The "Nakba" Myth

[bit_pattern]

Could you be more hysterical? There was no genocide and Israel has always been a democracy that treats Arab citizens better than any Arab state does.

It's not the Arab citizens that are in contention here, straw man much? I'm sure the vast majority of Palestinian refugees would happily accept an Israeli passport and vote in Israel's democratic elections, but, unfortunately for them, it is the stateless millions kept in perpetual limbo by Israel that are at issue.

 

[The Fool]

They have pretty much the same level of freedoms and civils rights (which I repeat is my criteria), so it's difficult to compare them. I would say unfortunately the US is slightly inferior (again, according to my criteria) because of the death penalty and it seems still discriminatory towards non believers and mostly doesn't allow for same sex marriage (so is Great Britain and Australia I believe), but the Canadians and Australians have had their fair share of discrimination too (their treatment of the aborigenese and the language problems). So it's difficult to put on a scale, they kind of level off and they all are slowly moving towards the same goals for freedom.

bigjelmapro' map is a good indicator.

So before you ask me again, my answer is : they level off, with the US slightly trailing behind.

Satisfied?

yes... Quite satisfied.... Canadian culture is superior to American culture. I always suspected this

 

[Virus]

it is the stateless millions kept in perpetual limbo by Israel that are at issue.

They've only got themselves to blame. Either they give up war and reach a compromise or get used to it.

 

[a_unique_person]

Could you be more hysterical? There was no genocide and Israel has always been a democracy that treats Arab citizens better than any Arab state does.

The Armenian Genocide was real, and the Ottomans did it.

 

[DC]

They've only got themselves to blame. Either they give up war and reach a compromise or get used to it.

what a statement for someone that pointed out the lack of democracy and personal freedoms the people suffer under, the same people you now say they only have to blame them self.

 

[Mycroft]

Did they choose to be under the tyranny of a foreign power? One that demonstrated it was prepared to resort to genocide if it's domination was threatened?

Who is it that demonstrated they were "prepared to resort to genocide", when and how?

And really, I thought you had been smacked around enough that you were done with this "genocide" fixation of yours.

 

[Thunder]

There was no genocide and Israel has always been a democracy that treats Arab citizens better than any Arab state does.

does this include the 30 something years that Arab citizens were placed under Martial Law in Israel?

does this include the expropriation of Arab land from Arab citizens, to build housing for Jews?



give me a break.

 

[Thunder]

That's pretty much what they did do. The Jewish leaders accepted tiny slivers of land, unconnected and indefensible, with the majority of the best arable land going to the Arabs in the Jordan Valley. Further, that 54% figure of yours is largely due to the Jews getting the largely empty and not-so-useful Negev Desert.

land is land..what does it matter where it is?

didnt Israel make the desert bloom? they is famous for that.

why is it that you think the Arabs should have been satisfied with less than 50% of the WB, even though they made up 67% of the population..

but the Jews should NOT have been satusfied with the Negev desert?

seems like a double-standard to me. the Arabs should just suck it up but the Jews had a right to complain?

 

[Thunder]

The British Mandate for Palestine was divided into two. The Arab half was on the East bank of the Jordan. The West Bank (heard that term before?) was where the Jews were building their communities.

yes. the HALF that was east of the Jordan river was called "Jordan".

the other HALF, west of the Jordan river was called "Palestine".

not....."the West Bank".

try....again.

 

[bigjelmapro]

In Australia, we had literally hundreds of tribes and groups all with independent identities before white people arrived. Does that in anyway delegitimise the common Aboriginal Australian identity today?

Sure, identities, but which ones are a used as a political tool to gain this legitimacy? I'm sure, at least to my knowledge, those tribes in Australia don't use the concept of identities in such a way and neither would they care to. Then again, we are talking about a landmass almost 350 times larger than Israel proper. I realize a lot of debater want to brush this off as irrelevant, but I certainly don't think so....

By me?
No?
Relevance?

No, not by you. A portion of arab intellectuals, as well as Palestinians within the PA. Its a standard tool for the past 4 decades, except there's a lot of squabbling still about whose history they wish to adopt.

 

[bit_pattern]

Sure, identities, but which ones are a used as a political tool to gain this legitimacy? I'm sure, at least to my knowledge, those tribes in Australia don't use the concept of identities in such a way and neither would they care to. Then again, we are talking about a landmass almost 350 times larger than Israel proper. I realize a lot of debater want to brush this off as irrelevant, but I certainly don't think so....

You obviously don't know the first thing about Australia then... The struggle for land rights in many ways mirrors the Palestinian struggle... Except that we adopted our indigenous population as citizens and gave them the vote back around the time that Israel was doing the exact polar opposite to their Palestinian population.

http://www.indexoz.com/flag/aboriginal-flag.htm

 

[Mycroft]

You obviously don't know the first thing about Australia then... The struggle for land rights in many ways mirrors the Palestinian struggle... Except that we adopted our indigenous population as citizens and gave them the vote back around the time that Israel was doing the exact polar opposite to their Palestinian population.

http://www.indexoz.com/flag/aboriginal-flag.htm

Then you stole their babies and tried to erase their cultures by raising them as white people.

 

[bit_pattern]

Then you stole their babies and tried to erase their cultures by raising them as white people.

Actually, no, those practices all but stopped after the referendum - although they did continue in isolation for a few years after that. Evidently you know even less about Australian history than bigjel!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

 

[Mycroft]

land is land..what does it matter where it is?

What's the saying in real estate? Location, location, location.

didnt Israel make the desert bloom? they is famous for that.

So...because Jewish people can make good with crap, it's okay to give them only crap? That's, uhm, an interesting theory of yours.

why is it that you think the Arabs should have been satisfied with less than 50% of the WB, even though they made up 67% of the population..

So you've forgotten all that stuff about the relative quality of the land and the anticipation of more Jewish immigration already?

but the Jews should NOT have been satusfied with the Negev desert?

Didn't I just get through saying they were?

seems like a double-standard to me. the Arabs should just suck it up but the Jews had a right to complain?

Didn't I just get through saying differently? C'mon, go back and read this post again.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6275800#post6275800

 

[Virus]

does this include the 30 something years that Arab citizens were placed under Martial Law in Israel?

does this include the expropriation of Arab land from Arab citizens, to build housing for Jews?

give me a break.

Neither of which is genocide.

Get your terms straight.

 

[Thunder]

Neither of which is genocide.

Get your terms straight.

err....I never said it was genocide.

you claimed Israel treats Arabs better than the Arab states, and I proved this is a false statement.

try again.

 

[Thunder]

So you've forgotten all that stuff about the relative quality of the land and the anticipation of more Jewish immigration already?

which was proven to be a poor anticipation. most Jews came to Israel from Europe AFTER the 1967 war.

or did Israel somehow convince the Soviets to make life miserable for their Jews and all the Jews in the Warsaw pact?

 

[Mycroft]

which was proven to be a poor anticipation. most Jews came to Israel from Europe AFTER the 1967 war.

And your point is what, exactly? You think they should have been prescient?

Immediately later or 20 years later, they expected a lot more immigration. They got it too.

or did Israel somehow convince the Soviets to make life miserable for their Jews and all the Jews in the Warsaw pact?

That's kind of a bizarre non-sequitur there, don't you think?

 

[Thunder]

And your point is what, exactly?

my point is, if they gave the Jews 54% of Palestine because they expected MILLIONS to come from Europe as soon as statehood was declared, then they were clearly very wrong. wrong by at least 20 years.

in fact, if it was not for Soviet and Communist persecution of Jews, there would be close to 2 million less Jews in Israel today.

so basically, the UN Commission that devised the partition plan, simply got lucky.

 

[Mycroft]

my point is, if they gave the Jews 54% of Palestine because they expected MILLIONS to come from Europe as soon as statehood was declared, then they were clearly very wrong. wrong by at least 20 years.

in fact, if it was not for Soviet and Communist persecution of Jews, there would be close to 2 million less Jews in Israel today.

so basically, the UN Commission that devised the partition plan, simply got lucky.

Well, thanks for admitting they expected more immigration, but claiming they were wrong to expect it can't be proven. The partition plan was rejected by the Arab powers who chose war instead, we can only speculate how history might have been different if the plan were accepted instead.