The memory of water

[gs21stc]

The memory of water hypothesis states that water can have memory of substances once dissolved in it. The following research papers seems to have proven this hypothesis:

[1] L. Rey, Physica A, 323, 67-74 (2003)

[2] P. Belon et. al., Inflammation Research, 53, 181-188 (2004)

What are your opinions? Do you think that water could possibly have a memory?

 

[devnull]

Please provide links to the papers if possible.

What sort of 'memory'? I mean, what would the effect be?

 

[ush]

Why would water have a memory? Only animals have memories, I don't think it's a matter of opinion mate. If water has a memory then should lava, milk, beer, orange juice, tomato juice, olive oil etc also have memories? I don't think so and find the very question a kin to asking if a pencil has a sense of morality.

I doubt it's a "hypothesis" anyway, just mythology.

 

[PixyMisa]

What are your opinions?

It's total garbage and the people who write such papers are incompetent at best.

Shrug. You did ask.

Do you think that water could possibly have a memory?

No.

I assume you have read and analysed the two papers you cite and compared them with the evidence showing that water cannot have "memory" and have good reasons to believe what you do.

So, what are those reasons?

 

[gs21stc]

I assume you have read and analysed the two papers you cite and compared them with the evidence showing that water cannot have "memory" and have good reasons to believe what you do.

So, what are those reasons?

I did not mention anything about believing in the memory of water. I am just very interested in any new discoveries that they might make in science. If anyone can provide me with the evidence that water cannot have memory, I will be very happy to read it.

 

[cyborg]

If anyone can provide me with the evidence that water cannot have memory, I will be very happy to read it.

Not the way it works. Besides, what does this even mean? Maybe water has a memory but it just won't tell you what it's thinking. Can't disprove that.

If water has a memory this is only meaningful if one can accurately set and read it - much like the memory on your PC is accurately set and read many times over.

 

[PixyMisa]

I did not mention anything about believing in the memory of water.

Yes you did.

You said:

The following research papers seems to have proven this hypothesis

If it is your opinion that the hypothesis has been proven, and you don't believe it, then you are very confused.

I am just very interested in any new discoveries that they might make in science.

But why pick these two papers, out of millions?

If anyone can provide me with the evidence that water cannot have memory, I will be very happy to read it.

It's a liquid.

 

[ush]

I did not mention anything about believing in the memory of water. I am just very interested in any new discoveries that they might make in science. If anyone can provide me with the evidence that water cannot have memory, I will be very happy to read it.

I might be misinterpreting but I think this is quite telling, it seems that you do believe water has a memory. I use the word 'believe' in its strictest sense since a copious amount of belief is required to accept the proposition. To reiterate, liquids don't have memories nor do pencils.

 

[gs21stc]

Please provide links to the papers if possible.

What sort of 'memory'? I mean, what would the effect be?

One of them is about water remembering salts once dissolved in it, and the other one is about water remembering some biological substance called histamine which was dissolved in it.

The first paper concerns physics, while the second paper is related to biology/medicine. You can choose which paper to read depending on which field you are more familiar or comfortable with.

I can't post links yet. I need one more post.

 

[ush]

So if I put salt into water, remove the salt (which can be done) there will still be salt in the water?

Will the water taste salty?

Could I analyze the chemical content of the solution and find the memory of salt?

 

[gs21stc]

I have earned my right. Here are the links:

[1] http://dx.doi.org, then type this in the box: 10.1016/S0378-4371(03)00047-5

[2] http://www.springerlink.com/content/dmby16rmj02dhxat/?p=5925b61584f3497e901e82e1d09c52ee&pi=3

You can't read the full articles if you or your institution do not have subscription to Science Direct or Springer-Verlag. Otherwise, you'll have to pay for the articles. You can still read the abstract though.

I have electronic pdf copies, but I can't attach it until 2 days later, when I will be at my institution.

 

[pastime]

Here is a link for what I think is the first article cited. I have to leave now and haven't found the second article yet in the public domain (it is available for purchase - yeah, right). The web site is probably not unfamiliar to many of you, and perhaps provides a clue as to the validity of the argument.

http://www.badscience.net//?p=495

 

[Ladewig]

Here's a counterclaim:

Besides, follow up work published in:

L. Rey, Thermoluminescence of deuterated amorphous and crystalline ices, Radiation Phys. Chem. 72 (2005) 587-594.

Showed that the effect was due to trace amounts of material remaining due to poor mixing and impurities, adsoprtions being concentrated between ice crystals.

Anyway, other studies have found that slicate, sodium and carbonate ions can be absobed from the glassware and air with repeated shaking.

I haven't finished googling to determine exactly what this second paper says.

 

[Lilith]

The author of the 1st paper has a conflict of interest, nicely described in this article which is about a different paper he authored:

http://dcscience.net/?p=164

which states:
"Another thing that makes the paper interesting is that one of the authors is Philippe Belon. who is a director of the huge French homeopathic company, Boiron. This is properly declared at the end.

Conflicts of interest: Dr Belon is the head of the clinical research department of Laboratoires Boiron. The Laboratoires Boiron financially supported the study. None of the other investigators had any conflict of interest.

Boiron makes profits from homeopathy of about 20 million euros a year, on net operating revenues of about 300 million euros. It is big business. Philippe Belon has an interesting record."

 

[fls]

The memory of water hypothesis states that water can have memory of substances once dissolved in it. The following research papers seems to have proven this hypothesis:

[1] L. Rey, Physica A, 323, 67-74 (2003)

[2] P. Belon et. al., Inflammation Research, 53, 181-188 (2004)

What are your opinions? Do you think that water could possibly have a memory?

Why do you think that those scientists (physicists, chemists, physicians) who would be most interested in these results, if true, do not consider the hypothesis proven?

Linda

 

[Lilith]

More interesting results from search engine queries - the third and corresponding author (of the 2nd paper in OP) was involved in a test for the Randi challenge:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/homeopathytrans.shtml

 

[gs21stc]

Why do you think that those scientists (physicists, chemists, physicians) who would be most interested in these results, if true, do not consider the hypothesis proven?

Linda

I have seen the papers which discredits the two papers I cited in the opening provided by posters in this thread and others. I now understand the reason why the memory of water hypothesis is not considered proven in the mainstream scientific community.

 

[Sherman Bay]

I just poured a glass of water from the tap. Can anyone tell me what it's thinking?

Of course water has a memory. But only homeopaths can detect it.

 

[Ladewig]

I have seen the papers which discredits the two papers I cited in the opening provided by posters in this thread and others. I now understand the reason why the memory of water hypothesis is not considered proven in the mainstream scientific community.

So, are you of the opinion that water does have a memory and it simply has not yet been proven to the standards of the mainstream scientific community or are you of the opinion that water does not have a memory?

 

[gs21stc]

So, are you of the opinion that water does have a memory and it simply has not yet been proven to the standards of the mainstream scientific community or are you of the opinion that water does not have a memory?

I am the person who will entertain any interesting hypothesis, but will not truly believe in it unless it has been proven with rigorous scientific testing.