The New Contract on America

Nyarlathotep said:
I see both candidates and the vast majority of politicians as deserving of the word 'disgusting' or worse.

Mark Twain is reputed to have said like, 'Politics is a lot like sausage, you might like the end result but you don't want to see either one being made'

Mr. Twain was right on the money, in my opinion.
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The problem, Nyarlathotep, with this view is that it is a glib, useless and self-incriminating attitude. You live in a democracy (oh alright a C.L.R) and if you are unhappy with the current candidates, you can become one yourself. If you don't, then you get the choices you deserve.
 
DanishDynamite said:
The problem, Nyarlathotep, with this view is that it is a glib, useless and self-incriminating attitude. You live in a democracy (oh alright a C.L.R) and if you are unhappy with the current candidates, you can become one yourself. If you don't, then you get the choices you deserve.
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Politics is a field that rewards people for having no sense of ethics or morals. In politcs, those things are liabilities and if you have them, the guy that doesn't will cream you come election time. I don't see it as being a useless attitude, merely a realistic one.

Sure, someone like me could run for office, in theory, but they would have no realistic chance of winning. I might not like it, but I have no choice to lump it with the many other things I hate about society that I am powerless to change.
 
Nyarlathotep said:
Politics is a field that rewards people for having no sense of ethics or morals. In politcs, those things are liabilities and if you have them, the guy that doesn't will cream you come election time. I don't see it as being a useless attitude, merely a realistic one.

Sure, someone like me could run for office, in theory, but they would have no realistic chance of winning. I might not like it, but I have no choice to lump it with the many other things I hate about society that I am powerless to change.
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While I can sympathize somewhat with your view, I'll just quote old Churchhill: "Democracy is the worst type of government, except for all the others".

In other words, do you have a better alternative?
 
DanishDynamite said:
While I can sympathize somewhat with your view, I'll just quote old Churchhill: "Democracy is the worst type of government, except for all the others".

In other words, do you have a better alternative?
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Nope, but I never claimed I did. I was merely justifying calling the candidates 'disgusting'. Unfortunately, someone has to be in charge and run things, but that doesn't mean it is a good idea to like the swine that would aspire to BE in charge.

Democracy is all well and good, but trusting the government is a recipe for disaster, imo. Remember, candidates for political office are people who WANT to be in power over you. DO you think it is ever a good idea to trust the motives of anyone who wants tht and ahs made it his life's goal to acheive that? I don't
 
Nyarlathotep said:
Nope, but I never claimed I did. I was merely justifying calling the candidates 'disgusting'.
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Yes, but if you won't run for office yourself and you don't have an alternative system of determining who gets into office, then I don't really see much substance in your grumblings.

Unfortunately, someone has to be in charge and run things, but that doesn't mean it is a good idea to like the swine that would aspire to BE in charge.
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But the point is that someone must be in charge. If you won't work within the system to get a candidate on the list that you would like, you won't run yourself and you don't have any ideas for an alternative system, then your derisive attitude towards politicians in general is just unjustified grumbling.

Democracy is all well and good, but trusting the government is a recipe for disaster, imo. Remember, candidates for political office are people who WANT to be in power over you. DO you think it is ever a good idea to trust the motives of anyone who wants tht and ahs made it his life's goal to acheive that? I don't
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Sure, they are people who will have achieve that power if they are elected, but they are also the ones who are willing to take on that responsibility.
 
Luke T. said:
Doom! Doooooom! DOOOOOOOMMMMMM!
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Indeed. I'm glad you understand what the problem is. Now, have you changed your mind?
 
DanishDynamite said:
Yes, but if you won't run for office yourself and you don't have an alternative system of determining who gets into office, then I don't really see much substance in your grumblings.


But the point is that someone must be in charge. If you won't work within the system to get a candidate on the list that you would like, you won't run yourself and you don't have any ideas for an alternative system, then your derisive attitude towards politicians in general is just unjustified grumbling.
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There isn't much substance in someone grumbling about the weather either. That doesn't stop me, and most people I know from doing so. There is about as much that I can do about one as the other. Sometimes, griping and b!tching is all one can do.

(note: if you say that people don't grumble about the weather in Denmark, I will hit you.:hit: ;) )


DanishDynamite said:
Sure, they are people who will have achieve that power if they are elected, but they are also the ones who are willing to take on that responsibility.
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But can you really trust someone who wants power over you? I can't. And besides, I would rather be pleasantly surprised if a politician doesn't turn out to be half the scumbag I thought him to be than to find out he was twice the scumbag I thought him to be. The only way to pull tht off is to never underestimate the depths of a polticians scumbag potential. Safer that way, too.
 
Nyarlathotep said:
But can you really trust someone who wants power over you? I can't. And besides, I would rather be pleasantly surprised if a politician doesn't turn out to be half the scumbag I thought him to be than to find out he was twice the scumbag I thought him to be. The only way to pull tht off is to never underestimate the depths of a polticians scumbag potential. Safer that way, too.
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I think it was Alistair Campbell, scumbag extraordinaire, who said that when people meet politicians, they're usually pleasantly surprised, but when they meet journalists, they're usually disappointed.

His background was, of course, journalism...
 
Nyarlathotep said:
There isn't much substance in someone grumbling about the weather either. That doesn't stop me, and most people I know from doing so. There is about as much that I can do about one as the other. Sometimes, griping and b!tching is all one can do.

(note: if you say that people don't grumble about the weather in Denmark, I will hit you.:hit: ;) )
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In Denmark, no one ever grumbles about the wea...OUCH!
:)
But can you really trust someone who wants power over you? I can't. And besides, I would rather be pleasantly surprised if a politician doesn't turn out to be half the scumbag I thought him to be than to find out he was twice the scumbag I thought him to be. The only way to pull tht off is to never underestimate the depths of a polticians scumbag potential. Safer that way, too.
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I can't implicitly trust anyone. But there needs to be a system of government (unless you are an anarchist). Luckily, you and I live in democracies which means there are built in checks and balances to stop the abuse of power.
 
jj said:
Indeed. I'm glad you understand what the problem is. Now, have you changed your mind?
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Changed my mind? I'd have to know what it is you expect to occur in the next four years under Bush, jj. Pogroms? Book burnings?

"under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance? Well, I have news for you. Bush didn't put that in there. And if it is the will of the people for it to remain, who is he to differ?

The Ten Commandments in a courthouse? Uh oh. Guess what's on the wall (and has been for a long time) in the highest courthouse in the land?

On the east front of the building is a sculpture group by Herman A. McNeil and the marble figures represent great lawgivers, Moses, Confucius, and Solon, flanked by symbolic groups representing Means of Enforcing the Law, Tempering Justice with Mercy, Carrying on of Civilization and Settlement of Disputes Between States.
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Directly above the Bench are two central figures, depicting Majesty of the Law and Power of Government. Between them is a tableau of the Ten Commandments.
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http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/butowsky2/constitution9.htm


Bush lowered your taxes. That bastard! You're right. He should be hung for treason.


Seriously, jj, I have no idea what nightmare you have playing in your head. So why don't you share it with us? Give us some specifics. What do you see happening with four more years of Bush, as compared to four years of Kerry? Give us a scenario with and without another terrorist attack on U.S. soil. A contrast between Bush and Kerry.

(edited to add quoted sections and source)
 
Luke T. said:
Give us a scenario with and without another terrorist attack on U.S. soil. A contrast between Bush and Kerry.
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This reminded me, for some reason, of an interview with a woman shortly after the second presidential debate. She said (paraphrasing), "I feel safe when I go to the mall with my kids now, and that's why I'm going to vote for Bush."

Eh? Did she feel unsafe before Bush? I doubt it. Does she feel that, were Gore or Kerry in charge, she'd still feel frightened? I doubt she's even considered it.

For those backing Bush: Do you think that, if Gore were president, he'd have handled 9/11 differently, and how and why?
 
Luke T. said:
What do you see happening with four more years of Bush, as compared to four years of Kerry?
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If I may interject... Seeing as we're apt to get 2-3 supreme court appointments during the next term, Bush's re-election could easily mean:

1) overturn of Roe v Wade
2) prayer in school
3) four more years of Ashcroft and the erosion of our liberties/privacy (Orwell only missed by 20 yrs)
 
Matabiri said:
For those backing Bush: Do you think that, if Gore were president, he'd have handled 9/11 differently, and how and why?
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I don't think Gore would have invaded Afghanistan or Iraq. We'd still have the Patriot Act. We would not have half as many terrorists (Al Qaeda) in custody. We probably would have been attacked again by now for our weak response. Gore probably would also be giving serious consideration to ending the military containment of Hussein to appease the terrorists.
 
Luke T. said:
I don't think Gore would have invaded Afghanistan or Iraq. We'd still have the Patriot Act. We would not have half as many terrorists (Al Qaeda) in custody. We probably would have been attacked again by now for our weak response. Gore probably would also be giving serious consideration to ending the military containment of Hussein to appease the terrorists.
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Why do you think you'd have the Patriot Act, but not a response in Afghanistan?

I'm interested: as I see it, the Patriot Act is a far larger step in civil liberties terms than Afghanistan was in military terms (if you see what I mean), and is definitely a product of this administration. I'd have thought it would be the other way round, given the international climate after the attacks.
 
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