The NORAD 9/11 Response

[Peephole]

Thanks, I was pretty confused by the difference in yours and the Commission's version of events.

 

[Panhead56]

Great timeline!
I would just like to add a comment. I think the guys (and gals?) at Norad did great, when you take into account all the (mis)information they received the first hour.
I do also believe the "what if the F-15/16s had got there in time?" is a moot question. Because, what if a F-15 had just intercepted AA11, lets say 5 miles (aprox. 1 min.) from Manhatten. What then? Would the pilot or NORAD really shoot down a civilian jetliner? Thereby killing the passengers and probably a great many people on the ground. This was still pre 9/11. I dont' think so.

This have probably been discussed before, but when you are new to the forum, you gotta post!

 

[gumboot]

Great timeline!
I would just like to add a comment. I think the guys (and gals?) at Norad did great, when you take into account all the (mis)information they received the first hour.
I do also believe the "what if the F-15/16s had got there in time?" is a moot question. Because, what if a F-15 had just intercepted AA11, lets say 5 miles (aprox. 1 min.) from Manhatten. What then? Would the pilot or NORAD really shoot down a civilian jetliner? Thereby killing the passengers and probably a great many people on the ground. This was still pre 9/11. I dont' think so.

This have probably been discussed before, but when you are new to the forum, you gotta post!

You're very right, of course. It's very clear from the NEADS tapes that they did not receive permission to use force until after UA93 had crashed.

Even had an intercept been achieved, the pilots would have merely followed 5 miles behind the airliners and watched as they hit their targets.

-Gumboot

 

[Kiwiwriter]

Nice work, Gumboot

I'm bookmarking this file, so that I can answer Twoofers better.

 

[The Demon's Head]

I would like to add to this thread that for fighter jets to shoot down a hostile aircraft is a last resort. A mass confusion was NORAD's problem, they didn't stand down or whatever the twoofers say. 9/11 was unprecedented, and NORAD didn't know how to handle a situation they've never been in before.

 

[gumboot]

I would like to add to this thread that for fighter jets to shoot down a hostile aircraft is a last resort. A mass confusion was NORAD's problem, they didn't stand down or whatever the twoofers say. 9/11 was unprecedented, and NORAD didn't know how to handle a situation they've never been in before.

I don't agree with that assessment.

The FAA was NORAD's problem. Or at least, the standard proceedures for the FAA were NORAD's problem. Secondarily, lack of resources was NORAD's problem.

I thought NORAD did an exemplary job of running with the punches and improvising. I thought they handled the situation perfectly.

NEADS could run the 9/11 scenario again 10,000 times and the end result would be identical every single time. There is absolutely no way they could have intercepted any of the flights, with the information they had.

-Gumboot

 

[The Demon's Head]

I don't agree with that assessment.

The FAA was NORAD's problem. Or at least, the standard proceedures for the FAA were NORAD's problem. Secondarily, lack of resources was NORAD's problem.

I thought NORAD did an exemplary job of running with the punches and improvising. I thought they handled the situation perfectly.

NEADS could run the 9/11 scenario again 10,000 times and the end result would be identical every single time. There is absolutely no way they could have intercepted any of the flights, with the information they had.

-Gumboot

I'm not suprised you don't agree.

You seem to be an expert in this field of the CT's.

 

[gumboot]

I'm not suprised you don't agree.

You seem to be an expert in this field of the CT's.

I'm an Air Force brat, what can I say?

It comes back to an over-arching philosophy I have on 9/11 however.

It seems to me that it's very easy and natural for Americans to put 9/11 down to government incompetence.

I have a slightly different take on it. I don't think the government was incompetent. I think there were three key aspects that produced 9/11.

The first I see as American Arrogance. The firm confidence Americans have in their military and defence capabilities. That's a well-founded confidence - their capabilities are impressive. But it's easy to get complacant and let "impressive" become "invunerable". The CIA had too much confidence in their ability to outsmart the enemy. Policy makers had too much confidence in the impossibility of terrorists attacking the US on home soil. Government had too much confidence that any likely attacks would be detected before they occured.

The second, I see as a failure to respect the enemy.
It's the whole "terrorists in caves", "a few radical extremists" kind of angle. It's wrong. Painfully wrong. Al Qaeda have a massive support base across enormous numbers of countries. Strong enough support to provide thousands of willing foot soldiers? No. Strong enough support to provide millions of dollars in funds? You better believe it. Al Qaeda members were part of the force that defeated the Soviet Army - the same army that ground two entire Wehrmacht armies and four allied armies to dust at Stalingrad. Al Qaeda were smart, well resourced, dedicated, experienced, and patient.

After 9/11 the US Military were shaken. They were so fearful of facing the same fate as the Soviets that they backed out of the fight at Tora Bora, allowing Al Qaeda to escape.

Lastly, there's one for factor that I think was the single most important factor that allowed 9/11 to happen. It was not politics, nor was it incompetence, nor evil neocon agendas. I like to call it "Americanism".

American is the "land of freedom". For all that the world (including many Americans!) sneer at this title, in many ways its true. Americans love freedom. More than any other people I have ever known. I don't mean the intangible ideal of freedom that you get in speeches. I mean REAL freedom. Easy movement through the country. Not having to jump through hoops to get on an airliner. The freedom and lack of interference that they get as they move from one state to another, going about their lives. They enjoy being able to choose their own news source and express their opinions without threat. This is all real tangible observable freedom.

And they like sharing it with the world. Every day thousands of people from across the globe cross their borders. They extend that freedom to the visitors and newcomers without hesitation. They don't track foreigners in their country. They don't restrict their movements. Their checks at the borders are soft and welcoming, because that's how the world should be.

Ultimately, it was their love of this freedom that allowed 9/11 to happen. They trusted the world. They welcomed it. And it bit them.

It's funny. America isn't very well thought of in New Zealand. Growing up, with my father's military books, the only thing I really thought about the USA was that they made awesome war machines. It wasn't that I loved their values or their politics or their culture. I loved their aircraft carriers, their F-14 Tomcats, their Abrams tanks...

But since I began researching 9/11 I've come to admire the USA and what is was until September 11. Rigourous legal systems are not something to be ashamed of. They are something to be proud of. American arrogance has already been tempered by 9/11, by Afghanistan, and by Iraq. As for the last. Their freedom.

Obviously it's not the same place that it was before 9/11. Some of it is just a backlash response to the attacks, some of it is an adjustment to the realisation that the world is a nasty dangerous place. I am sure over time things will settle down. Will America again embrace the level of real tangible freedom that it once had? Or will that be relegated to Presidential speeches? Only time will tell. But I have confidence that the Americans will live up to their self-claimed title as the bastion of free man. The waiting times at airports will shrink. The border checks will become friendlier and less intrusive. Foreigners will again be welcomed openly.

Until next time.

-Gumboot