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The Official UK Election Thread! 6th May it is!

Did I say it was completely unjustified to regard her as bigoted? I said she didn't say anything outrageous. No foam-flecked rants or anything like that. She was an ordinary voter. Gordon Brown is the PM. He's supposed to hold himself to higher standards than that. Rolfe.
By that token, Brown's response was hardly foam-flecked either; after muttering darkly about how the encounter played out he produced a rather resigned "Ach, she's just a bigoted old lady".
 
Well, yes. I heard a radio programme this morning describing this as proof that Brown loses his temper and throws things when interviews go badly, but I didn't hear him either lose his temper or throw anything.

However, these thing can grow legs of their own, and after the story has run for a bit it becomes about what the media have decided he did, rather than what he actually did.

Rolfe.
 
I don't like what she said, but I don't think it was anything she had no right to say if that was her opinion. If it has been some foam-flecked BNP rant, it would have been different, maybe, but it so obviously wasn't.

Rolfe.

I'd say most bigotry is not expressed by the foam-flecked amongst us, bigotry is often presented in the most sweet and reasonable tones with a fine veneer of politeness.
 
There's a lot of truth in what you say, but these people are not going to be turned to the light by calling them "bigoted old women". It's only going to upset them and hurt them and make them even more entrenched in their views.

Rolfe.
 
Did I say it was completely unjustified to regard her as bigoted? I said she didn't say anything outrageous. No foam-flecked rants or anything like that. She was an ordinary voter. Gordon Brown is the PM. He's supposed to hold himself to higher standards than that.

Rolfe.

You don't think it was outrageous? I do. I think that it was a disgusting opinion held by an old woman so clearly out of touch with reality that she can't tell what colour grass is.

Just because it's a widely held disgusting opinion doesn't make it any less shameful that someone holds this opinion. We need better political education in this country for everyone. People need to be taught how immigration works and what effect it has, how the NHS is run, how taxation works, all on a fairly basic level, but still there. Anyone who states that they aren't interested? Remove their right to vote.

I want an informed electorate, not a bigoted and ignorant one.
 
There's a lot of truth in what you say, but these people are not going to be turned to the light by calling them "bigoted old women". It's only going to upset them and hurt them and make them even more entrenched in their views.

But to be honest do you genuinely think there is any aproach that would get such a person to change their views?
 
[....snip....]
I want an informed electorate, not a bigoted and ignorant one.


Yeah, and I want world peace and universal happiness.

Of course it was a bigoted outlook. But it wasn't a foam-flecked BNP rant. If he can't handle that sort of voter, he needs a refresher course.

Rolfe.
 
But to be honest do you genuinely think there is any aproach that would get such a person to change their views?


Yes, I think there probably is, but it's not going to happen in a conversation with the PM. It's going to be a gradual process of seeing immigrants as people and friends.

Rolfe.
 
Yeah, and I want world peace and universal happiness.

Of course it was a bigoted outlook. But it wasn't a foam-flecked BNP rant. If he can't handle that sort of voter, he needs a refresher course.

Rolfe.

Who says he can't handle it? It's not like he spat in her face, smashed her head over the car bonnet before proceeding to urinate over her twitching corpse. He simply got into his car, turned to his aide and called her a bigot.

Wouldn't you?
 
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If he can't handle that sort of voter, he needs a refresher course.

By all accounts he did handle it and very well while in public. He just expressed his personal opinion of the old bat in private when she was safely out of earshot. Or not.
 
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Well sort of yes. But my main criticism is his insistence that he shouldn't have been required to meet such a person.

They should never have put me with that woman. Whose idea was that?


He's too important to have to encounter such a low-life.

Rolfe.
 
it wasn't a foam-flecked BNP rant
Rolfe.

No, it was much, much worse.

Why do you ask? Because she's just an ordinary voter, an average Joanne Bloggs, and she plays quite well into the "sweet old lady" that the media will be willing to cast her as to score more points. I find that when the BNP scream from the rooftops that immigrants are taking over the country that most people will point and laugh or just ignore them. They aren't really of any consequence when it comes to bringing in voters because most people know exactly what they are. They never ever get that many votes, and generally speaking the fact that we have BNP elected MEP's and councillors is due to the fact that the Nazi's will come out to vote whatever, whereas normal people are being turned away, or were at least.

No, the BNP aren't very good at gaining support for their horrific ideas. Women like this are exceptional, however. It's this more insidious bigotry that is the bigger danger. The assumption that because she's a die-hard Labour voter and a harmless old woman that she isn't someone with dangerous views. She will be listened to, and people may start nodding along with her, because they think that she is one of them. This kind of incident is far far more damaging to anti-extremist stances than any number of Nick Griffin clones screeching about the Jews taking our money and the Muslims blowing us up.

People like this need to be countered far more than the BNP, because your average person is more likely to listen to them.
 
Well, in that case you'll be heartened by Brown's private and unguarded opinion being that she is indeed a bigoted woman. Which was really quite a positive aspect of this whole affair.

Rolfe.
 
Well, in that case you'll be heartened by Brown's private and unguarded opinion being that she is indeed a bigoted woman. Which was really quite a positive aspect of this whole affair.

Rolfe.

Yes, my respect for the man shot up. It could only have made him seem better if he had challenged the woman while he was with her.
 
He didn't do so badly when he was with her. He pointed out that as many Britons go to Europe as European immigrants come here, which was a good start and probably as far as it was reasonable to go in that sort of encounter.

Rolfe.
 
Well sort of yes. But my main criticism is his insistence that he shouldn't have been required to meet such a person.


They should never have put me with that woman. Whose idea was that?

He's too important to have to encounter such a low-life.

Rolfe.

I think you're being a bit harsh there. This was a conversation held very publicly as part of an election campaign, and these things are supposed to have been stage-managed to make Gordon Brown look good. It seems to me that he's complaining, not that she's unworthy of his attention, but that the management of the event was at fault for putting him in a situation where he ended up looking bad. I'm absolutely certain that, had his campaign managers found a homeless person with mental health issues who nevertheless felt that her lot had improved significantly over the last few years, Gordon Brown would not have felt such a person beneath his notice.

Dave
 
I'm absolutely certain that, had his campaign managers found a homeless person with mental health issues who nevertheless felt that her lot had improved significantly over the last few years, Gordon Brown would not have felt such a person beneath his notice.

Dave

What, you mean some psycho layabout sponging off of honest taxpayers? :jaw-dropp

;)
 
I just got back from a local debate that was at least partially on science.

I've come to the opinion that my MP David Tredinnick is not a vapid moron who has no understanding of how anything works.

He's a vile lying disgusting piece of filth who happens to be a vapid moron who has no understanding of how anything works.

Here's a New Scientist report on last night's battle for Bosworth:

http://tinyurl.com/2c2qju5


I've been following the travails of Science Party candidate Dr Brooks via Twitter.
(@DrMichaelBrooks)
 
I didn't watch the TV debate last night, because instead I drove to the county town 13 miles away to attend a local hustings meeting. This is actually the first time I've done that, and it was extremely interesting. All six candidates were there, getting equal treatment, and the moderator was a member of the local church group which had organised it.

The UKIP candidate was a disaster. A train wreck. He had no clue. He didn't have coherent answers to many of the questions. Very early in the proceedings he announced that the main reason to withdraw from Europe was immigration, and that when Turkey was railroaded in there would be x million more people flooding into Britain - of a different religion, even. To the audience's credit, he was greeted with hissing, and cries of "shame".

A little later he made a special intervention to tell us that the reason he would never support proportional representation is that this was the electoral system that had elected Adolf Hitler. This blatant piece of Godwinning simply provoked general laughter. However, the undercurrent wasn't quite so funny. We have PR for the Scottish parliament, and when Alex Salmond became First Minister three years ago under that system, he was compared to Hitler by some commentators for exactly that reason.

The Green candidate was quite young, and a one-trick pony. She was also a poor speaker, and seemed unable to address the substance of many of the questions. Everything came back to abolishing nuclear weapons, as if she was the only candidate standing on that platform, which of course she wasn't. She failed to show a coherent grasp even of energy conservation and renewables, which was a bit sad.

The SNP candidate was the only one I know personally. She didn't make any especial gaffes, but again she wasn't as good a speaker as she might have been, and she missed quite a lot of tricks. She answered questions in a general way, rather than dissecting the issue at a local level. Several times I felt I could have formulated and delivered better replies, without any preparation. [There is a reason for this. The seat isn't a target, and is very unlikely to be won, so what is required is someone local who is able and willing to put in the effort of fighting the seat for no expected return. This covers UKIP and the Greens as well of course. What makes it worse in the SNP's case is that this party promotes nearly all its potential stars into the Scottish parliament, leaving non-target Westminster seats short of talent. Our real local talent will be wheeled out next year at the Scottish elections, and has a good chance of taking the seat.]

However, the voting patterns in the constituency are such that all the three main UK parties could be seen as in with a chance. It's a Conservative seat at present, Labour held it until 2005, and the LibDems have history. All should have been fielding potential MPs.

The Labour candidate was a disappointment. She wasn't a very good speaker, and also failed to tackle many of the questions effectively. She almost seemed to be distancing herself from the present Westminster government. In spite of Labour having been second here in 2005, and having held the seat before that, I got the strong impression they weren't trying to regain the seat. This was reinforced by the almost total absence of election material coming through my letter box from that party. Odd. At one point she gaffed by speaking in such a way that it was clear she envisaged herself still being in her teaching job after the election. She gave me no sense at all of why we should want to retain the Labour government, or what the country would be like if we did.

The Conservative candidate was also surprisingly poor, considering that he's the incumbent MP. He tried to put across party policy, but not terribly effectively. He wasn't at all likeable. I can absolutely see why he isn't even being considered as a possible Secretary of State for Scotland, despite being the only Conservative MP in Scotland at the moment. This is the party of Rifkind and Lang and Fairbairn, how did this nonentity get under the wire? I understand that last time round there was a lot of tactical voting to get rid of the Labour MP, and I wonder if this guy got elected by mistake? I think he might fail to hold this time round.

I'm no fan of the LibDems, and I wouldn't trust this particular candidate as far as I could throw her, for a number of reasons. However, having said that, in this company she stood out as by far the best performer on the night. She spoke well, with an excellent grasp of party policy and its relevance to the question. She went into detail, without becoming tedious. She dissected the question and the answer down to local relevance. She came over as likeable. Several times she gave the answer I myself had formulated for the particular question. She didn't gaffe.

Of course she was riding high on the Clegg effect, and she was also impeccably trained. She's the daughter of a former LibDem leader, for goodness sake. She also didn't have any really quality opposition. However, she was the only one, on the performance in that hall, who seemed to have what it takes to be a competent MP. I won't be voting for her, obviously, but if I had been a floating voter it would have been no contest.

The thing is, though, there couldn't have been more than 200 people in that hall, and a good third of them would have been already-committed party supporters. A tiny, tiny fraction of the number of people who would be sitting at home in front of their TV screens watching the leaders' debate. The chance to influence the actual poll was fairly minimal.

I heard this morning though, that a similar meeting in the neighbouring constituency had been broadcast on local radio. Again, that probably didn't offer much competition to the TV debate. However, I wonder if the increasing fragmentation of broadcasting and the ease of availability of video technology will get us to the point where local candidates' debates are televised and more widely accessible?

We need quality candidates to make quality MPs, and without quality MPs how will Westminster ever recover from the repeated scandals? Labour lost the 1988 Govan by-election at a local hustings meeting, because they'd pinned the red rosette on a donkey who didn't know anything about EU policy on the regions in response to a question, and Sillars ran rings round him. Of course that got publicity, being a by-election, and Gillespie was toast.

At present the emphasis is on the groomed and briefed leaders, rather than the bods of variable competence vying to be the actual MPs. I wonder if that will intensify, with elections becoming more presidential, or if the local element will reassert itself?

Rolfe.
 

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