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The Massei/Mignini Conspiracy Theory

I saw that on PMF. It appears the court didn't look at the evidence at all, but ruled that they didn't have jurisdiction so they couldn't try him? Is that right?

That along with the contention that the Florence judiciary must recuse itself as two Florentine judges were 'damaged.'

The PMFers speculated that he wouldn't be re-charged or re-tried, and the state would now drop the case, but I don't know whether that's just their usual wishful thinking. It seems they have to go right back to square one though, and given the speed of the legal process in Italy he'll probably be well past retirement age before a final conviction is ever handed down.
Rolfe.

It could be he's free and clear, but at this point all they would have to do is file charges and schedule another trial, the investigatory stage is complete. Perhaps someone in Turin will take an interest after his debacle in this case as well.
 
Actually, something that was being said in the other thread is really more relevant to this one. Whether Massei really believed anything he wrote in his report.

I don't think he believed everything, but not that he didn't believe anything either. I think he probably thought they were guilty, or at least that Mignini had made a good case in the courtroom, but once he had to try to fit it all together for the Motivations Report he realized there was some serious holes in the case.

Disclaimer - I have not read the Massei report, only the extracts people have posted in the forum. I agree these extracts are irrational, and self-evidently so. And this guy is a judge. What's that all about? I read the speculation about the order of the voting in Italian trials, pointing out that the lay judges vote first. So, by the time either of the professional judges votes, they could already have lost. In that case, do they cast a formal vote with the lay judges to avoid returning a split decison? I don't know.

I've read others who say that the 'lay judges' are mostly lead by the two professional judges, whose guidance they look for throughout the trial process. I suppose it is possible that Massei and Christini realized their innocence and were outvoted, but I think it more likely it happens the other way around. The (professional) judges steer the lay judges around to their own view.

The suggestion was that Massei may realise quite well the whole thing is a crock of nonsense, but was outvoted by the lay judges who had been influenced by Mignini's she-devil stuff, and the lies of the investigators. So he wrote an irrational motivation which could be seen to be nonsense, and which the court of second instance would have no trouble overturning.

This is the value of the Motivations Report in the Trial of the First Instance, it exposes bad cases by forcing the judge to justify the reasoning used. Since this case was so bad, Massei is repeatedly forced to obfuscate shamelessly such as with the Time of Death as he did in that part I linked earlier in this thread. It's funny to count the times and the ways he says 'many factors' influence digestion times to avoid answering the question on how Meredith had everything still in her stomach and nothing in her duodenum more than five hours after eating. I think he must have known at that point the theory he'd allowed through his court couldn't just be jury-rigged a little here and there, it had massive problems.

This would suggest no "conspiracy" as implied by the thread title. Does the theory fly? If Massei had believed Knox and Sollecito to be innocent, would he have continued to remand them in custody?

Sure! It's not him in jail! He's just a judge in the Trial of the First Instance, his job is to make certain all the evidence in introduced and a Motivations written for the automatic appeals court, no matter what he does, another body will be making the final decision, not he.

(There have been simlar speculations about the juduicial bench at the Camp Zeist trial, where again an irrational Opinion was published, with a string of maybes held together by circular reasoning invoked to support a conviction. It's been suggested these judges expected to be overturned on appeal, but then the defence brought the appeal on the wrong grounds, and the whole thing went from bad to worse. However, people on the inside who know these judges don't generally subscribe to that theory.)

Rolfe.

I think instead sometimes the judges allow cases through that defy rational explanation, which is the purpose of the Motivations Reports, to force them to justify what they've decided. I don't know for certain about the Camp Zeist trial, but with the Massei decision no one has managed to fill in the holes better than he could either, so I don't think he purposely wrote a bad Motivations, the case he pronounced a verdict on required it. After all, how would you write that 'rebuttal' to the stomach being full but the duodenum empty at minimum five hours after ingestion with no known confounding factors outside the equivalent of a glass of beer?

If you had to support a guilty verdict, I mean. So no 'well she obviously must have died two hours earlier when the accused had an alibi so they must be innocent!' :p
 
I saw that on PMF. It appears the court didn't look at the evidence at all, but ruled that they didn't have jurisdiction so they couldn't try him? Is that right?

The PMFers speculated that he wouldn't be re-charged or re-tried, and the state would now drop the case, but I don't know whether that's just their usual wishful thinking. It seems they have to go right back to square one though, and given the speed of the legal process in Italy he'll probably be well past retirement age before a final conviction is ever handed down.

Rolfe.
From the news pieces I have read, there have been no dates set. Thus, it would appear that Mignini has slipped loose of this entire case, and has it behind him.
 
Actually, something that was being said in the other thread is really more relevant to this one. Whether Massei really believed anything he wrote in his report.

Disclaimer - I have not read the Massei report, only the extracts people have posted in the forum. I agree these extracts are irrational, and self-evidently so. And this guy is a judge. What's that all about? I read the speculation about the order of the voting in Italian trials, pointing out that the lay judges vote first. So, by the time either of the professional judges votes, they could already have lost. In that case, do they cast a formal vote with the lay judges to avoid returning a split decison? I don't know.

The suggestion was that Massei may realise quite well the whole thing is a crock of nonsense, but was outvoted by the lay judges who had been influenced by Mignini's she-devil stuff, and the lies of the investigators. So he wrote an irrational motivation which could be seen to be nonsense, and which the court of second instance would have no trouble overturning.

This would suggest no "conspiracy" as implied by the thread title. Does the theory fly? If Massei had believed Knox and Sollecito to be innocent, would he have continued to remand them in custody?

(There have been simlar speculations about the juduicial bench at the Camp Zeist trial, where again an irrational Opinion was published, with a string of maybes held together by circular reasoning invoked to support a conviction. It's been suggested these judges expected to be overturned on appeal, but then the defence brought the appeal on the wrong grounds, and the whole thing went from bad to worse. However, people on the inside who know these judges don't generally subscribe to that theory.)

Rolfe.
I have read this theory on JREF an on websleuths, and IIP. It seems entirely possible, that the Massei Motivation was written with the idea of making an opening for the convictions being overturned, which they have been of course.
 
But on Monday, an Italian appelate court decided that Mignini's case was heard by the wrong panel. The previous ruling against Mignini was discharged, with the court saying the case should have instead been heard by a panel in Turin.

At this point, the Turin court has not scheduled a hearing on the case against Mignini.
Somehow, I think they never will. :mad:

mignini_1.jpg


http://www.king5.com/news/cities/seattle/Amanda-Knox-prosecutor-wins-his-own-appeal-134346513.html
 
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You know, while surprised (because I didn't know this was a possible outcome), I'm actually not in the slightest surprised.

Rolfe.
 
You know, while surprised (because I didn't know this was a possible outcome), I'm actually not in the slightest surprised.

Rolfe.
I felt the same. I wonder if this has any meaning whatever RE SC appeal? The Knox continuation thread is open again, and I was going to ask for thoughts on this....
 
The suggestion was that Massei may realise quite well the whole thing is a crock of nonsense, but was outvoted by the lay judges who had been influenced by Mignini's she-devil stuff, and the lies of the investigators. So he wrote an irrational motivation which could be seen to be nonsense, and which the court of second instance would have no trouble overturning.

The problem with this idea is all of the unfair rulings that Massei issued during the trial: no, the defence couldn't have access to Stefanoni's raw data; no, they couldn't have an independent review; no, they couldn't have the computer hard-drives salvaged by the manufacturers.

I think it's quite clear that the first trial was completely run by the prosecution, with Massei in their thrall from the beginning.
 
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The beauty of falsifiable predictions

[The appeal is] crawling along, too. I'd expect a result by the end of the summer. The highest probability is that the double-DNA knife will be excluded due to non-repeatability, the Disco Bus Defence will accomplish nothing, and the bra clasp evidence will be confirmed (with a strong possibility that new findings will show Knox DNA on it as well).

Since all mitigating circumstances have already been included in the light sentences they received, and they did not choose the fast track option, we should expect no change in jail time offered.

It looks like someone has some updating to do.
 
The problem with this idea is all of the unfair rulings that Massei issued during the trial: no, the defence couldn't have access to Stefanoni's raw data; no, they couldn't have an independent review; no, they couldn't have the computer hard-drives salvaged by the manufacturers.

I think it's quite clear that the first trial was completely run by the prosecution, with Massei in their thrall from the beginning.
Spot on Anthony. All the hallmarks of a biased and irrational tribunal.
 
I have read this theory on JREF an on websleuths, and IIP. It seems entirely possible, that the Massei Motivation was written with the idea of making an opening for the convictions being overturned, which they have been of course.

I have seen many, many judgments (perhaps not so many of 400+ pages) just as irrational as this one with no question of conspiracy arising. Often, the only thing which stops me assuring a client their case is a slam dunk is the possibility that the judge turns out to be a lunatic, a frequent occurence. Massei is a classic case of the pre-judged conclusion organising all the evidence to fit with it. Happens all the time.
 
I have seen many, many judgments (perhaps not so many of 400+ pages) just as irrational as this one with no question of conspiracy arising. Often, the only thing which stops me assuring a client their case is a slam dunk is the possibility that the judge turns out to be a lunatic, a frequent occurence. Massei is a classic case of the pre-judged conclusion organising all the evidence to fit with it. Happens all the time.
That's the most disturbing thing I think I've ever heard. Sadly, in my brief time doing court accompaniment for a prosecutor's office, there were also some real jaw-droppers coming out of "the court's" mouth.

I remember distinctly watching one of the court clerks sitting in front of the judge with her back to him, both facing the gallery. After a particularly insane comment from the judge, it was all the clerk could do to not roll her eyes and break out into gaffaws. All of us talked afterward that it was the very first time we had "seen" someone so viscerally struggle to keep her job.

Still, I think that Massei was assigned writing a motivation's report for a decision that he did not think was sustainable, and tried to build a sturdy structure out of sand.
 
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Whom Gods Destroy...

A long time ago when going through this I came to the realization that the impetus of the entire conflagration that engulfed Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito, their families, friends, supporters and...non-supporters was in fact Giuliani Mignini. Not so much Rudy Guede, or even the Polizia di Stato in Perugia, nor the Polizia Scientifica, nor Comodi, Stefanoni, Maresca and or the Kerchers: it was Giuliani Mignini who is a dedicated conspiracy theorist in a land more receptive to them than others, and who held almost unimpeachable power and authority due to his position and reputation. The latter may have been besmirched somewhat due to his...activities attempting to link the (probable) suicide of a Doctor Narducci to the decades-long string of serial murders in the Florence area that became known as the Monster of Florence killings.

He supported the efforts of a detective nee thriller author named Michele Giuttari and tried to connect Narducci's drowning with the deaths with the 'hypothesis' that they were all part of a Satanic coven responsible for the murders. He went beyond the bounds of propriety in doing so, and eventually ended up charging some twenty people as being part of that Satanic conspiracy or being complicit in covering it up. He was eventually convicted in a trial of the first instance in Florence of abuse of office and sentenced to prison, which as you can see a few posts upthread was quashed by the appeal, however not because of lack of evidence, but instead a jurisdiction technicality. I've read conflicting accounts of whether that case will be re-initiated in Turin which was where it was determined it should have been brought to trial, it would be interesting to explore just whether that may ever come to pass, or if no one else dares tangle with the rattlesnake.

Opposing Mignini has always been problematic, with his prosecutor powers and his conspiratorial mind he has a nasty habit of assuming anyone who opposes his 'investigations' are either part of, or trying to cover up, the 'conspiracy' he's trying to uncover. Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi who were writers researching the Monster of Florence case found that out to their horror when they were accused of possibly being the Monster of Florence which caused the Committee to Protect Journalists to weigh in on their behalf long before anyone had ever heard of Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito. During the prosecution of the latter two, Frank Sfarzo, a local Perugian was also eventually the object of his wrath, causing Mignini to demand his blog be shut down, which google complied with, perhaps being as the Google executives had already been convicted by Italian Courts in an unrelated incident involving a Youtube video not being pulled down fast enough. Their sentence for that was suspended, which might have encouraged them to comply with Mignini's demand (through a Florentine Judge--oddly not a Perugian one) lest their interests in Italy been compromised. I include the latter simply to note the wide jurisdiction Italian Prosecutors have, and how they can advance just about any case regardless of how irrational it may appear, as this manslaughter trial against scientists for failing to predict an earthquake suggests.

These two cases are not the only time Giuliani Mignini has made international news, he also chose to file child sex abuse charges against Britta Bulgari, a former Playboy centerfold, when she was dancing in a nightclub in Perugia that fifteen year-old boys had managed to infiltrate. (:p) The owner of the nightclub got off with a slap on the wrist, Britta Bulgari spent sixteen months in prison as a result. The case against her was dropped, and in most instances she'd never have spent a day in prison as Italy has rather lenient programs for those accused of crimes often allowing bail or home arrest, but Mignini insisted that Bulgari was a menace to society and must be imprisoned until the courts were able to hear her case. Italian courts are notoriously slow1 and for those unaware, the age of consent in Italy is 14. Thus she could have had sex with these teen-aged boys and it been entirely legal, but Mignini insisted she be imprisoned until her case came up as dancing she was a danger to them, however the man actually responsible for them being there was let off without prison and only received a fine if I recall correctly.

It is my strong suspicion that had (just about) anyone else been assigned to these cases there would have been no case. In the instance of the Monster of Florence as I recall that Doctor's death was re-opened by Mignini after it was reported a local gang (mafia?) intimidation instance had been punctuated by someone threatening that someone would 'get it like Narducci' who'd been dragged from a lake a decade or so previous and been ruled a suicide. Somehow Mignini managed to 'connect' that with his friend Giutarri's 'investigation' in Florence and started digging up bodies trying to 'prove' there was a satanic conspiracy behind the Monster of Florence murders, which were killings of young lovers that were punctuated by defiling the young women's bodies (and perhaps the men too--dun recall) in rather horrific ways.

In the death of Meredith Kercher, before the coroner was able to determine if there had actually been a sexual assault, Mignini was 'hypothesizing' a ritualistic murder initially involving satanism and eventually masons as he'd find that the Sollecito family had masonic associations. As alluded to in the Burleigh citation, there were initial suggestions that Meredith might even have been a 'willing sacrifice' and part of the night's activities, which was quickly dropped as it must have been realized it was a grave insult to the family of the murdered Meredith. However the modified version of that initial 'theory' seemed to have been impressed upon John Kercher who would list it in his Sunday Times (of London) article during the appeal.3
In the case of Britta Bulgari, who but Mignini would have insisted she be imprisoned for sixteen months out of the 'fear' she was a 'danger' to boys she could legally have sex with? Whether one thinks the age of consent in Italy is a travesty or not, if anyone ought to have been punished it should have been the owner and bouncers actually responsible for those teenagers being in the establishment, not the girl in the dark smoky (the anti-smoking movement hasn't quite penetrated much of Italian society) environment up on stage with the lights on her. Sixteen months in prison is a long time for such an offense, that was thrown out as soon as it was out of the range of...influence of Giuliani Mignini.

He cannot do this alone, no one person could have arranged for all the absurdities that occurred in many of these cases. He has a way of dragging people with him as he goes on these witch-hunts, some of which is due to his power and position, others due to his raw charisma and the educated cultured persona he projects. Those who've met him, even those who've been threatened by him, such as Douglas Preston4 initially tend to blame others or themselves for his wrath, though eventually the benevolent facade breaks down and they see him for what he is. This article of Frank Sfarzo's long before he drew the ire of Mignini suggests that. Since he did in fact draw that malevolent gaze one must download the document which was preserved by his supporters, but for those who don't wish to do that or try to read the article by squinting for it, (start on page 251 if you do--'Master of Suspicion') here's just a short passage from a mostly complimentary article that explains how his demeanor comes across to most--at least initially:

Frank Sfarzo 'Master of Suspicion' 2/4/2009 said:
A real Perugian

Mignini is a real Perugian, his father owned a school of stenography and passed away early. His mother, who was teaching in that school, started running it while raising Giuliani and a younger sister. He started working as a PM in Northern Italy, then they sent him back to his hometown where he bumped into the Narducci case.

Ask anyone in Perugia about Mignini and it's an unanimous voice: a nice person, a great judge. And I mean lawyers, people who work with him every day. Actually against him. He always says good morning and good evening says one of them. But besides being polite what do they think of the way he works, the way he prosecutes? No doubt about that, a great PM is all lawyers' answer. And you hardly hear a blame even for his inclination to see black masses and conspiracies everywhere. Satanism is an old Italian vice involving often powerful associations--informed Perugians explain--and Mignini had the courage to take it on--they say alluding to some deviant Masonic lodges entangled with Satanic groups. In other words Mignini is highly estimated in Perugia for his professional activity. On the contrary, no lawyer would ever think to impeach him, they respect him as an adversary.

Perugia is proud of Mignini, no one would dare to disturb him as he shuttles downtown on his way to the barrack, home, court and crime scenes, usually talking at his cellphone. Journalists never criticise, and in people's opinion it looks like he's more than Braccio Fortebraccio the medieval hero of the town.

Mignini doesn't leak material, Mignini doesn't release interviews. Mignini respects every letter of the law. He loves the law, he is the law. He is a man of high morality, very cultured and deeply religious. When he's done with the work you can see him in a book store where he sinks himself into his beloved history's books especially ancient and contemporary history he specifies. He rarely reads the novels but his favorite one is The Lord of the Rings--a great metaphor for life he underlines as he notices my surprise at he being a fan of the fantasy book.
(italics retained)

So he's no drooling madman, his other qualities invoke loyalty and support, and even cause people to excuse his more obvious failings. However I suspect it is a facade, not that he's not like that most of the time, but at times when he's under stress or attempting to achieve his aims his other side emerges, the one that is fundamentally dishonest and will change the world rather than change his mind about anything. One can see it written all over the case he prosecuted against Amanda and Raffaele, things proven wrong in the Massei court such as the contention Raffaele called the Carabinieri after the Postal Police arrived, or that there was actually 'mixed blood' in the bathroom were still presented as part of his theory, including the absurd and scientifically impossible time of death of about 11:30, which according to reports was abandoned even by his co-prosecutor Comodi who chose to accept a more rational time of death of ~10:00 PM.

However, even with his magnetism drawing down those like Comodi, Stefanoni and Massei in his wake, there's at least one other source of vile corruption that facilitates his deranged theories. As noted above, (and in the first footnote below) Italy has a systematically dysfunctional judicial system. It cannot resolve court cases in a timely manner, and as such the police have been given wide latitude in many places. In Florence his (reportedly) good friend Michele Giuterra had more or less managed to make a career out of the Monster of Florence case--but more so as a writer of thriller novels! He had one published, 'A Death in Florence' which received some notice, and it appears he basically wrote it when 'assigned' to an 'ad-hoc' task force--headed by himself--where he 'investigated it as he pleased. However he was not churning out much in the way of legitimate suspects (though I do think he managed to get some poor shmucks convicted) or leads, but a fair amount of material for his novels--and 'investigations' of his bosses who were frustrated with him and journalists who stood in his way. Mignini, who never actually had anything connecting the Narducci death with the Monster of Florence that didn't appear to arise from anything but his own fevered imaginings, joined up with Giuterra and covered him from a judicial angle, allowing for the (failed) prosecution of about twenty people for being part of, or covering for, the 'Satanic Coven' he thought responsible for the murders.

In the case he prosecuted against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, there's a definite element of corrupt police, again under the legal authority of Mignini who as Perugia's PM is responsible for pursuing signs of corrupt and illegal practices by the Polizia di Stato in his jurisdiction. I myself truly doubt he was responsible for many of the wrongdoings that took place, especially a lot of the bilge produced for the press, notably the weeks after the initial arrest. Also, I doubt the scientific shenanigans that took place were of his devising, suspecting instead that he would insist that 'evidence' of his 'hypothesis' be found, and Stefanoni would try to deliver it and Comodi attempt to sell it to the court, as she generally handled the scientific aspects of the case.

In the Bulgari case, there was something else at work I suspect. Perugia due to its proximity to Rome is, according to some reports, often chosen as where political cases get resolved, being away from Rome but still convenient. During the time she was being imprisoned (reports had Mignini or a cohort following her around the country before she came to Perugia) Italy was beset by the 'Bunga-Bunga' scandal, in which the wealthy and elderly Prime Minister of Italy, Silvio Berlusconi, was reported to be giving parties attended by attractive teen-aged girls who were apparently disinclined to wear clothing. Despite the age of consent in Italy being 14, if there is any element of prostitution involved, the age of consent becomes 18.

As Berlusconi has many political enemies, there was a concerted effort to have him tried for those girls being at those parties as it was thought that if he gave them gifts that would then make him a pimp of sorts. This one got weird as I recall hearing reports of the judiciary actually considering sending military police to have him arrested. In the midst of this, Mignini makes his splash making sure a dancer is punished instead in his hometown, (the enemies of Berlusconi were not interested in prosecuting the girls but making a great show of concern for them) but Mignini was instead making a show out of prosecuting one of similar...disregard for dancing sans vêtements.

Thus it is not just Mignini, there's other elements which have colluded to allow him free reign in Perugia, namely police corruption, a national fascination with conspiracies, a sexually charged environment in a heavily Catholic country, a police force unfettered by oversight by a dysfunctional judicial system and a judiciary which may well be acting with impunity in a political system which has been remarked upon as decaying and as far back as ~1996 I recall hearing reports the Republic of Italy may crumble into component parts, a contention I've rolled my eyes at for years, but it's not an impossibility that the judiciary may think of itself as the 'last bastion' of morality with the barbarians (and Berlusconi! :p) at the gates.

Together they have 'conspired,' not just against Amanda and Raffaele, but also Douglas Preston, Mario Spezi and about another twenty or so people in the Monster of Florance case, as well as a similar number (I lost track long ago how many additional people Mignini filed charges against in 'connection' to this case--somewhere over 20) in the death of Meredith Kercher. The Bulgari case is noteworthy mostly because it also illustrates Mignini's apparent obsession with attractive girls and seeing them punished severely, perhaps as he sees them as lacking in virtue. It's notable that the real Monster of Florence (the Narducci case almost certainly had nothing to do with it) case mainly involved lovers in secluded spots, perhaps to someone like Mignini if those girls had been more 'virtuous' neither they nor their lovers might have been killed?

At any rate, in (his own mind) fighting 'conspiracies' Mignini has become a master of putting one together, and of developing his own. The connection of the death of Dr. Narducci to the Monster of Florence was non-existent until he made a tenuous connection and involved another twenty or so in the conspiracy, going after police chiefs, government officials and journalists in the ever-increasing web. In the Amanda Knox case he created one yet again from two young lovers who he recast as monsters by distorting them beyond recognition with the (mostly) willing compliance of the Italian and British tabloid press along with befuddling the only two American reporters regularly assigned to the case. In the Bulgari case it would be interesting to find out just whether or not those reports of him or his underlings following her around were true, and whether he ever attempted to make any 'connection' to the Bunga-Bunga scandals currently in vogue in Italy at the time. If that sounds crazy, well, it's less so than the suicide of a doctor in Perugia being involved in a Satanic coven responsible for serial killings in Florence or Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito conspiring spontaneously with Rudy Guede to kill and rape her roommate and then twenty or so more people in their family and the press illegally conspiring to free them! :)

The case that was prosecuted by Mignini shows his methods at work, however it must be remembered that the Massei Report (available here) was not completely representative of the case he made against Raffaele and Amanda. It was what Massei decided weighing the presentations of both the prosecution and defense and does not reflect Mignini's every contention. He rejected that Raffaele had called the Carabinieri after the postal police arrived because the defense disproved it in the waning moments of the trial with the cellphone records and the CCTV camera, as well as the 'motive' and the 'mixed blood,' in fact it's one of the curiousities of the case that the best actual forensic 'evidence' (Amanda's smear of blood on the tap) was accepted by Massei as being from her earrings. I've often wondered why he did that. However the Matteini Report is quite likely the Mind of Mignini unfettered, and I suspect the 112 pages of (likely) drivel unleashed upon the Court of Cassation is probably Mignini at work as well. Here's where his own conviction is detailed, it got quashed though it might well come up again in Turin. Here's the restored Perugia Shock, Frank Sfarzo's blog where he keep track of developments in Italy regarding a number of cases involving Mignini and corrupt police and prosecutors. He's gotten something of an education in those subjects the past four years!

The Hellmann-Zanetti Report which disentangled the mess Massei made, is available here and the Conti-Vechiotti Report is available at their names and was translated by Komponisto and Katy-Did of JREF. They also did much of the work on the Hellmann Report along with others such as Teddy and ones I'm afraid I didn't learn the names of. :(

This thread is about the conspiracy orchestrated by a conspiracy theorist, one who's managed to three times get international attention of some sort pursuing his demons. He's dragged along others in his wake, some might have been corrupted by him, others even more corrupt than he. The Amanda Knox case must come up because it revealed most amount of information available about him and his methods, but it's not the purpose of my resurrecting this thread.

Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito, Rudy Guede, Patrick Lumumba and Meredith Kercher are all sorts of people anyone could find in their hometowns or nearby, Giuliani Mignini on the other hand is a fairly unique individual who currently faces the possibility of being retried for his conduct in the Monster of Florance debacle and who may have committed further crimes in the prosecution of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito and might well have abused his power in seeing to it Britta Bulgari spent sixteen months in prison. In addition others such as Michele Giuterra, Monica Napoleoni, Comodi, Stefanoni, Novelli, and lord knows how many more have assisted or permitted his (perhaps literally) insane contrivances of the law and rationality in the course of just the last decade or so.

I came to the opinion a long time ago that there was enough information available it was possible to determine whether or not Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were guilty or innocent, and then that they would highly likely be acquitted. I also had a strong suspicion that this story was not actually about them, but Giuliani Mignini, and long ago wished to explore just what parts of this case were developed through incompetence, corruption, or in some cases actually a conspiracy theorist conspiring himself to bring about the outcomes he desired. As I told Tsig well back in this thread, even if you think Amanda and Raffaele guilty, the police and prosecution sure as hell ensured they'd be set free eventually! Now this thread never developed the acrimony of others of this nature, thus there should be no difficulty exploring the information available and seeing just what evidence is a available that demonstrate corrupt practices by Mignini and his friends in Perugia, and where they might actually have conspired to in order to do so.

They are planning a movie based on Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi's "The Monster of Florence." The ~$4M book advance to Amanda Knox along with another book deal for Raffaele Sollecito. Lifetime reworked the movie they made of the case before the acquittal, and with that kind of advance and the interest of a noteworthy like John Grisham there's sure to be another as well, and what do they all have in common? Giuliani Mignini as the villain.

So just how villainous was he? How much was mistake, delusion, corruption, and how much was his orchestrating events, perhaps with Rudy's letter, Aviello's curious change of testimony, and the endless lies and mistakes produced by the police? Wasn't it he who insisted on the second trip out to the crime scene where they 'found' the bra-clasp, curiously in another place other than where it was filmed when the Polizia Scientifica originally swept down the murder room, and they would 'find' the luminol prints right after Amanda told him about the 'bathmat boogie?'

There is so much information available on this man and his methods, it ought to be possible to determine just what is his most likely role in these travesties of justice, and just what his legacy might be. In looking for something else I came across this interview with FBI legend John Douglas, the father of criminal profiling. I thought it interesting what he said about Mignini and the case he presented:


Krista Errickson John Douglas Interview 9/28/11 said:
KE: When you mean “they”, are you referring to PM Giuliano Mignini?

JD: He certainly spearheaded it. Speaking of behavior reflecting personality – he has similar behaviors of following theory over evidence in the past. He’s got to win, no matter what; even if the truth doesn’t fit and will break the law to win.

The Monster of Florence case is a great example. I understand Mr. Mignini was under indictment for abuse of office, illegal harassment, and the wire-tapping of journalists relating to that case while prosecuting this trial. It boggles the mind why he was not removed from his office. Moreover, that he was/is allowed to continue to his duties.

KE: But the PM didn’t convict her, a jury did.

JD: It’s the way the evidence was presented to the jurors. There was no evidence, there is no evidence.

He, with his accomplices, just twisted everything. The characters of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito who go from hippy-chick and computer dude to Demoness and Slaveboy. Mario Spezi and Douglas Preston from investigative writers to diabolical murderers and conspirators. The 110 lbs Britta Bulgari to abuser of groups of teenage boys. (err BTW don't google this one at work! :eye-poppi)

The same thing happened with the 'evidence' in the Amanda Knox case as John Douglas and Steve Moore have made clear: it wasn't what it was presented as. Mignini may not have been responsible for the technical details, but he's the one that insisted they must fit his 'hypothesis,' and he's the one who blithely moved the time of death from the edge of possibility to the beginning of impossibility in his closing remarks without skipping a beat.

So how much of this was Mignini, the delusional but dedicated conspiracy theorist just twisting actual facts or distorting characters until they fit his idea of a monster, and how much was bumbling incompetence or corrupt practice by he and his cohorts? I think there's probably enough information out there to find out, and to determine just what might become of a man who may well be destined to become the villain in two big budget Hollywood films. I think there's enough information available to put together a good picture of what he's like, what he did, and what he may very well have had others do.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

1
ICJ Intervention p.2 July 2009 said:
The record of non-compliance by Italy in respect of its obligations to ensure a fair trial within a reasonable time is well established. The Council of Europe Committee of Ministers intervened most recently on this issue with Interim Resolution no. 42/2009,7 identifying a total amount of 2183 cases resolved against Italy with regard to excessive length of judicial proceedings. On this occasion, as repeatedly in the past, the Committee of Ministers called upon the Italian authorities to undertake reforms aimed at the roots of the structural problems of the judicial system, recalling that “the dysfunction of the justice system, as a consequence of the length of proceedings, represents an important danger, not least for the respect of the Rule of law." The European Court of Human Rights (European Court) referred to the Italian situation in this respect as a practice incompatible with the Convention.

2
Nina Burleigh New York Post 10/2/11 said:
And on scene was a pale, light-eyed 20-year-old girl who, prosecutors said in their closing arguments last week, had the look of a “she-devil.”

Mignini always included witch fear in his murder theory, and only reluctantly relinquished it. As late as October 2008, a year after the murder, he told a court that the murder “was premeditated and was in addition a ‘rite’ celebrated on the occasion of the night of Halloween. A sexual and sacrificial rite [that] in the intention of the organizers ... should have occurred 24 hours earlier” -- on Halloween itself -- “but on account of a dinner at the house of horrors, organized by Meredith and Amanda’s Italian flatmates, it was postponed for one day.”

Eventually, Mignini’s No. 2, the chain-smoking, no-nonsense Manuela Comodi, persuaded him to drop the references to Satanism. But no one forgot about it, not the jury, not the judge, not the press, not the Perugians, not the court spectators, who could never look at Amanda without wondering whether a whiff of sulfur surrounded her.

3
John Kercher Sunday Times 3/13/11 said:
There are many more factors, almost 20 in all, among them the suspicion that there may have been something ritualistic about Meredith’s death. The prosecutor was criticised for mentioning this, but she was killed on the eve of the Day of the Dead, November 2. Sollecito was said to have Japanese manga comics that described the rape and killing of female vampires. Meredith had been dressed as a vampire to celebrate Hallowe’en.

4
Douglas Preston Interview by Justine Isola The Atlantic c. 2006 said:
As for Mignini himself, I think he’s a sincere man and an honest and incorruptible judge. I don’t think that he’s a bad man. I think he really believed that I was guilty and that Spezi was guilty. I could see that in the interrogation he believed I was a liar. So, yes, I think he was doing his job the best he could. I think in many ways he was badly misled by Giuttari, the police officer who was running the investigation.
 
Kaosium said:
The Hellmann-Zanetti Report which disentangled the mess Massei made, is available here and the Conti-Vechiotti Report is available at their names and was translated by Komponisto and Katy-Did of JREF. They also did much of the work on the Hellmann Report along with others such as Teddy and ones I'm afraid I didn't learn the names of.
I think you got them all except roteoctober.
 
Has anyone ever determined whether Mignini was at Patrick's day-long interrogation on November Sixth? My mind draws a complete blank on the subject, I don't think it has ever come up. It would seem natural that he would be there, but off the top of my head I don't recall anything in the Mattenini report suggesting it, nor was it part of the infamous 'soulless' article.

How could he not have been there, as Perugia's PM and it being his case? Does anyone recall anyone ever questioning Mignini about this? The Lifetime movie, which Mignini might have had some input on judging from the bizarre disproven inclusion of Raffaele calling the Carabinieri after the Postal Police and his interview for the accompanying documentary, does include a scene where Patrick tells him something about having seven sisters and Mignini drifts off, I figured that was just a subtle dig at his 'occult' fascination, but I struggle to think of the entirety of the scene: was that supposedly at his interrogation on the sixth?
 
Whom the Gods make mad

Kaosium

While marvelling at your great post, I confess I am confused slightly. You portray Mignini as a madman, which seems to fit all the available evidence, and elsewhere you have suggested he is not that hot at science, so might actually believe in the BS offered up by Stefanoni et al.

This suggests at first glance that he is someone with an over-active imagination who is easily gulled rather than a conspirator (by which I assume you mean someone who, with others, knowingly framed two innocent people).

I agree it is in interesting question but what is your starting position?
 
Kaosium

While marvelling at your great post, I confess I am confused slightly. You portray Mignini as a madman, which seems to fit all the available evidence, and elsewhere you have suggested he is not that hot at science, so might actually believe in the BS offered up by Stefanoni et al.

On the scientific forensic evidence, my suspicion is he 'hypothsizes' and his loyal minions come up with ways to make his 'theories' come true. Remember in the Lifetime movie how they sat around thinking of what they 'had?' He may well have had some input into that movie, him being interviewed for the accompanying 'documentary' as well as them actually showing Raffaele calling the Carabinieri after the Postal Police arrived, which was disproven by the hard evidence of the CCTV shots and the cell phone records by the defense and accepted by Massei suggests that. Mignini was still pushing that in the appeal, no one else was as it had been conclusively falsified.

What I'm getting at though is that I suspect he actually thinks that 'evidence' is legitimate, and not forensic sophistry or as fraudulent as it is. He 'hypothesizes' that there must be footprints, and Stefanoni 'finds' them, even if they're bleach residue. They fail the TMB so she comes up with the possibility they were heavily diluted, so in Mignini's mind they're real bloody footprints. In fact I suspect he probably got the idea they 'must' have 'been there' because of what Amanda told him about the 'bathmat boogie.' He might well naturally assume that she was trying to 'account' for that 'evidence' with a story, just like Rudy Guede tried to with his story--especially once his lawyer was involved. He can't find any significant evidence of them in the murder room so he 'hypothesizes' a clean-up off a misplaced lamp and a door that didn't get broken down, even if the real forensics (especially the goddamn luminol prints which wouldn't exist if there was one!) almost certainly prove there wasn't.

You've seen Downfall, right? They keep telling him Steiner is answering and moving into position! Not as much him being 'gulled' but them not willing to 'fail' him. :p


Anglolawyer said:
This suggests at first glance that he is someone with an over-active imagination who is easily gulled rather than a conspirator (by which I assume you mean someone who, with others, knowingly framed two innocent people).

I don't suspect it was a 'frame' as much as him going beyond the pale in attempting to convict two people he was convinced were guilty. He 'hypothesized' and his team delivered--as best they could. He wasn't 'gulled' in my view, he just accepted what his 'team' came up with as legitimate, the DNA mixes in the bathroom were mixed 'blood' in his universe.However that also makes him fundamentally dishonest, because he won't change his mind on it, he'll just 'hypothisize' his way out of it, or accept any theory on the evidence that still allows him to be 'correct.'


Anglolawyer said:
I agree it is in interesting question but what is your starting position?

Jumbled, confused and poorly written, didn't you make it through all I spewed out? Whenever I have to include that many links I tend to lose my train of thought, and I needed to do that as some of the links in the OP were dead, an occupational hazard when dealing with powerful kooks I guess! :p

What I am maintaining is that he was the impetus of this, he came up with the whack-a-doodle theory and he and his team tried to prove it. I am not certain of much of anything outside that, and I don't think he was necessarily the only one who thought Amanda might have been involved in the beginning, however he's the one who (eventually) put her at the center of it as the demoness with her boytoys Rudy and Raffaele dancing attendant, and originally wanted some ritualistic sex game/orgy element he had to drop.

If you look at the statements they simply have Amanda being there, not actually involved in the murder. That I suspect was Monica Napoleoni and Giobbi at work, that's actually somewhat believable that she might have been 'involved' in that way: more as an innocent bystander who didn't tell all but wasn't really involved in the murder other than to accompany Patrick there and then cower in the kitchen when it unexpectedly got violent. However what he produced before Matteini bore no resemblance to that, and that would have been his responsibility as Public Minister.

I am uncertain as to who first chose to insist Amanda was involved. Candace Dempsey has Monica Napoleoni taking a quick dislike to Amanda. Giobbi bragged how him seeing her wiggle her hips when putting on her booties, breaking down in tears unexpectedly when planning to visit another location, and eating pizza with Raffaele after the murder made him suspicious. He also says he ordered the two of them brought in for questioning on the night of the fifth so he could 'study' their behavior. However someone also posted an excerpt from 'Darkness Descending' where Mignini supposedly decided Amanda had to be involved when he saw her break down in tears when they were asking about the knives shortly after the murder. It might well have been a confluence of clowns, but it was eventually Mignini who decided to make the bizarro-world case.

However of them, the one that mattered was Mignini, so my suspicion is he probably was the first to be suspicious of Amanda, and the others, including Profazio, chimed in with their agreement, 'yes men' (and women) as it were. What does Follain have to say on the subject of who was first suspicious of Amanda?
 

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