The New Contract on America

Matabiri said:
Why do you think you'd have the Patriot Act, but not a response in Afghanistan?

I'm interested: as I see it, the Patriot Act is a far larger step in civil liberties terms than Afghanistan was in military terms (if you see what I mean), and is definitely a product of this administration. I'd have thought it would be the other way round, given the international climate after the attacks.

The Patriot Act is a product of Congress, not this Administration. Take at look at the vote in the House and Senate. I don't recall the exact House vote, but the Senate vote had 99 votes in favor of it. 99. A clear, bipartisan, knee-jerk response to 9/11.

Gore may or may not have invaded Afghanistan. He may have just lobbed a few missiles and called it good. He certainly would have been making his decisions based on the mood of the U.N., which means no invasion of Iraq for sure.
 
Luke T. said:
He [Gore] certainly would have been making his decisions based on the mood of the U.N., which means no invasion of Iraq for sure.
Here here!!
 
Luke T. said:
The Patriot Act is a product of Congress, not this Administration. Take at look at the vote in the House and Senate. I don't recall the exact House vote, but the Senate vote had 99 votes in favor of it. 99. A clear, bipartisan, knee-jerk response to 9/11.

Very true and a good example of why people need to keep in mind that who they put in Congress is as important as who they put int he White House. A fact that is often overlooked, IMO. But Bush doesn't get off Scot-free either. He could have vetoed it, if he had the stones. Gore may or may not have done the same thing, since we don't have a machine to see alternate timelines, we may never know.

Luke T. said:
Gore may or may not have invaded Afghanistan. He may have just lobbed a few missiles and called it good. He certainly would have been making his decisions based on the mood of the U.N., which means no invasion of Iraq for sure.

Once again, see my last sentence above. Also I would call no invasion of Iraq a good thing. I don't see where a single good thing has come out of the invasion.
 
Luke T. said:
The Patriot Act is a product of Congress, not this Administration. Take at look at the vote in the House and Senate. I don't recall the exact House vote, but the Senate vote had 99 votes in favor of it. 99. A clear, bipartisan, knee-jerk response to 9/11.

Reading the legislative history of the Patriot Act it's clear that, yes, the Patriot Act was a product of Congress, but pressure from the Bush administration - particularly Ashcroft - resulted in it giving far more power to Ashcroft than was intended.

"The administration proposal, however, went much farther. It called for indefinite detention of any noncitizen the attorney general "has reason to believe may further or facilitate acts of terrorism," as well as the unrestricted sharing of grand jury and eavesdropping data throughout the government. It permitted Internet service providers or employers to voluntarily allow the FBI to tap e-mail. And it made a small but important modification to the FISA law, changing the legal language so foreign intelligence had to be only "a" purpose of an investigation, rather than "the" purpose, to secure surveillance authority...

... "There were a lot of people in the room, both Republican and Democrat," Leahy says, "who were not about to give the unfettered power the attorney general wanted."

Armey also warned that it might take a few weeks to adopt a bill. In effect, he was urging Ashcroft to back away from his public pressure to approve a law in the next few days...

... Ashcroft's support was critical to the bill's approval. The Senate and Bush administration had agreed to deliver a proposal together, and the process could not go forward without Ashcroft's imprimatur..."

Senate vote was 96-1.

Gore may or may not have invaded Afghanistan. He may have just lobbed a few missiles and called it good. He certainly would have been making his decisions based on the mood of the U.N., which means no invasion of Iraq for sure.

The invasion of Iraq was not connected to terrorism.
 
Matabiri said:
The invasion of Iraq was not connected to terrorism.

The invasion of Iraq is connected to terrorism indirectly. 9/11 raised our willingness to handle threats pre-emptively.
 
Luke T. said:
The invasion of Iraq is connected to terrorism indirectly. 9/11 raised our willingness to handle threats pre-emptively.

Which might be a good excuse, if Iraq were a threat.
 
Luke, the facts regarding the separation of church and state in this country are clear. The idea of religion is, none the less, a very powerful one, and many people use religions terms to communicate strong feelings, even those among us who are flat-out atheists. It's a question of communications.

The fact that statues, etc, appear in various government buildings neither shows the intentions and motivations of the founders, who acted long before the statues and buildings, nor justifies the present misbehavior in attempting to dishonestly and traitorously inject religion into the government.

"In God We Trust" was introduced by another good repugnican, Joe McCarthy, during another period of national hysteria, and passed by another repugnican government.

The republicans have, for some time now, acted directly opposite the intentions and written word of the founders. George Bush (daddy) showed that this was intentional with his insulting suggestion that "atheists are neither patriots nor good americans, this is one nation under god" comments during his own campaign.

As far as the scientific method being how this country assumed power, there is absolutely no doubt or debate. That's how it happened. The tradition of understanding of secular things like gears, motors, water mills, etc, started this country to its position of world dominance, and the continued research, culminating in things like Edison's lab, Bell Labs, and the like, are how it continued and grew.

All of those people and institutions, regardless of their religious nature, had one criterion for mechanisms, that being "does it work". When this country was founded, the philosophical basis for the scientific method was in its infancy. As the method evolved, so did the work of science, including the recognition of science as primary, and religion as irrelevant, to lawmaking.

Now, we fast forward to the 1950's and 1960's, wherein many changes happened, both to the educational system (where the scientific method was effectively thrown out) and to the political system (where "scare tactics" became a way to overcome the wisdom of prior generations), and we got "in god we trust". From there, the government has attempted to push more religious issues into government policy, witness the foolish restrictions on overseas medical funds, the insistance on "only teach abstinence" (yes, it's the best way, but insisting on that is a simple denial of the medical scienc eof the matter), the legislation effectively halting stem-cell research, using a heap of quackery and nonsense to justify the claim "we have enough', and so on.

It's simple, really, we stand at a crossroads. Do we enter a new religious dark ages like the present Republicans would have us do, give up the tools that made us great, destroy our ability to defend ourselves, heal ourselves, and add value for trade in the process of giving up exactly the scientific method that made us great in the first place, or do we not do that?

That's where we stand. Your argument about "the will of the people" is exactly and precisely stating that you wish to ensure your will over minorities. In that, you are little better than the person who wants black people to move to the back of the bus. The situation really is quite similar, you know, atheists aren't very welcome in elections, atheists can't be "patriots or good americans" (the former President has said so, after all, ex cathedra), there are a variety of attacks on atheists every Sunday from pulpits, atheists are blamed by widely circulated hatemongers, along with other non-majority types like gays and wiccans, for 9/11, that being the "wrath of god" instead of the scientific conclusion, a failure of intellegence brougth about by infighting between government agencies, an infighting that was encouraged by decades of government from both sides of the aisle, and so on...

9/11 is, in some ways, an example of what happens when policy trumps the scientific method. It's a symptom, alright, of us abandoning what made us great.

Luke, you have to take your stand. Do you support the dictatorship of the majority, or do you support freedom? That's not a false dichotomy, Luke. When you say "the will of the majority" you speak the very idea that the founders tried to mitigate.
 
jj said:
If you want to be a civil-behavior cop, cop to Lister, his stalking, and his repeated, unresearched accusations that I'm lying, or look at some of Crimresearch's failed questions, etc.

The difference between me and a "cop" is that a "cop" has authority, I only have my opinion...

If anything I see it worthwhile to point out incivility in those with opinions similar to mine, more so than those that are opposite, as perhaps I am more likely to have an influence--one wouldn't think I was whining about politeness just because I disagreed...

I'm very serious about it, I think that a polite voice is a stronger voice.
 
gnome said:
I'm very serious about it, I think that a polite voice is a stronger voice.

I understand that you conclude (or believe, your choice) that.

I suggest that you consider (and, no, I am not being sarcastic or anything like that, only sincere) that we (you, I) look at how Mr. Bush got elected first time around.

I very much wish your statement was correct.
 
Luke T. said:
"under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance? Well, I have news for you. Bush didn't put that in there. And if it is the will of the people for it to remain, who is he to differ?
Luke, not that it matters (much) to me if the words are there, but is your statement here really in line with the constitution?
 
DanishDynamite said:
Slightly off topic, but why are both candidates "disgusting"? Sure, from a European viewpoint they are both right wing, but even I wouldn't characterize either as disgusting.
Well, both support religious bigotry.
 
jj said:
"In God We Trust" was introduced by another good repugnican, Joe McCarthy, during another period of national hysteria, and passed by another repugnican government.



The quote was used on coins since the 1860's.
 
Art Vandelay said:
Does the phrase "In God We Trust" appear in the pledge?
You're correct. We're talking, or should be, about "under god".

Of course, the idea remains the same.

Now, do you have any response to the evidence of traitorous behavior on the part of the RNC?
 
Luke T. said:
The invasion of Iraq is connected to terrorism indirectly. 9/11 raised our willingness to handle threats pre-emptively.

It perhaps raised the Bush administration's willingness to handle threats pre-emptively, but not necessarily the rest of the country. I certainly don't remember hearing that debate in the weeks before the war. All I heard was 'WMD'.
 
rhoadp said:
It perhaps raised the Bush administration's willingness to handle threats pre-emptively, but not necessarily the rest of the country. I certainly don't remember hearing that debate in the weeks before the war. All I heard was 'WMD'.

But surely you remember the last State of the Union adress where Bush clearly stated that the war had nothing to do with WMD, it was about taking out an Evil Dictatortm. Anyone who claims otherwise is trying to revise history.

It was about bringing freedom and Democracy to Iraq...

Yeah, that's the ticket:D
 

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