The Massei/Mignini Conspiracy Theory

[Kaosium]

Exactly. This simple fact dismantles P's argument completely.
Have a nice Saturday, people

How? I seem to have missed something. If the phone was at the cottage or on its way then Platonov's point, which is something that I've also pondered, would stand. Dan-O's noting that it might have already been tossed but connected to that tower due to the nature of the SMS service would seem to refute it however.

Does anyone know what Platonov meant by 12:15 in regards to where the phones were?

 

[Katody Matrass]

How? I seem to have missed something. If the phone was at the cottage or on its way then Platonov's point, which is something that I've also pondered, would stand. Dan-O's noting that it might have already been tossed but connected to that tower due to the nature of the SMS service would seem to refute it however.

There is no way to know when exactly Guede left the cottage - cell connection at 22:13 doesn't tell us that. What does "on it's way" mean? How long is it? For how long did Rudy hide e.g. in St. Angelo park after the murder before he got rid of the phones and sneaked back to his place?

I have no reason to assume that he went straight back. It's more reasonable he waited because it was still early with people on the streets, and he didn't want to be noticed by some neighbor in his state - shaken, bloody wet clothes etc.

Does anyone know what Platonov meant by 12:15 in regards to where the phones were?

Maybe he meant the 00:10 (midnight) connection of Meredith's phone. But it's meaningless in context of his argument. You have to wait until he deobfuscates it

 

[Kestrel]

There is no way to know when exactly Guede left the cottage - cell connection at 22:13 doesn't tell us that. What does "on it's way" mean? How long is it? For how long did Rudy hide e.g. in St. Angelo park after the murder before he got rid of the phones and sneaked back to his place?

I have no reason to assume that he went straight back. It's more reasonable he waited because it was still early with people on the streets, and he didn't want to be noticed by some neighbor in his state - shaken, bloody wet clothes etc.

As I recall, it's roughly a half kilometer from the cottage to where the cell phones were found. There are Google Map links to the various sites related to the murder on the front page of the Perugia Shock blog if you want to verify this.

It's not hard to imagine Rudy taking a route home outside the city walls. On the direct route home he is likely to run into people. It goes by the basketball court, a place where he is well known. Through the park outside the walls it's likely to be deserted on a chilly November night. There is a side gate near his home, but it was supposedly locked that late at night. The path from that side gate to the next gate in the city walls goes very near to where the cell phones were found.

 

[Draca]

I think he left to get something to eat (the kebab). He may have originally gone to the house to see if the boys below were in - either to shoot hoops or smoke week. But maybe he left when he saw that nobody was home in either part of the house.

Perhaps while he was having his kebab, he formulated the plan to break in to the house, seeing as nobody was home. He couldn't easily have broken into the boys' house, since there were bars on all the windows and doors, so maybe the girls' cottage was his only option.

If he returned to the cottage at around 8.20-8.25, I suspect he'd have spent a good 5-10 minutes casing the house, and a further 5 minutes or so walking round to find his optimum point of entry. If he threw the rock at around 8.40, I think he'd then have retreated to the undergrowth for another 5 minutes or so, to check whether there was any reaction from inside the house. So by the time he was actually inside the house, it would have likely been around 8.45-8.50pm. If he had an urge to open his bowels shortly after getting into the house, this means he would have been in the bathroom at around 8.50-9.00pm - exactly the time when Meredith arrived home.

LJ,

This sounds like a very good theory. It makes sense that he originally went to visit the boys and then got the idea to rob the place when he found it empty. There is about a half an hour between seeing Rudy Guede at 8:20-8:22 and Meredith Kercher at 8:51-8:53. After giving time for the things you mentioned - case the place, pick an entry, find a rock, throw the rock and wait a bit and then finally making the entry - I would guess he may have actually been in the flat about 10 minutes? Maybe entered around 8:40? That would be about 10 minutes before MK's arrival home.

I agree that he was probably in the bathroom when she arrived home. She goes to her room and he tries to leave through the front door but finds it locked and than she hears him. This scenario has been around quite a while now and makes sense in so many ways.

 

[tsig]

Yeah, they are, read between the lines of the appeal.

They're just doing it in formal Italian legalese.

You're competent in Italian legalese?

 

[tsig]

I agree and I pointed out several examples of this on the main thread. Rather than directly accuse LE of misconduct or incompetence, they point it out in a way that would lead the judge to make an obvious conclusion or call for further investigation.

I must have missed it on the main thread. With freedom on the line you'd think the lawyers would go for the jugular. I'm sure Amanda appreciates her lawyers keeping in the judges comfort zone.

 

[RoseMontague]

I must have missed it on the main thread.

I would agree with that.

With freedom on the line you'd think the lawyers would go for the jugular.

Or they might also be interested in their own freedom.

I'm sure Amanda appreciates her lawyers keeping in the judges comfort zone.

I thinks she appreciates what a calumnia charge is as well.

 

[tsig]

I would agree with that.



Or they might also be interested in their own freedom.



I thinks she appreciates what a calumnia charge is as well.

No link?

So Amanda's lawyers are under threat and cannot do their jobs? Is all of Italy in a conspiracy against her?

 

[Kaosium]

You're competent in Italian legalese?

Only when translated, and hopefully not through Gobble Translate. I am sometimes afraid that my brain can handle only so much of that before I go stark, raving mad.

Perhaps that has happened already!

 

[RoseMontague]

No link?

So Amanda's lawyers are under threat and cannot do their jobs? Is all of Italy in a conspiracy against her?

Maybe so.

One of Knox's other Italian lawyers, Luciano Ghirga, as well as a lawyer for Knox's former Italian boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, who was also convicted of the Kercher murder, and several Italian newspaper and magazine journalists reportedly have either been sued or investigated for defamation.

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/16/amanda-knoxs-parents-are-just-the-latest-to-run-afoul-of-italy/

Here are a couple of examples I have given (recently):

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7074203&postcount=6502

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7074278&postcount=6508

 

[Kaosium]

I must have missed it on the main thread. With freedom on the line you'd think the lawyers would go for the jugular. I'm sure Amanda appreciates her lawyers keeping in the judges comfort zone.

You bring up an interesting point I've wondered about as well. What she actually said was rather tame, she even made excuses for the one who hit her and never actually positively identified them. That suggests to me perhaps her lawyers were hoping to skirt around the edge of it and get away with it, but Mignini decided they'd sailed too close to the edge.

Machiavelli seems to think the charge is pretty marginal, and doesn't even think she'll be convicted of it. The other Italian who was posting on the IIP site, Broken English, who like Machiavelli is very familiar with the Italian legal system but not a lawyer, seems to think conviction is basically automatic. That would add six years to her sentence, or require her to 'serve' it even if acquitted. However with reductions it would be just time served, which causes me to wonder if BE is right, that it was simply to save face and protect the officers from civil suits.

 

[RoseMontague]

Here is another quote and link:

I didn't sue anyone, Mignini says in his office. But the indiscretion I just received is clear: an investigation for defamation is running against Amanda Knox's lawyer Luciano Ghirga, Raffaele Sollecito's lawyer Luca Maori, and Oggi journalist Giangavino Sulas, along with the director and editor of that magazine

I saw some people asking about the lawsuit against the Seattle paper. Mignini is quoted this way (same link):

But Mignini did sue someone last year. What happened to the legal action against the West Seattle Herald and the article of Il Giornale in which writer Joe Cottonwood said something about Mignini? I don't know anything officially --Mingini reveals-- but I've heard that the prosecution office in charge archived the proceeding against the Seattle paper. For Il Giornale, instead, the thing went ahead, and they are probably going to ask for the trial soon.

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2010_02_01_archive.html

 

[Kaosium]

There is no way to know when exactly Guede left the cottage - cell connection at 22:13 doesn't tell us that. What does "on it's way" mean? How long is it? For how long did Rudy hide e.g. in St. Angelo park after the murder before he got rid of the phones and sneaked back to his place?

Is the park accessed through those trees easily accessible from the side where Filomena's window is?

I have no reason to assume that he went straight back. It's more reasonable he waited because it was still early with people on the streets, and he didn't want to be noticed by some neighbor in his state - shaken, bloody wet clothes etc.

Very good point! That's not something that occurred to me for some reason!

Maybe he meant the 00:10 (midnight) connection of Meredith's phone. But it's meaningless in context of his argument. You have to wait until he deobfuscates it

It's part of the fun with Platonov!

 

[platonov]

Are we talking about the same case

As has been explained several times...

It is really difficult to conceive a ToD of 9.05 or 9.15, as per KL & LJ, and now you.

AND correlate this with RG hanging around till 10.13 *

AND yet failing to wipe his prints

OR flush

OR check the other rooms for cash/ jewelry

OR why he fled straight from the bedroom with blood on his shoes.

OR where the phones were between 10.13 & 12.15
AND Leaving aside all the other evidence - the staged break-in for example.

* Even if we allow that those pings were made as the phone left the cottage which is not what the evidence shows.

NOR indeed why the defence originally went for a 9.30 - 10.30 ToD.

Unless both RG (by hanging around for an hour or 3, to cast suspicion on AK and RS, then leaving in a hurrrry) and the defence are in on the conspiracy

12.15* refers to the first time the phones showed up on the 'grid' via a dish that didn't cover the cottage - at their final resting place, the garden. The 10.13 [22.13] interaction was (still) in the cottage coverage area.

If the significance of this is lost on you guys I cant help.
It wasn't lost on the court, prosecution or the defence

*Actually 12.10 - or 10 after midnight.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Is the park accessed through those trees easily accessible from the side where Filomena's window is?

No, you anyway have to get to Via del Bulagaio first. The road twists around the town on an escarpment. Maybe Guede knows places when you can climb it from the bushy slope below, maybe he just walked out of the cottage gate and turned into Via Pergola. I think those roads were rather dark and empty, unlike the center of town.

Map of the park with entrances marked

 

[Dan O.]

Is the park accessed through those trees easily accessible from the side where Filomena's window is?

It may be possible to go that way around the hillside to avoid running into any people. There is a ravine behind the cottage that you have to cross which has a fairly dense growth. Once across the ravine, there are numerous paths visible in Google Maps but it's not possible to see through the overgrowth to see if any of them connect to where the cottage is.

Following the road outside the city wall may be the easiest path and not much chance of running into other pedestrians though there will be an occasional car. If there is a way over the wall near where Via Pergola meets Via Bulagaio, that would get you directly into the park with little exposure on the road. The local kids in that area would know if such a path exists.

 

[Katody Matrass]

12.15* refers to the first time the phones showed up on the 'grid' via a dish that didn't cover the cottage - at their final resting place, the garden. The 10.13 [22.13] interaction was (still) in the cottage coverage area.

If the significance of this is lost on you guys I cant help.
It wasn't lost on the court, prosecution or the defence

*Actually 12.10 - or 10 after midnight.

So I deciphered it correctly.
Thanks for clarifying anyway. In my opinion Guede thrown the phones away when one of them signaled at 22:13. Since then they were in the garden where they landed.

As you maybe noticed I also think he wandered outside the city walls for some time before 22:13.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I really don't see that the 10:13pm ping is inconsistant with an attack at shortly after 9pm and death at between 9:15-9:30pm. It is known that Rudy spent time in the cottage after the murder trying to clean himself up and using the towels to clean up some of the blood, 43 mins isn't that long to clean himself and his clothing, mess about with the towels in Meredith's room, grab her rent money and phones, leave, and still be within range of the cell tower when he uses the phone. Being within the tower's coverage area doesn't mean the phone was still in the cottage at the time.

 

[Dan O.]

My feeling is that Rudy wouldn't stick around after the murder any longer than absolutely necessary. He was probably already in the park by 21:58.

Of course, there is a blackout window on the time when he could of disposed of the phones. Does anybody happen to know at what time the police had responded to the prank phone call and how long they stayed?

 

[Katody Matrass]

I really don't see that the 10:13pm ping is inconsistant with an attack at shortly after 9pm and death at between 9:15-9:30pm. It is known that Rudy spent time in the cottage after the murder trying to clean himself up and using the towels to clean up some of the blood, 43 mins isn't that long to clean himself and his clothing, mess about with the towels in Meredith's room, grab her rent money and phones, leave, and still be within range of the cell tower when he uses the phone. Being within the tower's coverage area doesn't mean the phone was still in the cottage at the time.

I overlooked that part of Platonov's post. You, as not obsessed with the case, may not be aware that the cell tower in question in fact gave no optimal reception inside the cottage, but it had the best connection in other areas of town, namely in park St. Angelo.
It is located between the cottage and Guede's place. The park is outside the city walls not far from the cottage. Importantly he could get there without going through the populated areas. Defence argued that Guede was there with the phones when the connection occurred. It is possible and in fact probable