The Nazi Pope Is A Dope

[shemp]

 

[The Atheist]

He (the Pope) has just promoted another interesting character: Fr Wagner.

Well, you couldn't deny that it's obvious which way this pope's driving the RCC.

He must be best pope they've had for centuries - he'll do more damage to the church than 1000 Dawkinses.

 

[Herzblut]

As I understand it, membership in the Deutsche Jungvolk (the Cub Scouts of Nazism) was mandatory for boys aged 11 to 14. Ratzinger managed to avoid joining this group, probably due to his father's dislike for the anti-Catholic Nazi positions, but Ratzinger as a more independent-minded teenager somehow felt compelled to join the Hitler Youth in 1941, when he was 14.

Total crap.

Following his fourteenth birthday in 1941, Ratzinger was enrolled in the Hitler Youth, as membership was required for all 14-year old German boys after December 1939[7], but was an unenthusiastic member and refused to attend meetings.[8]

His father was a bitter enemy of Nazism, believing it conflicted with the Catholic faith, according to biographer John L. Allen, Jr.

In 1941, one of Ratzinger's cousins, a 14-year-old boy with Down syndrome, was killed by the Nazi regime in its campaign of eugenics.[9]

In 1943 while still in seminary, he was drafted at age 16 into the German anti-aircraft corps. Ratzinger then trained in the German infantry, but a subsequent illness precluded him from the usual rigours of military duty. As the Allied front drew closer to his post in 1945, he deserted back to his family's home in Traunstein after his unit had ceased to exist, just as American troops established their headquarters in the Ratzinger household. As a German soldier, he was put in a POW camp but was released a few months later at the end of the War in summer 1945. He reentered the seminary, along with his brother Georg, in November of that year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI

You don't have a case, none whatsoever.

Ratzinger has said that "resistance was impossible," this despite the significant amount of resistance in his very neighborhood, of which he was certainly aware.

You are so clueless.

Resistance was difficult, painful, dangerous, but not "impossible" as he claimed, and by doing so he is insulting all the resistance that did occur. Indeed John Paul II openly resisted the Nazis in Poland.

Maybe because they ruthlessly attacked, invaded and exploited the country? Like Stalin's red army.

But the ethical challenge emerges when as an adult he later claims to be the sole voice of morality for all Christendom (or all humanity?) and comes up with excuses for his behavior that he was just following orders.

Please provide evidence of any excuse he issued. I see no reason for it.

 

[grunion]

Total crap.

Following his fourteenth birthday in 1941, Ratzinger was enrolled in the Hitler Youth, as membership was required for all 14-year old German boys after December 1939[7], but was an unenthusiastic member and refused to attend meetings.[8]

His father was a bitter enemy of Nazism, believing it conflicted with the Catholic faith, according to biographer John L. Allen, Jr.

In 1941, one of Ratzinger's cousins, a 14-year-old boy with Down syndrome, was killed by the Nazi regime in its campaign of eugenics.[9]

In 1943 while still in seminary, he was drafted at age 16 into the German anti-aircraft corps. Ratzinger then trained in the German infantry, but a subsequent illness precluded him from the usual rigours of military duty. As the Allied front drew closer to his post in 1945, he deserted back to his family's home in Traunstein after his unit had ceased to exist, just as American troops established their headquarters in the Ratzinger household. As a German soldier, he was put in a POW camp but was released a few months later at the end of the War in summer 1945. He reentered the seminary, along with his brother Georg, in November of that year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI

You don't have a case, none whatsoever.

Perhaps you'd care to point out how any of your Wikipedia quotes refute any of what I wrote.

You are so clueless.

Perhaps, but you are the one citing non sequiturs as arguments.

Maybe because they ruthlessly attacked, invaded and exploited the country? Like Stalin's red army.

Point? That Wojtyla had a reason to resist the Nazis but Ratzenberger didn't? This is the morality you are defending?

Please provide evidence of any excuse he issued. I see no reason for it.

His "excuse" was that "resistance was impossible." His neighbors were hiding resistance fighters, others in his neighborhood were sent to camps as conscientious objectors, yet for him it was "impossible." Now His Most High Moral Priestness And Right Hand Of God is harboring denialists and other scum. I hope he chokes on his communion wafer.

 

[Herzblut]

Perhaps you'd care to point out how any of your Wikipedia quotes refute any of what I wrote.

You insinuate an independent, self-determined decision R's whether to join the HY, which is an infamous lie, as proved above.

Point? That Wojtyla had a reason to resist the Nazis but Ratzenberger didn't? This is the morality you are defending?

You don't think there's more reason and more chances to resist a hostile intruder and plunderer, than to resist your own country's government?

His "excuse" was that "resistance was impossible."

Pls provide a cite which is making clear that R apologizes for anything.

Now His Most High Moral Priestness And Right Hand Of God is harboring denialists and other scum.

Is being a denialist a crime in the US?

I hope he chokes on his communion wafer.

I hope you provide some quotes showing how the Jews think about it, because your own notions are, with due respect, totally irrelevant.

But it might be Israel is currently too busy dealing with the repeated physical assaults against Jews in Pres. Hugo Chávez' Socialist dream country, Venezuela.

http://jta.org/news/article/2009/02/01/1002660/concern-criticism-follow-venezuelan-synagogue-attack

 

[Toke]

So, he joined the boyscouts?
He wants to convert jews, and other non-catolichs?

I am more concerned about his decrees about fertility and catolic cults like opus dei*.
There is plenty of reason to despice him in his current job, no need to dig deeper.

*What was that about holocaust denying churchmen?

 

[grunion]

You insinuate an independent, self-determined decision R's to join the HY, which is an infamous lie, as proved above.

I suppose I should be flattered that you call my words "infamous," yet being called a liar somehow blunts that momentary jolt you provided my ego. Your interpretation of my "insinuation" is quite spurious, so the lie is in your own mind.

You don't think there's more reason and more chances to resist a hostile intruder and plunderer, than to resist you own country's government?

Are you reading what I wrote or what you are imagining I would be writing were I the straw man you think I am?

Pls provide a cite which is making clear that R apologizes for anything.

Why do you think I should go find an apology he's made for anything? Why, he is infallible is he not?

Is being a denialist a crime in the US?

Not as far as I know, but perhaps you should be asking that on some different thread. This one is about how Ratzinger harbors Holocaust deniers in his Church, and whether that is a wise move.

I hope you provide some quotes showing how the Jews think about it, because you're own notions are, with due respect, totally irrelevant.

I hope you provide a modicum of explanation about why you think Jews, or anyone else, would be unified on any particular question, and what that has to do with anything. On second thought I hope you don't.

But it might be Israel is currently too busy dealing with the repeated physical assaults against Jews in Pres. Hugo Chávez' Socialist dream country, Venezuela.

http://jta.org/news/article/2009/02/01/1002660/concern-criticism-follow-venezuelan-synagogue-attack

Nice derail, really relevant link, Herzblut.

 

[Herzblut]

I suppose I should be flattered that you call my words "infamous," yet being called a liar somehow blunts that momentary jolt you provided my ego.

I didn't call your words infamous, neither did I call you a liar, if you think about it for a while.

Your interpretation of my "insinuation" is quite spurious, so the lie is in your own mind.

Good to know that you actually have no point to make, do you?

This one is about how Ratzinger harbors Holocaust deniers in his Church, and whether that is a wise move.

You seek the answer in R's past, when he was 12 or so living in a suppressive system, and it is questionable whether that is a wise move.

I hope you provide a modicum of explanation about why you think Jews, or anyone else, would be unified on any particular question, and what that has to do with anything.

You're ignorant to the reaction of the Jewish community on your claims of Nazism and anti-Semitism? And how it compares to the harsh anti-Semitism of other major leaders?

Probably you like to enjoy your scream of outrage without distraction from reality. Fine, satisfy yourself here, you're posts remain irrelevant.

H

 

[grunion]

You seek the answer in R's past, when he was 12 or so living in a suppressive system, and it is questionable whether that is a wise move.

No, in his decisions of the past few days, which based upon his life's history, come as little surprise.

You're ignorant to the reaction of the Jewish community on your claims of Nazism and anti-Semitism? And how it compares to the harsh anti-Semitism of other major leaders?

No, I am fully aware of the outrage expressed by Jews and others about this move. The other issues you bring in are irrelevant to the topic here, and I suggest you start a thread somewhere about them if you think it worthy of discussion.

 

[Herzblut]

No, I am fully aware of the outrage expressed by Jews and others about this move.

Would you show us examples of corresponding Jewish outrage against the Pope?

Added:
Does it compare to that:

A Jewish human rights NGO on Friday called upon Jose Miguel Insulza, Secretary General of the Organization of American States (OAS) to take action against the anti-Semitic campaign taking place in Venezuela, one of its member states.

"Under the presidency of Hugo Chavez, the Jewish community of Venezuela has suffered repeated attacks, which were, at least tolerated, if not incited or promoted by State officials," the founder and dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, Rabbi Marvin Hier wrote in a letter.

"We urge you to establish an OAS special field mission… to immediately investigate the situation…and recommend punitive action against all those who are responsible for this campaign of hatred against the Jewish people," concluded Rabbi Hier.

The Simon Wiesenthal Center is one of the largest international Jewish human rights organizations with over 400,000 member families in the United States. It is an NGO at international agencies including the United Nations, UNESCO, the OSCE, the OAS, the Council of Europe and the Latin American Parliament (Parlatino).


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304641784&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

I hope it does, unless you like to keep wallowing in the mire of ignorance and irrelevance.

 

[Herzblut]

No, in his decisions of the past few days, which based upon his life's history, come as little surprise.

Prove that his recent decisions have a causal relationship to being enrolled by Law into a youth organization at the age of 14.

 

[grunion]

Would you show us examples of corresponding Jewish outrage against the Pope?

Added:
Does it compare to that:

A Jewish human rights NGO on Friday called upon Jose Miguel Insulza, Secretary General of the Organization of American States (OAS) to take action against the anti-Semitic campaign taking place in Venezuela, one of its member states.

"Under the presidency of Hugo Chavez, the Jewish community of Venezuela has suffered repeated attacks, which were, at least tolerated, if not incited or promoted by State officials," the founder and dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, Rabbi Marvin Hier wrote in a letter.

"We urge you to establish an OAS special field mission… to immediately investigate the situation…and recommend punitive action against all those who are responsible for this campaign of hatred against the Jewish people," concluded Rabbi Hier.

The Simon Wiesenthal Center is one of the largest international Jewish human rights organizations with over 400,000 member families in the United States. It is an NGO at international agencies including the United Nations, UNESCO, the OSCE, the OAS, the Council of Europe and the Latin American Parliament (Parlatino).


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304641784&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

I hope it does, unless you like to keep wallowing in the mire of ignorance and irrelevance.

Ad hominems aside, I cannot think of anything less relevant to the thread than to compare the levels of outrage felt by what you see as World Jewry to various activities going on around the world right now. Are you Jewish? Perhaps you are and you think Chavez' actions more outrageous than the Pope's and I take no issue with that. I am Jewish and find Holocaust Revisionism and calling 9/11 an Israeli-US Conspiracy and defending the Protocols of the Elders Of Zion as completely despicable acts. Maybe you don't. Maybe some other Jews do. Maybe some don't. What the heck difference does it make to anything?

But since "Jewish reaction" seems to be the single most important way for you to gauge whether the Pope's actions are anti-semitic here are a few links you can spend time with. Mods, feel free to split this thread starting at Herzblut's entrance, call it something to do with comparing Herzbluts perceptions of Jewish outrage to differrent world events.

Israel threatens to suspend relations with the Vatican
Britain's Jewish Leaders Condemn Pope
German-Jewish Leader Cancels Talks With Pope
Elie Weisel Attacks Pope Over Holocaust Denial
Canadian Jews Call On Catholic Bishops to Condemn Pope's Decision
Pope's Action Causes Crisis in U.S. Jewish-Catholic Relations
Vatican Stirs Fury Among Australia's Jewish Community
Jewish-Catholic Crisis Seen In Bishop's Rehabilitation
Director Of Yad Vashem Slams Pope

..and there were another 2494 stories published during the past week reporting similar reactions from pretty much every Jewish community and organization in the world.

But since all this is inconsequential to my point I will leave it at that.

 

[Herzblut]

Ad hominems aside, I cannot think of anything less relevant to the thread than to compare the levels of outrage felt by what you see as World Jewry to various activities going on around the world right now.

I know you celebrate your own personal outrage here and don't care about anything else.

Are you Jewish?

No.

Perhaps you are and you think Chavez' actions more outrageous than the Pope's and I take no issue with that. I am Jewish and find Holocaust Revisionism and calling 9/11 an Israeli-US Conspiracy and defending the Protocols of the Elders Of Zion as completely despicable acts.

I find calling somebody a NAZI who was forced to join the HY when he was a 14 years old boy a totally disgusting act.

Meanwhile, I even wonder if you're not (just) a fanatic anti-Catholic, as I initially thought, but in fact a Germany-hater. Not being a moron you must be aware that you are discriminating hundreds of thousands of Germans sharing a similar fate.

I do not make any difference between fanatics who are anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic or what have you. They all share the same notion of hatred, intolerance and ignorance and will get the response they deserve from me.

But since "Jewish reaction" seems to be the single most important way for you to gauge whether the Pope's actions are anti-semitic here are a few links you can spend time with.

Who is calling the Pope anti-Semitic, a Nazi? Apart from yourself, of course.

 

[MG1962]

Israel threatens to suspend relations with the Vatican
Britain's Jewish Leaders Condemn Pope
German-Jewish Leader Cancels Talks With Pope
Elie Weisel Attacks Pope Over Holocaust Denial
Canadian Jews Call On Catholic Bishops to Condemn Pope's Decision
Pope's Action Causes Crisis in U.S. Jewish-Catholic Relations
Vatican Stirs Fury Among Australia's Jewish Community
Jewish-Catholic Crisis Seen In Bishop's Rehabilitation
Director Of Yad Vashem Slams Pope

..and there were another 2494 stories published during the past week reporting similar reactions from pretty much every Jewish community and organization in the world.

Yes and just like you, they have jumped to a conclussion. The Pope has lifted the excommunication order - means they are allowed to be Catholic. They have not been reinstated as clerics within the Church.

They were not excommunicated because of anti holocaust views. They were excommunicated because they broke Church law. As far as I am aware there is nothing in Church doctrine that means a Catholic can be excommunicated for holocaust denial.

From the press release from the Catholic Communication network

http://www.catholic-ew.org.uk/ccb/c...n_lifting_of_excommunications_of_sspx_bishops

As full communion has not yet been restored, it follows that members of the SSPX who are priests or bishops cannot exercise their ministry as priests or bishops in full communion. Part of the dialogue between the Holy See and the SSPX will include looking at how its bishops and priests could exercise their ministry in the Catholic Church were that hope to be realized.

 

[grunion]

Yes and just like you, they have jumped to a conclussion. The Pope has lifted the excommunication order - means they are allowed to be Catholic. They have not been reinstated as clerics within the Church.

They were not excommunicated because of anti holocaust views. They were excommunicated because they broke Church law. As far as I am aware there is nothing in Church doctrine that means a Catholic can be excommunicated for holocaust denial.

From the press release from the Catholic Communication network

http://www.catholic-ew.org.uk/ccb/c...n_lifting_of_excommunications_of_sspx_bishops

As full communion has not yet been restored, it follows that members of the SSPX who are priests or bishops cannot exercise their ministry as priests or bishops in full communion. Part of the dialogue between the Holy See and the SSPX will include looking at how its bishops and priests could exercise their ministry in the Catholic Church were that hope to be realized.

I agree that this kind of argument ad populum is meaningless, I only posted these links because another poster demanded some sort of evidence that Jews were as outraged by this decision as by other anti-semitic episodes. In retrospect I probably should have ignored it.

Frankly I don't care what the grounds are for excommunication or de-excommunication or for who gets to say what bit of mumbo-jumbo or wear what silly hat. It's all crap to me. I care about whether it was right or wrong (WRONG) and whether is was a wise move or stupid one (STUPID).

 

[Wildy]

Listen folks, Jews thank God every day that they were not born Gentiles, slaves, or women. So if Catholics pray for the conversion of Jews, its not that big a deal.

Not born women? So does that mean that Jewish women thank God every day that they were not born Gentiles or slaves, and curse the fact that they were born a woman, or do Jews reproduce asexually now?

Indeed John Paul II openly resisted the Nazis in Poland.

Sorry, how exactly did he openly resist the Nazis? From what I can gather from a book I bought on the Popes at the Vatican it seems that he spent much of his time either working, studying at clandestine universities/seminaries, and hiding.

 

[MG1962]

Frankly I don't care what the grounds are for excommunication or de-excommunication or for who gets to say what bit of mumbo-jumbo or wear what silly hat. It's all crap to me. I care about whether it was right or wrong (WRONG) and whether is was a wise move or stupid one (STUPID).

The Pope has some fairly strict rules to play by regarding ex-communication, unfortunately past abuse of the act has required these rules. So regardless of the Popes personal opinion of these people, if the cause of the excommunication is removed, the excommunication must be lifted.

 

[MG1962]

Sorry, how exactly did he openly resist the Nazis? From what I can gather from a book I bought on the Popes at the Vatican it seems that he spent much of his time either working, studying at clandestine universities/seminaries, and hiding.

I have a very vague memory from an old newsweek article that he smuggled food to some Jewish families, and once rescued a woman by carrying her some phenomenal distance in a snow storm. That sticks in my mind because after he became Pope, someone tracked to woman down and they met when he went to Poland

 

[grunion]

Sorry, how exactly did he openly resist the Nazis? From what I can gather from a book I bought on the Popes at the Vatican it seems that he spent much of his time either working, studying at clandestine universities/seminaries, and hiding.

I wasn't a big fan of JPII either, but he was quite a bit more reasonable than this guy IMHO. I could be wrong but I recall reading somewhere about his theater troupe performing anti-Nazi plays in defiance of local gestapo orders.

 

[a_unique_person]

I wasn't a big fan of JPII either, but he was quite a bit more reasonable than this guy IMHO. I could be wrong but I recall reading somewhere about his theater troupe performing anti-Nazi plays in defiance of local gestapo orders.

Ratz is just the logical extension of the direction JPII turned the church towards, more conservative, more fundamentalist.