting with the plan from 2000? You know...the one where instead of making a counter-offer, Arafat walked away and said "Hey, it'd be a lot more fun to watch Jews be killed than to make a serious counter-offer"?

How about those two, as starting points?

fine, we shall use those two as starting points, any starting point you like....so do you have a proposal for borders or will you be content to just critique my suggested borders?

You need to help me out with the borders a bit....what is it with the Jordan river? Israel doesn't want palestine to border on it...I can't figure it out ...do you know why?

 

[Freakshow]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The palestinian state we all want.

fine, we shall use those two as starting points, any starting point you like....so do you have a proposal for borders or will you be content to just critique my suggested borders?

You need to help me out with the borders a bit....what is it with the Jordan river? Israel doesn't want palestine to border on it...I can't figure it out ...do you know why?

I have an idea...Arafat wouldn't make a counter-offer in 2000. How about if you make the counter-offer for him? Sorry to put you i nhis company, but you'll just have to excuse me for that. I don't mean to imply anything.

I think that would be a good starting point. I can then satisfy one of your options of critiquing your suggested borders.

 

[Grammatron]

good...the first catch.

How many? should we expect them to catch the ones the Israelis, with a modern policeforce intelligence network and army can't catch...or is it just assumed that if they are all Palestinians they must be in collusion and can catch each other whenever they like?

Yes, exactly like that. And it must answer to Israel too.

Meanwhile in the real world, I think they are doing just that right now.

 

[The Fool]

One good step would be for the PA to work against terrorist organizations operating in Gaza and the West Bank. As I posted earlier, there was even a member of Hamas on Arafat's cabinet. Does that sound like a "good faith" effort by the PA to put an end to terrorism against Israel?

They work against them now....is it fair to say you mean "work against them more than they are".....you were aware that the PA and Hamas have been shooting at each other dont you?

How would you like to get home from a firefight and be told you were not working against those guys?

 

[The Fool]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The palestinian state we all want.

I have an idea...Arafat wouldn't make a counter-offer in 2000. How about if you make the counter-offer for him? Sorry to put you i nhis company, but you'll just have to excuse me for that. I don't mean to imply anything.

I think that would be a good starting point. I can then satisfy one of your options of critiquing your suggested borders.

well my first requiremnent for a nation would be the absence of the occupying army, internal checkpoints and the rest of the things that go along with occupation.....do you see that as unreasonable?

 

[Freakshow]

They work against them now....is it fair to say you mean "work against them more than they are".....you were aware that the PA and Hamas have been shooting at each other dont you?

How would you like to get home from a firefight and be told you were not working against those guys?

Yes, but that is a recent phenomenon. I remember once Arafat had many terrorists arrested, said "See, I'm arresting terrorists!", then had them released a short time later. It will take more time to see that PA is sincere and committed to this effort.

Note that is isn't one of MY requirements. I was answering someone else's post from earlier.

That will probably be all the posting from me today. Getting tired. Can still read, but thinking and typing is getting difficult.

 

[The Fool]

Yes, exactly like that. And it must answer to Israel too.

Meanwhile in the real world, I think they are doing just that right now.

Hmmmm, can I ask what "answer to israel means" I sort of think it means no nation.....is that a fair assumption? You don't have to join mycrofts list of people that supports the creation of a palestinian nation if you don't want to. you could even join the "ok, but not for at least a couple of generations" ticket ....

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
why not form the state of palestine right now...today? My thoughts are the basics would be defined boundries and no foreign armies inside of those defined boundries.

so whats the catch this time?

That's a great question. Why don't they form their state and stop launching rockets? Is there some "catch" stopping them?

Personally, I don't know what the Palestinians think their "catch" is, why they won't stop killing people long enough to set up a legal system, or figure out some way to disburse all that foreign aid other than paying off graft to some crony. Maybe they need a few fewer guns and a few more graduates of law school.

Which is the point. You know that thing where the teenage Palestinian girl sneaks a bomb past the checkpoint so she can blow up the very same Israeli children's hospital where she had been recieving treatment? That's not about nationalism, that's just about killing people.

Originally posted by The Fool
good...the first catch.

How many?

You do realize that just one would be an improvement, don't you? Don't you think it's kinda disengenuous to whine that they can't catch as many as Israel because they don't have the resources when they've never even tried to get any?