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The Massei/Mignini Conspiracy Theory

Could you rephrase, or expand on this? Anglo says it makes a lot of sense, but as worded, it makes no sense to me. If you're on to something, I'd like to at least understand it..... what am I missing?

I was simply suggesting a possibility for why Amanda didn't initially recall that she'd sent a message back to Patrick. When the cops 'discovered' it, they presented it in a context regarding her 'meeting' someone she was now protecting. You can see that in Amanda's testimony and in Matteini, the cops thought the message meant Amanda had agreed to meet Patrick that night. Since her response was actually just acknowledging she didn't have to work, if the cops asked her about a message where she said she was about to go meet someone, that might confuse her, and she wouldn't remember anything of the sort. She'd eventually figure it out and remember the (much differently intended!) response she sent Patrick, but at the very first the reason she might not remember it when prompted by ILE is they told her it was about something else entirely. Just a thought that occurred or re-occurred when going over that testimony again. :)
 
I was simply suggesting a possibility for why Amanda didn't initially recall that she'd sent a message back to Patrick. When the cops 'discovered' it, they presented it in a context regarding her 'meeting' someone she was now protecting. You can see that in Amanda's testimony and in Matteini, the cops thought the message meant Amanda had agreed to meet Patrick that night. Since her response was actually just acknowledging she didn't have to work, if the cops asked her about a message where she said she was about to go meet someone, that might confuse her, and she wouldn't remember anything of the sort. She'd eventually figure it out and remember the (much differently intended!) response she sent Patrick, but at the very first the reason she might not remember it when prompted by ILE is they told her it was about something else entirely. Just a thought that occurred or re-occurred when going over that testimony again. :)
Ok - I think I see it. Amanda: "Look I have no memory of sending a text to anyone which says I was going to meet them." Maybe not that spcifically said, but is this it?
 
What did the cops know/think on 05 Nov?

Anglo - in my book any claim that Ficarra's testimony rendered in English as, we did not know who Lumumba was," is at least going to have to pass the "See you later" test, something I am unqualified to do.

When what is translated says, "We did not know Lumumba," means they didn't know he existed strains credulity. Ficarra was a narcotics officer, Lumumba a bar owner.

My bet is that there should be an "of" inserted between "know" and "Lumumba" in the sentence to capture its meaning - then again I am at the mercy of Italian speakers to confirm.

Just to update you Bill. I agree I should have to find this evidence of Napoleoni, Ficcara and Profazio, given on 27th Feb 2009. It's not looking good so far. Frank's blog for that hearing has disappeared from the ether, none of the Italian news reports Rose found is sufficiently detailed so all we have is The Machine's take on the evidence which you dug up from TJMK.

If anyone has any suggestions, I would love to hear them. Just to explain what's at issue to anyone joining mid-thread: the question is how far the cops' thinking had progressed when the interrogations began. The Machine reports them saying to the court they had focused on Amanda and Raffaele from the start, tailing them and bugging their phones while Ray Turner reports them saying, rather incredibly, that they had never heard of Patrick before that evening, which seems highly improbable. It would just be nice to know what their evidence was. Surely a 400 or so page transcript is not too much to ask?
:D
 
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Just to update you Bill. I agree I should have to find this evidence of Napoleoni, Ficcara and Profazio, given on 27th Feb 2009. It's not looking good so far. Frank's blog for that hearing has disappeared from the ether, none of the Italian news reports Rose found is sufficiently detailed so all we have is The Machine's take on the evidence which you dug up from TJMK.

If anyone has any suggestions, I would love to hear them. Just to explain what's at issue to anyone joining mid-thread: the question is how far the cops' thinking had progressed when the interrogations began. The Machine reports them saying to the court they had focused on Amanda and Raffaele from the start, tailing them and bugging their phones while Ray Turner reports them saying, rather incredibly, that they had never heard of Patrick before that evening, which seems highly improbable. It would just be nice to know what their evidence was. Surely a 400 or so page transcript is not too much to ask?
:D

Well, aside from Rose, there is another genius at IIP who has somehow located the post above and posted it here:

http://www.injusticeinperugiaforum.org/post37933.html#p37933

It's not tremendously helpful on the point at issue but it contains this:

Perugia Shock 27 Feb 2009 said:
MEREDITH KNEW THE MURDERER
The three chiefs referred about their arrival at the house and how they conducted the investigation. It was evident to them that the break-in was a simulation since nothing was stolen, since it was easier to enter from the back side, since there was glass on some clothes and on the sill. Also, according toChiacchiera, it was difficult to aim between squint shutters. And the rock, found in the room, was too close to the window.
And so: the break-in was simulated
, there wasn't any break at the door, Meredith was found almost naked, her cellphones were found in a non-distant garden (close toRaffaele's place) which looked from outside like wild nature.
Given these clues they immediately started to trace the profile of the possible murder and the profile said: SOMEONE SHE KNEW.
Caps in original. So, this is Frank's account of the cops' evidence given on 27 Feb 2009. Is this good enough to show the cops were focused from the outset on leads which flowed from the staged burglary idea?

ETA - the genius in question is Hans btw.
 
Well, aside from Rose, there is another genius at IIP who has somehow located the post above and posted it here:

http://www.injusticeinperugiaforum.org/post37933.html#p37933

It's not tremendously helpful on the point at issue but it contains this:


Caps in original. So, this is Frank's account of the cops' evidence given on 27 Feb 2009. Is this good enough to show the cops were focused from the outset on leads which flowed from the staged burglary idea?

ETA - the genius in question is Hans btw.

Maybe so. It is hard to take anything the cops say at face value. They certainly didn't treat the crime scene as if it was staged. Then again they didn't really treat the entire crime scene very well. Hard to say where incompetence stops and dishonesty starts.
 
Maybe so. It is hard to take anything the cops say at face value. They certainly didn't treat the crime scene as if it was staged. Then again they didn't really treat the entire crime scene very well. Hard to say where incompetence stops and dishonesty starts.
This is the issue, isn't it - it's not as if anyone ever presented evidence that the break in, in fact, was staged. It looked that way. That's all.

And particularly before Meredith was found - what there was at the cottage was a scene that flummoxed everyone: Knox, the postal police, Filomena... the way they made sense of what they saw was, "This must have been staged, because nothing is taken, and the glass looks like it's on top of things..." even though there really is no serious forensic evaluation other than brief observations, "and besides Chiacchiera thinks that the rock in the room could not really have made it between the shutters," not that ANYONE other than Guede really knows the shutter's position/orientation... and not that anyone tested Chiacchiera's hypothesis either...

... even as Massei says that it is doubtful someone would scale the outside wall three times, just to break in. (Which is the sum total of Massei's objection to the reality of the break-in: not that the entry was improbable, but that someone going up three times and down twice specifically would be, "improbable.")

(This is for AngloLawyer) - I wanted to say about me including "The Machine's" view of what the police knew and when did they know it - The Machine really cannot have it both ways. Or at least you have to walk gingerly....

.... the police cannot have both suspected Knox all along because of her behaviour, but also have been taken off guard by Knox's so-called "spontaneous", out of the blue naming of Lumumba. Can he?

But by the time trial and testimony rolls around, "The Cops" writ large had better be singing off of the same song sheet.... this case is tenuous enough against Knox and Sollecito without the cops giving essentially the same testimony, regardless of their doubts at the time (cf. Chiacchiera).
 
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Ok - I think I see it. Amanda: "Look I have no memory of sending a text to anyone which says I was going to meet them." Maybe not that spcifically said, but is this it?

Yeah, but more like:

'You met someone! Admit it! Lying BiARK! We have garble your text message saying so! Who was it?? Garble WHO! Who are you protecting?! Who did you meet ARK you garble GROWL to?' Who did you say you'd meet?

(over and over quite a few times!)

:p

It would have probably been for Amanda not unlike reading Google-translated Italian! She had a semester of Italian and two whole months ('two whole months?') in Italy speaking this language, and they didn't yell bad words to confuse things in those tapes when I took languages in college, I doubt they do today.

It looks to me like Amanda's response to Patrick is basically just 'cool dude, see ya later--bye!' in a foreign language she didn't quite understand and thus didn't come out right--which happens sometimes when learning languages. It was probably just to acknowledge she received Patrick's message and perhaps not a lot of thought went into it, which might be why it came out that way.

However from the testimony what the cops were talking to Amanda about was in a context of her 'meeting' someone. That's hell and gone from her tapping out a response to Patrick that doesn't actually say much of anything, and they're asking about it in loud voices and accusatory tones insisting they have a text message on her phone saying she went to go meet Patrick that night. She probably just didn't make the connection right away. Just something I that I was reminded of going through the testimony again, how that text message was actually believed by cops to be her going to meet Patrick, and thus how they would probably have presented it to her going by her testimony.
 
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Bill Williams said:
(This is for AngloLawyer) - I wanted to say about me including "The Machine's" view of what the police knew and when did they know it - The Machine really cannot have it both ways. Or at least you have to walk gingerly....

.... the police cannot have both suspected Knox all along because of her behaviour, but also have been taken off guard by Knox's so-called "spontaneous", out of the blue naming of Lumumba. Can he?

But by the time trial and testimony rolls around, "The Cops" writ large had better be singing off of the same song sheet.... this case is tenuous enough against Knox and Sollecito without the cops giving essentially the same testimony, regardless of their doubts at the time (cf. Chiacchiera).
I agree with the highlighted point and I have been thinking about this.

The cops' narrative immediately after 06 Nov was that Amanda's confession had come out of the blue, what with all the tea and cakes, who would have thought she would suddenly blurt out what she did? There is one obvious reason for this - the need to be able to treat them as witnesses (with no rights) rather than suspects (with annoying and obstructive ones).

Then later things change with Lumumba being replaced with Guede. The staged burglary, the main premise of the whole thing, with all that brilliant deduction, is shattered. *u**! The cops who wowed the planet with caso chiuso now face oblivion and ridicule as blithering idiots. This is unacceptable, maybe not only because of loss of face but also of fame and fortune too.

Not only must they get a result but they must also show how clever they were and for this it's not enough to stick to the same story of the spontaneous confessions (which required no brains) but to boast about bugging, tailing, the brilliant penetration of the devious defendants' attempts to conceal their involvement, piecing together all the tiny clues which lesser minds might miss.

Not only The Machine but also the cops cannot have it both ways.
 
Caps in original. So, this is Frank's account of the cops' evidence given on 27 Feb 2009. Is this good enough to show the cops were focused from the outset on leads which flowed from the staged burglary idea?

ETA - the genius in question is Hans btw.
This is where I waver back and forth between referring to "the cops" writ large, and "individual cops" writ small.

No, "the cops", writ large, were not, "focused from the outset on leads which flowed from the staged burglary idea".

Chiacchiera interviewed both Sophie Purton AND Amanda Knox on the, "she was killed by someone she met at Hallowe'en," theory during the firs tfew days. So they were following at least TWO lines of inquiry....
 
Three chiefs

This is where I waver back and forth between referring to "the cops" writ large, and "individual cops" writ small.

No, "the cops", writ large, were not, "focused from the outset on leads which flowed from the staged burglary idea".

Chiacchiera interviewed both Sophie Purton AND Amanda Knox on the, "she was killed by someone she met at Hallowe'en," theory during the firs tfew days. So they were following at least TWO lines of inquiry....

The 'three chiefs' referred to in the extract I quoted include Chiacchiera and it his evidence Frank was reporting, along with Profazio and Napoleoni.
 
Rose Montague found this

Rose found a nice fresh article from 7th Nov 2007 which Teddy has roughly translated over at IIP. This is a link to the short thread. The article itself is a PDF attachment to the OP.

http://www.injusticeinperugiaforum.org/post37993.html#p37993

There is some good stuff in this, even if separating journalistic license from fact may impede interpretation. I suspect the source is a cop about halfway down the food chain. The detail about the citofono is clearly wrong as Patrick was completely taken by surprise when arrested and would not have been moronic enough to think removing his name tag from the entry phone system would protect him from arrest. But to the cops arriving on the scene, knowing they had cornered a dangerous killer, a tell-tale sign like that simply reveals the criminal mind at work but cannot stand against Perugia's finest. No one higher up would have said Mignini conducted the interrogation but that detail lends some support to his being involved, albeit in a version distorted by police gossip.

It's also interesting that the three-handed sexual assault is the theory of choice at this early stage. None of the three has lent any support to it: Raffaele wasn't there, nor was Lumumba and Amanda only says she let Lumumba in and stayed in the kitchen listening to screams. This is Mignini's theory, which he stuck to through thick and thin, even if he had to replace one black with another.

The idea there was more than one knife also explains why the cops plucked the large kitchen knife from the drawer. They had formed the view that the large neck wound could not be made by the same knife that made the smaller ones. These wounds must also have fortified the view that more than one person assaulted the victim.

The picture clarifies:
Meredith is 'morally incorruptible' (the virgins' evidence at work again)
Staged burglary
No forced entry
No struggle outside bedroom
Wounds suggesting the use of multiple weapons
Therefore, attacker must have been someone she knew who was admitted by someone else
Phone logs showing traffic between AK and PL and the switching off of phones
Throw in Lumumba's skin colour and his clandestine meeting with Amanda on 5th November and, hey Presto! Caso chiuso!

The reference in the article to DNA, fingerprints and so forth is wrong but it suggests the source believes (imho correctly) that the net had tightened before the interrogations, which were merely the final nail in the coffin.

If Bill can point to another similarly detailed and worked out line of enquiry which the cops were also working on, supported by evidence, I would like to hear about it. What about the burglary? Was there a team investigating the possibility that the burglary was genuine and a sole attacker carried out the murder after burgling the apartment? Is there a shred of evidence to suggest that? I haven't seen any. I suggest the fact the cops may have been interested in who might have been at the Halloween party does not displace the notion that their thinking focused in on Amanda and Raffaele plus AN Other at an early stage, well before the interrogations. That's not even a separate line of enquiry. Once they identified who Amanda exchanged texts with on the night they had their third man already and they did that by 02 Nov (source, Dan O, IIUC).
 
One of the quotes from that article:

De Felice goes on "I have to compliment our men and our women (the interpreters) that in 4 days and 4 nights, with professionalism and integrity, have resolved the case. In these days, we have felt the weight, the pressure of the people of the city, and of the mass media. Everybody wanted an immediate and certain response. It seems to me we have responded, almost immediately".

Yep, Yep.
 
The picture clarifies:
Meredith is 'morally incorruptible' (the virgins' evidence at work again)
Please note, Knox herself contributed to this notion, by backing off on the police questioning about MK's habits. "They asked me if Meredith did anal? WTF?"
Staged burglary
No forced entry
No struggle outside bedroom
Wounds suggesting the use of multiple weapons
Even though Chiacchiera thought the burglary looked staged (observing from the inside, Profazio thought the entry through Filomena's window unlikely, observing from the outside - a slightly different issue) he also suggested that things in MK's room must at least be considered as consensual, because -to him - the relative lack of evidence of a struggle. So, no struggle inside the bedroom, little evidence outside the bedroom, this begins to look like either MK was caught by surprise or knew the attacker enough to initially try a strategy of talking with the guy, rather than actively resisting. The staged burglary becomes 50-50, and no forced entry (through the front door at least) tends to focus the cops on people known to Meredith. Even Chiachierra's, "She could have been trying to talk her way out of it," suggests she was acquainted with who was inside the cottage that night.
Therefore, attacker must have been someone she knew who was admitted by someone else
I think Chiacchiera himself doubts this as late as 1:45 am Nov 6th, the "admitted by someone else" part, and this perhaps is the reason why he counsels Napoleoni to go slower, not rush prematurely into one of the investigative lines to the point of no return back into the others.
Phone logs showing traffic between AK and PL and the switching off of phones
Throw in Lumumba's skin colour and his clandestine meeting with Amanda on 5th November and, hey Presto! Caso chiuso!
All of which become known AFTER Lumumba is on the scene, at least the is no evidence at all that this was known BEFORE Lumumba's name is brought into the interrogation room via SMS message.

The reference in the article to DNA, fingerprints and so forth is wrong but it suggests the source believes (imho correctly) that the net had tightened before the interrogations, which were merely the final nail in the coffin.
IMNSHO incorrectly.

If Bill can point to another similarly detailed and worked out line of enquiry which the cops were also working on, supported by evidence, I would like to hear about it. What about the burglary? Was there a team investigating the possibility that the burglary was genuine and a sole attacker carried out the murder after burgling the apartment? Is there a shred of evidence to suggest that? I haven't seen any.
Me neither - I cannot point to anything suggesting that the cops thought the break-in was anything other than they first leaked to the press. Even Chiacchiera's early theory would call for some faking of a forced entry, or else even Chiacchiera would have a hard time accounting for what they saw.

I suggest the fact the cops may have been interested in who might have been at the Halloween party does not displace the notion that their thinking focused in on Amanda and Raffaele plus AN Other at an early stage, well before the interrogations. That's not even a separate line of enquiry. Once they identified who Amanda exchanged texts with on the night they had their third man already and they did that by 02 Nov (source, Dan O, IIUC).
Agreed.

The thing about these investigations is to purposely KEEP things tenuous, precisely so that one group of cops cannot run off prematurely arresting people according to their own rush to judgment.

I know of a case where a senior investigator was purposely stringing out an investigation, because none of the investigative lines were converging, and there were many. He was trying to manage junior cops each who were positive that their line was correct... trouble was one of the investigators was purposely throwing off suspicion from the real perp, who this junior investigator was trying to protect, to the point of planting little bits of evidence that threw off others. No one suspected that. Yet if the senior guy had gone riding madly off in one direction, they'd have never solved the case and some innocent would have been accused, probably jailed.

The job of the senior person is to manage the junior theories, not try to shoehorn his/her own theory into things. And certainly not go out 47 days later saying, "Look, this thing is not gelling, it's not converging, go get me some evidence people!"
 
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Bill Williams said:
Please note, Knox herself contributed to this notion, by backing off on the police questioning about MK's habits. "They asked me if Meredith did anal? WTF?"

Yes, I have been meaning to say that Knox's own voice must be added to those of the virgins so far a s Meredith's (relative) purity is concerned.

Even though Chiacchiera thought the burglary looked staged (observing from the inside, Profazio thought the entry through Filomena's window unlikely, observing from the outside - a slightly different issue) he also suggested that things in MK's room must at least be considered as consensual, because -to him - the relative lack of evidence of a struggle. So, no struggle inside the bedroom, little evidence outside the bedroom, this begins to look like either MK was caught by surprise or knew the attacker enough to initially try a strategy of talking with the guy, rather than actively resisting. The staged burglary becomes 50-50, and no forced entry (through the front door at least) tends to focus the cops on people known to Meredith. Even Chiachierra's, "She could have been trying to talk her way out of it," suggests she was acquainted with who was inside the cottage that night.

I have seen this before. No sign of a struggle? What? What about the blood everywhere? I mean, not in one place but all over the floor, bloody hand prints in two locations, chair jammed under the desk, mattress jammed into the wall, items disturbed on the night stand, lamp toppled off the night stand (actually I believe it was already on the floor but, hey).

Anyway, we seem to agree here. If the burglary was staged and there is no struggle outside the bedroom then that rules out an attacker barging his way in after she answers the front door. That narrows the field considerably.


I think Chiacchiera himself doubts this as late as 1:45 am Nov 6th, the "admitted by someone else" part, and this perhaps is the reason why he counsels Napoleoni to go slower, not rush prematurely into one of the investigative lines to the point of no return back into the others.

Source?

All of which become known AFTER Lumumba is on the scene, at least the is no evidence at all that this was known BEFORE Lumumba's name is brought into the interrogation room via SMS message.

The cops claimed to have scrutinised Amanda's telephone records. They certainly had access to them and it would be amazing if they had not focused on texts exchanged at or about 8.30 p.m. on 01 Nov. If you could point to all the other lines of enquiry which stopped them getting round to doing that, fine, but otherwise it is fanciful to believe the cops would not have looked closely at her texts.

Me neither - I cannot point to anything suggesting that the cops thought the break-in was anything other than they first leaked to the press. Even Chiacchiera's early theory would call for some faking of a forced entry, or else even Chiacchiera would have a hard time accounting for what they saw.
This agreement has big implications as to the direction of their enquiries.

The thing about these investigations is to purposely KEEP things tenuous, precisely so that one group of cops cannot run off prematurely arresting people according to their own rush to judgment.

This I am not so sure about. Do you imagine a scenario in which different sub-sets of the cops were each straining at the leash to go off and arrest different people and had to be restrained from above? That sounds like a strange way to run an operation like this.

'What!? You've arrested Lumumba? You CRETIN! We aren't anywhere near finished with framing completing our investigations into him!'
 
Even though Chiacchiera thought the burglary looked staged (observing from the inside, Profazio thought the entry through Filomena's window unlikely, observing from the outside - a slightly different issue) he also suggested that things in MK's room must at least be considered as consensual, because -to him - the relative lack of evidence of a struggle. So, no struggle inside the bedroom, little evidence outside the bedroom, this begins to look like either MK was caught by surprise or knew the attacker enough to initially try a strategy of talking with the guy, rather than actively resisting. The staged burglary becomes 50-50, and no forced entry (through the front door at least) tends to focus the cops on people known to Meredith. Even Chiachierra's, "She could have been trying to talk her way out of it," suggests she was acquainted with who was inside the cottage that night.
I have seen this before. No sign of a struggle? What? What about the blood everywhere? I mean, not in one place but all over the floor, bloody hand prints in two locations, chair jammed under the desk, mattress jammed into the wall, items disturbed on the night stand, lamp toppled off the night stand (actually I believe it was already on the floor but, hey).
My bad. The "no struggle" was my imprecise, perhaps misleading way of putting it. Apologies. Point is, that to Chiacchiera's view on day one (Nov 2) even with the signs of a struggle, they were minimal signs, indicating to him that this was perhaps someone known to Meredith - so the "Check out the guys she may have met at Hallowe'en," as well as the, "This could have been someone living at the cottage," possibilities were born in his mind. He may have been (my assumption) the only one who thought the immediate scene suggested a single attacker, again (my assumption) why he may have cautioned Napoleoni to go slow at 1:45 am on the 6th, if Napoleoni was going to go to Mignini with what was essentially a multiple attacker scenario. I mean, that early in the police's thinking, could they REALLY believe Knox was only putting herelf in the kitchen with her hands over her ears? Either way, guilt or innocence, Knox's coerced imaginings did not add up.

Anyway, we seem to agree here. If the burglary was staged and there is no struggle outside the bedroom then that rules out an attacker barging his way in after she answers the front door. That narrows the field considerably.
Even though I am putting this thought into Chiacchiera's mind at 1:45 am - to him that also would seem to rule out Lumumba, not someone known to Meredith. He could have been thinking, "What? Lumumba? Really? That doesn't match the scene I saw back on the 3 1/2 days ago."

I think Chiacchiera himself doubts this as late as 1:45 am Nov 6th, the "admitted by someone else" part, and this perhaps is the reason why he counsels Napoleoni to go slower, not rush prematurely into one of the investigative lines to the point of no return back into the others.
The counseling Napoleoni to go slower source, is my interpretation of what Follain reports in his book. Everything else in that is me trying to squeeze meaning out of Follain's trace remark about what he reported Chiaccheira and Napoleoni talked about at what I am assuming is the 1:45 am mark, before they got Mignini involved. Acc. to Mignini and Napoleoni, they had to get Mignini involved because only he could sign a short term detention order.

The cops claimed to have scrutinised Amanda's telephone records. They certainly had access to them and it would be amazing if they had not focused on texts exchanged at or about 8.30 p.m. on 01 Nov. If you could point to all the other lines of enquiry which stopped them getting round to doing that, fine, but otherwise it is fanciful to believe the cops would not have looked closely at her texts.
Not only fanciful, but post-hoc admissions on their part. And it goes against what they testified to at trial, that (baiscally) Knox caught them off guard with the Lumumba thing.

I think both are bollocks in a sense. I'm probably claiming both that they had no prior-suspicion of Lumumba, but that they also found their heartrates rising when they (Ficarra, Zugarini, Raffo.... maybe it ws Raffo, he was the one thrusting the phone in Knox's face yelling, "Liar!") compared the timestamp of the "See You Later" text with Meredith's last known sighting.

This I am not so sure about. Do you imagine a scenario in which different sub-sets of the cops were each straining at the leash to go off and arrest different people and had to be restrained from above? That sounds like a strange way to run an operation like this.
It's hard NOT to imagine middle level cops straining at the leash, wanting to get some face time with a senior person (like Napoleoni or Chiacchiera) to argue their pet theory, like you and I are doing. This case would be a career case for whoever broke it wide open.

Some dangling and unnoticed thread when pulled at just might cause the whole tapestry to fall apart! Unless I don't know my Italians, I can't help but think that even arm-chair detectives, like you and me, weren't trying to get some face time with the cops in the bars at night to hawk THEIR theories.
'What!? You've arrested Lumumba? You CRETIN! We aren't anywhere near finished with framing completing our investigations into him!'
Who knows? Maybe that was good fodder for "I told you so" when they had to let Lumumba go.

Still the REAL poser here, and to which you and I should be turning our attention, is not WHEN did Lumumba come onto the scene....

.... but WHY did they not let Knox and Sollecito go when Guede came on the scene?

In both our scenarios, there's plenty of room to accuse the cops of fabricating a case against Knox and Sollecito because Knox had the nerve to actually participate in their imaginings at interrogation!

Is that worth 4 years in jail, with a possibility of 22 more?
 
Bill Williams said:
My bad. The "no struggle" was my imprecise, perhaps misleading way of putting it. Apologies. Point is, that to Chiacchiera's view on day one (Nov 2) even with the signs of a struggle, they were minimal signs, indicating to him that this was perhaps someone known to Meredith - so the "Check out the guys she may have met at Hallowe'en," as well as the, "This could have been someone living at the cottage," possibilities were born in his mind. He may have been (my assumption) the only one who thought the immediate scene suggested a single attacker, again (my assumption) why he may have cautioned Napoleoni to go slow at 1:45 am on the 6th, if Napoleoni was going to go to Mignini with what was essentially a multiple attacker scenario. I mean, that early in the police's thinking, could they REALLY believe Knox was only putting herelf in the kitchen with her hands over her ears? Either way, guilt or innocence, Knox's coerced imaginings did not add up.
Well, he may have been but others seem to have gone with the multi-attacker theory and the someone she knew theory and the someone with a key theory, all of which converge nicely on the two who were at the apartment claiming to be baffled by all the signs.

Even though I am putting this thought into Chiacchiera's mind at 1:45 am - to him that also would seem to rule out Lumumba, not someone known to Meredith. He could have been thinking, "What? Lumumba? Really? That doesn't match the scene I saw back on the 3 1/2 days ago."
Why not?

The counseling Napoleoni to go slower source, is my interpretation of what Follain reports in his book. Everything else in that is me trying to squeeze meaning out of Follain's trace remark about what he reported Chiaccheira and Napoleoni talked about at what I am assuming is the 1:45 am mark, before they got Mignini involved. Acc. to Mignini and Napoleoni, they had to get Mignini involved because only he could sign a short term detention order.
Correct hunch on his part. But a minority view nonetheless. Why are we debating the influence or lack of it which this one cop had on proceedings?

Not only fanciful, but post-hoc admissions on their part. And it goes against what they testified to at trial, that (baiscally) Knox caught them off guard with the Lumumba thing.
But Bill, they had a reason for maintaining that story. Even now, in their ongoing appeal, they are still claiming that Amanda was not a suspect until she made the 5.45 statement? Can you believe that? Wtf!

I think both are bollocks in a sense. I'm probably claiming both that they had no prior-suspicion of Lumumba, but that they also found their heartrates rising when they (Ficarra, Zugarini, Raffo.... maybe it ws Raffo, he was the one thrusting the phone in Knox's face yelling, "Liar!") compared the timestamp of the "See You Later" text with Meredith's last known sighting.
We need some new evidence to settle this. Working on it although the leads have all dried up.

It's hard NOT to imagine middle level cops straining at the leash, wanting to get some face time with a senior person (like Napoleoni or Chiacchiera) to argue their pet theory, like you and I are doing. This case would be a career case for whoever broke it wide open.

Some dangling and unnoticed thread when pulled at just might cause the whole tapestry to fall apart! Unless I don't know my Italians, I can't help but think that even arm-chair detectives, like you and me, weren't trying to get some face time with the cops in the bars at night to hawk THEIR theories.
Who knows? Maybe that was good fodder for "I told you so" when they had to let Lumumba go.

Still the REAL poser here, and to which you and I should be turning our attention, is not WHEN did Lumumba come onto the scene....

.... but WHY did they not let Knox and Sollecito go when Guede came on the scene?
Well that is the $64,000 question isn't it, and by analysing their collective state of mind going into, during and coming out the other side of the interrogations we get closer to an answer. For instance, on one view of 'my' theory one could look upon them indulgently and say they had so much that fit together so well they couldn't let go of it when the time came to do so. Trouble is, when you subtract Lumumba they had practically zilch and just went over to making it all up. So no indulgence really. They just lied and continue to do so now.

In both our scenarios, there's plenty of room to accuse the cops of fabricating a case against Knox and Sollecito because Knox had the nerve to actually participate in their imaginings at interrogation!

Is that worth 4 years in jail, with a possibility of 22 more?
That's a 64 cent question: the answer is no.
 
Even though I am putting this thought into Chiacchiera's mind at 1:45 am - to him that also would seem to rule out Lumumba, not someone known to Meredith. He could have been thinking, "What? Lumumba? Really? That doesn't match the scene I saw back on the 3 1/2 days ago."
Because Lumumba had gone into the cottage, Meredith could ONLY have interpreted his advances as hostile, and she would have resisted. There's no known prior relationship which could form the basis for a defensive-defusing-conversation. Given that Guede had been at the flat, I can very well imagine Meredith first adopting a defusing-conversation as her first line of defense.
Correct hunch on his part. But a minority view nonetheless. Why are we debating the influence or lack of it which this one cop had on proceedings?
Because I wish to retire any sense of unanimity among "the cops".
But Bill, they had a reason for maintaining that story. Even now, in their ongoing appeal, they are still claiming that Amanda was not a suspect until she made the 5.45 statement? Can you believe that? Wtf!
If they ARE claiming 5:45 am as the turning point, then they are implying that Mignini is a liar, based on his CNN interview. Mignini does not place himself in the interrogation room at any specific time, but he is the one who berates Ficarra et. al. with his knowledge of the applicable laws, and then proceeds himself to continue, "as only a notary", to collect further "spontaneous" admissions. He doesn't specify "how long" but considering his description, it is easy to imagine the 1:45 am to 5:45 am period being filled with Mignini's obvious concern for Knox's well being and need to make spontaneous admissions.

Where I will join you is that the 5:45 am memorandum IS the working theory that Mignini himself had as of 1:45 am. Note that this working theory still did not know what to make of Raffaele in all this. So much for matching the Nike print....
Well that is the $64,000 question isn't it, and by analysing their collective state of mind going into, during and coming out the other side of the interrogations we get closer to an answer. For instance, on one view of 'my' theory one could look upon them indulgently and say they had so much that fit together so well they couldn't let go of it when the time came to do so. Trouble is, when you subtract Lumumba they had practically zilch and just went over to making it all up. So no indulgence really. They just lied and continue to do so now.
That they continued WITH Knox and Sollecito with Rudy on the scene, and more so with Sollecito than Knox (not that they had a lot on Knox!), is itself all the proof one needs that some sort of fix was in.

That they continued with a "staged break in", required them to theorize about an even more convoluted scenario, requiring Guede to flee, and then Knox and Sollecito to return. I mean, the reaction Guede would have to K and S staging something that would point directly at him... wouldn't Guede have had apoplexy? Wouldn't Guede have mentioned in his skype call, rather than completely exonerating Knox, wouldn't he have told his friend up front, "Those bastards even tried to frame me with that stupid and obvious staged break-in." Come to think of it, wouldn't Guede have said that even if he still maintained Knox's innocence?

Wouldn't Guede have read about the break-in and himself be trying to agree with the cops on its status?
 
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I was simply suggesting a possibility for why Amanda didn't initially recall that she'd sent a message back to Patrick. When the cops 'discovered' it, they presented it in a context regarding her 'meeting' someone she was now protecting. You can see that in Amanda's testimony and in Matteini, the cops thought the message meant Amanda had agreed to meet Patrick that night. Since her response was actually just acknowledging she didn't have to work, if the cops asked her about a message where she said she was about to go meet someone, that might confuse her, and she wouldn't remember anything of the sort. She'd eventually figure it out and remember the (much differently intended!) response she sent Patrick, but at the very first the reason she might not remember it when prompted by ILE is they told her it was about something else entirely. Just a thought that occurred or re-occurred when going over that testimony again. :)

My instinctive trust in police (friends with current police members, spent a lot of time around police as a child due to dads police work, family friends who were police etc etc) meant I assumed the police had shown Knox the text message and asked her what it was about. I therefore couldn't work out why she couldn't remember sending it.

I now realise she couldn't remember sending the message for the very simple reason - the police were saying she had sent a message with specific content, yet she'd sent no such thing.

Of course they now thought she was a liar and protecting someone - they had the text message right there!

Of course they thought she might be forgetting - they had the text message right there!

Of course she thought they might be right about her forgetting - they had the text message right there!

We just need to find out why the police didn't revisit the interogation when they found out Lumumba was inncocent and thus Knox couldn't have been meeting up with him.....
 
Exh 36

@ Kaosium

We were discussing a while back when the electrophoretic runs were carried out for the knife samples. I have been reading Darkness Descending and come across the following.

At location 3480 (e-version) the lawyers and just two scientists met on 9th Nov, 2007 at Stefanoni's lab, the scientists being Patumi and Torricelli. Leaving aside the bull about 'the laboratory buzzing with political energy' (apparently) the book records:

➩ a little speech by Stefanoni, which included a lecture about DNA
➩ the removal of the knife from its plastic bag
➩ inspection under a microscope
➩ identification of small scratches (presumably the ones she was unable to find later)
➩ identification of sample areas A, B, C and D
➩ swabbing with cotton bud (I have asked before how you swab 5 or so cells with a cotton bud expecting to leave anything behind, pick anything up or have any idea what happened - I am bound to have the relative scales all wrong but it's probably like dabbing a few baseballs with Mount Everest or something like that)
➩ TMB test for blood (all negative)
➩ DNA extraction
➩ PCR [NB - no reference in DD to quantification, even though it's crucial to the process and was performed using the Qubit fluorometer, about which she lied but which, on this account, must have been witnessed by Patumi, who may not have understood, and Torricelli who presumably did but was friendly to the persecution)

Strangely, the account continues 'the defence forensic experts weren't interested in a blow-by-blow account. As Stefanoni proceeded, they scoured the lab, on the lookout for contamination.' The only defence expert present was Patumi and he was not a DNA expert, which is why he hired Tagliabracci - who was not present on the 9th.

The book continues at location 3574: 'The evening of 12th Nov was showtime.' Stefanoni 'unveiled the graph produced by the electopherogram'. 'Gasps of shock reverberated around the room' [can a gasp 'reverberate'? - OK forget that]. Then it says 'Sollecito's expert asked for a re-run.' It doesn't say who this expert was. Reading on however, we see that present were (ignoring the lawyers):

Sarah Gino - DNA specialist for Amanda
Carlo Torre - forensic expert for Amanda

There was then apparently a discussion about the possibilities of contamination - and that's about it.

It was suggested to me recently the presence of defence experts meant Stefanoni cannot have got up to any tricks. Well, not on this account if I have understood things so far. Anything could have happened between the 9th and the 12th. She just showed them an egram, not the EDFs which have remained secret throughout, just like the tapes. I don't see any difference at all.


I show below how Massei summarised Gino's evidence on sample B of the knife. Note that Gino's presence on 12 Nov did not prevent her challenging the nature of the sample nor where it was taken from. This is not a point I make to or at you but just a thought out loud. Anyway, if DD is anything to go by, she met have conducted the electrophoretic runs on or before 12 Nov 2007.
 

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➩ swabbing with cotton bud (I have asked before how you swab 5 or so cells with a cotton bud expecting to leave anything behind, pick anything up or have any idea what happened - I am bound to have the relative scales all wrong but it's probably like dabbing a few baseballs with Mount Everest or something like that)


You're off by about a factor of 125 million or more.

Using a sample size of 100ng, a 1 gram cotton bud (that's for a cotton ball, the bud is smaller), 145 gram standard baseball and the mass of everest estimated at 3*10^15 kilograms
 

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