The Marijuana Conspiracy

[WildCat]

Almost all the good, non dirt weed is grown indoors these days.

I doubt even 1/4 of it is.*

Mostly in Canada since they aren't locking people up for 20-30 years for a good sized grow like we do here in Ameria-Prison.

Don't they also lock you up for bringing it in from Canada?

I'm sure the outdoor growers up in Northern Cal could protect their crops from industrial hemp cross-pollination. They are pretty savvy. There are ways dude.

Do tell how to keep microscopic hemp pollen from an outdoor space... particularly if there's thousands of acres of it within a few miles.

*eta: See chart on page 11 of this pdf: http://www.drugscience.org/Archive/bcr2/MJCropReport_2006.pdf
Indoor marijuana is much less than 10% of the crop.

 

[Dandyone]

I doubt even 1/4 of it is.


Don't they also lock you up for bringing it in from Canada?


Do tell how to keep microscopic hemp pollen from an outdoor space... particularly if there's thousands of acres of it within a few miles.

I guess different people have different ideas of what "dirt weed" is. The snobs here in California won't touch outdoor. One mans ceiling is another mans floor. They ship it to the East & Midwest.


Yes they do lock people up for bringing it in from Canada, but the risk is less. Time of exposure to arrest crossing is tiny fraction of exposure to arrest in any growing operation. The words "sitting duck" come to mind. The point remains the same, why is it illegal in the first place? Release all prisoners immediately.

You are correct. Acres of industrial hemp within a couple of miles of an outdoor grow would be a problem, but I believe that could be worked out by the communities in civil manner without anyone being locked up. Local rule is always better than central control in matters of bussiness and commerce.

 

[jaydeehess]

. People could become self sufficient by owning a 10-20 acres of land, with the proper technology. That is not in the interest of powerbrokers who want central control.

You need some math there bud. (get it ? "bud" hah! thank you thank you I'm here all week)

10 acres per person, 7 billion people on earth = 70 billion acres.


Seems the total land mass of the entire earth is 37 billion acres, so even if the entire landmass were arable (it of course isn't) we still only have half as much as Dandyone believes would support all of us in a single crop agriculture.

Soylent green will not be people in Dandyone's world. It will be hemp.

 

[carlitos]

I did the math over in the stundie thread. You have to copy / paste, as I'm on an important conference call

 

[jaydeehess]

ummm, marijuana is still illegal in Canada.

If you go to jail for one year or 20 you are still going to jail.

 

[WildCat]

I guess different people have different ideas of what "dirt weed" is. The snobs here in California won't touch outdoor. One mans ceiling is another mans floor. They ship it to the East & Midwest.

What makes you think indoor is better than outdoor? A properly maintained outdoor garden will outproduce indoors both in quantity and quality.

Did you see the chart? Only 12% of California pot is grown indoors.

You are correct. Acres of industrial hemp within a couple of miles of an outdoor grow would be a problem, but I believe that could be worked out by the communities in civil manner without anyone being locked up. Local rule is always better than central control in matters of bussiness and commerce.

The "civil manner" will likely be the pot growers being forced indoors, because guess what? If it's legalized the hemp market will be many, many times the value of the pot market. In fact, prices for pot would likely plummet to the point of commercial farming being unviable.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

With all due respect, you miss many of my points....

It is okay, because you have purposely ignored the main point that I originally made. If hemp was so cheap, and of better quality we would see large imports of it for use in paper production.

"Why should we have to import it?" (beating you to it)

Fact of the matter is that we import paper from other countries as well as make it ourselves, and so it is a good gauge of what industry feels about the product. As pointed out by other forum members, hemp paper is not of the same quality as the modern production processes which have no yellowing, and often use more than just wood pulp in the production.

Paper mills may stink. My advice is to not live near one, because I will not entertain NIMBY arguments that pretend that one form of industrial production will magically stink less than another form of industrial production.

Everything else I cut out because Kookbreaker has already nailed you to the wall on those counts.

To an earlier point you made about hemp being made into plastic. It is true that hemp can be made into a plastic, a weak easily biodegradable plastic which wouldn't be a good choice to replace petroleum based plastics for long term use. As far as short term biodegradable plastics, corn already has hemp beat on that count; I doubt hemp will ever be a real competitor to corn.

 

[Dandyone]

I did the math over in the stundie thread. You have to copy / paste, as I'm on an important conference call

Well, I don't know about arable land, but if I did the math right, the 7 billion of us all get 18,000 FIVE acres each. But we have to spread out a bit.

510072000000 Square Kilometers = 126041536135719.95 Acres / 7 Billion ~ 18,000 acres / person

148940000 Square Kilometers = 36803875515.719604 Acres / 7 Billion ~ 5 acres each.

Ah, what the heck. Here is arable land:

41440170 Square Kilometers = 10240089015.91418 Acres / 7 Billion ~ 1.5 acres each.

Oops.

So if a family of 5, and 10 workers were sustained by a well designed, well equipped 20 acre land parcel. There is room to spare, and feed the city dwellers at a profit. Thanks

 

[fullflavormenthol]

Is someone literally proposing a hemp based monoculture? Is someone on a skeptics forum promoting any type of a monoculture?

 

[Dandyone]

ummm, marijuana is still illegal in Canada.

If you go to jail for one year or 20 you are still going to jail.

Correct, they should also legalize it, but at least their sentencing laws aren't so draconian. Enter the US prison industrial complex. The US seems to be the world leaders in some dubious areas. War profiteering, health care profiteering, and incarceration pofiteering. Getting rich on other peoples misery is big bussiness in todays US. Dsgusting, I'd say.

 

[Hans]

Dandy you seem to be changing your conspiracy theory to a general dump on America. You might want to take that to the political forum.

Back to your OP. So after your copy and paste conspiracy theory 'facts' have been shredded by real facts do you care to restate why the conspiracy theory has failed and why it would be easier to just try and get public support for Marijuana legalization?

 

[fullflavormenthol]

Back to your OP. So after your copy and paste conspiracy theory 'facts' have been shredded by real facts do you care to restate why the conspiracy theory has failed and why it would be easier to just try and get public support for Marijuana legalization?

This is what I keep telling those who bring up these complex conspiracies. I agree with legalization, but roll my eyes and ignore all these back door tactics. Even if industrial hemp is legal to grow in the United States producers are going to end up having to get a DEA license or some similar scheme. So it will do nothing to help the pro-legalization movement.

 

[Dandyone]

Is someone literally proposing a hemp based monoculture? Is someone on a skeptics forum promoting any type of a monoculture?

I'm not proposing a monoculture. I am proposing the repeal of idiotic rules and highest and best use of our rescources. Hemp could be helpful in this area.

Ceasing the imprisonment of millions of people and cuting off all rescources to the repressive and wasteful mechenisms that are the infrastructure of this insane drug war would be a huge boon to the economy.

I cant think of a bigger waste of rescources than the billions pissed away every week on sneaky drug policemen, lawyers on both sides of the drug courts, judges, bail bonds, prison guards, etc.. The only thing that is even more wasteful and counterproductive is the war machine and so called "defense" industry.

If you took just those two idiotic wastes of rescources away from our economy and put all of the human and material rescources to work for the upliftment of the people, and production of USEFUL goods and services, our standard of living would be raised immeasurably. We are being governed by greedy aholes, and represented by thier lackeys. I think it is time to seriously re-evaluate our positions on these ital matters as a species, and as a country.

 

[carlitos]

So, to summarize:

- Dandyone posted a huge conspiracy theory about hemp.
- It is completely fictional. Nonexistent.
- Dandyone wants pot legalized and onerous drug laws in the US repealed.

Why couldn't Dandyone just say "I want pot legalized" over in the political forum?

Or, perhaps Dandyone could engage the thoughtful rebuttals to the "conspiracy" here? Maybe Dandyone has a hard time focusing for some reason?

 

[kookbreaker]

It is okay, because you have purposely ignored the main point that I originally made. If hemp was so cheap, and of better quality we would see large imports of it for use in paper production.

I use China as an example of this. Hemp is legal and would grow very well there, but despite having a severe softwood shortage China hasn't exactly jumped on hemp or any other fiber plant. Instead they have relied on recycled paper (from the US) and have been planting trees like mad.

"Why should we have to import it?" (beating you to it)

Fact of the matter is that we import paper from other countries as well as make it ourselves, and so it is a good gauge of what industry feels about the product. As pointed out by other forum members, hemp paper is not of the same quality as the modern production processes which have no yellowing, and often use more than just wood pulp in the production.

To be fair, hemp paper can be decent - it just has to have a signifigant (20%) amount of virgin fiber from other sources, usually linen. In addition, to get it to work the way we are used to it has to be treated - i.e. bleached and coated.

When people say paper with hemp doesn't need to be bleached I laugh and say "sure-if you don't mind far-off-white paper". When they say it doesn't need any other treatments I laugh again and say "just don't expect it to go through the printer properly".

Paper mills may stink. My advice is to not live near one, because I will not entertain NIMBY arguments that pretend that one form of industrial production will magically stink less than another form of industrial production.

Everything else I cut out because Kookbreaker has already nailed you to the wall on those counts.

I notice he has been avoiding my comments. In fairness he has been avoiding all arguments to rant about the US and the 'big norporations'. But is claim weren't hard to destroy - its the same stuff hempheads have been pulling out of their butts for a while now. What amazes me is what they think is impressive: "They had to force Virginia planters to grow the stufff!!!!" as if that was some kind of endorsement.

To an earlier point you made about hemp being made into plastic. It is true that hemp can be made into a plastic, a weak easily biodegradable plastic which wouldn't be a good choice to replace petroleum based plastics for long term use. As far as short term biodegradable plastics, corn already has hemp beat on that count; I doubt hemp will ever be a real competitor to corn.

I'd say hemp comes in second in bioplastics, but I don't even think it comes in second. It falls way behind other products.

 

[kookbreaker]

I'm not proposing a monoculture. I am proposing the repeal of idiotic rules

Then stop blowing smoke about conspiracies and telling tall tales about the utility of hemp - honestly will get you a lot further.

and highest and best use of our rescources. Hemp could be helpful in this area.

Not really.

Ceasing the imprisonment of millions of people and cuting off all rescources to the repressive and wasteful mechenisms that are the infrastructure of this insane drug war would be a huge boon to the economy.

I cant think of a bigger waste of rescources than the billions pissed away every week on sneaky drug policemen, lawyers on both sides of the drug courts, judges, bail bonds, prison guards, etc.. The only thing that is even more wasteful and counterproductive is the war machine and so called "defense" industry.

If you took just those two idiotic wastes of rescources away from our economy and put all of the human and material rescources to work for the upliftment of the people, and production of USEFUL goods and services, our standard of living would be raised immeasurably. We are being governed by greedy aholes, and represented by thier lackeys. I think it is time to seriously re-evaluate our positions on these ital matters as a species, and as a country.

The politics forum is over there.

 

[Dandyone]

Dandy you seem to be changing your conspiracy theory to a general dump on America. You might want to take that to the political forum.

Back to your OP. So after your copy and paste conspiracy theory 'facts' have been shredded by real facts do you care to restate why the conspiracy theory has failed and why it would be easier to just try and get public support for Marijuana legalization?

What you call "dump on America", I call "restoring America" and returning to self rule. This would include extremely limited federal incursion into private affairs, mainly local rule, and few if any entaglemnts into foreign politics and wars.

The corporation that you now recognize as America doesn't resemble what was was demanded in the Declaration of Independence or guarenteed by the US Constitution. In the Revolutionary War, we fought to overthrow the corporate British Crown. It is time to take action on all fronts to do it again, this time to overthrow the foreign corporations that have subverted our republic and put the in their place.

I have seen no 'real facts' that dispel the assertion that the destruction of hemp in America was a direct result of a conspiracy carried out by the so called ruling elites whose interests were served by protecting the petro-chemical, and lumber industries, thereby subverting free enterprise. I stand by it.

 

[carlitos]

wow

What you call "dump on America", I call "restoring America" and returning to self rule. This would include extremely limited federal incursion into private affairs, mainly local rule, and few if any entaglemnts into foreign politics and wars.

The corporation that you now recognize as America doesn't resemble what was was demanded in the Declaration of Independence or guarenteed by the US Constitution. In the Revolutionary War, we fought to overthrow the corporate British Crown. It is time to take action on all fronts to do it again, this time to overthrow the foreign corporations that have subverted our republic and put the in their place.

I have seen no 'real facts' that dispel the assertion that the destruction of hemp in America was not a direct result of a conspiracy carried out by the so called ruling elites whose interests were served by protecting the petro-chemical, and lumber industries, thereby subverting free enterprise. I stand by it.

Really, there are almost no words for this. Please read below, or go to page 1 and read in context.

Horsecrap. Hemp is at best a bit player in the cash crop market. Need proof? Look at the countries where hemp is legal (there are a lot of them). They aren't exactly revolutionizing the world.



"Generally Verifiable" means that Frazier usually made it up or exagerrated.



Hemp paper was considered 'of the lowest quality' by Pulp & Paper when they still covered older handmaking techniques. I wonder how many schoolbooks were really being made - from what I know of that era most kids had a slate and chalk.



It was a cash crop. The same could probably be said of any cash crop from that era. Money in coin was sometimes short.



Which goes to show that you had to force people to grow the annoying crop. Virginia needed hemp for sails (and rope). Given the short life of this law I'd guess it wasn't very popular.



Be that is may, it does not mean they made a lot of money from it.



Any paper mill of the era could process fabric to make paper. They much preferred linen, however. They could certainly do hemp, but Herer implies that that was all they did.

Oh, and Franklin's paper mill was not one of the first in America. Rittenhaus beat him to it by decades.



(Pssst, the War of 1812 is only called that in the USA - your amerocentricity is showing)



And we found better materials over time. Hemp has problems with harvesting and rotting. It is also a very difficult fabric to work with.



Bullcrap. Most fabrics of that era were wool and linen.



Wrong on many accounts.



And despite having no competition it then started to decline. 40,000 tons isn't exactly much.



THE NONSENSE!



Not really. Hemp simply wasn't even close to being a threat to paper industry. It was barely being produced in the US, even before it was outlawed



Nonsense. If hemp was 'all that' Nylon would never have gotten off the ground. Last I checked, I don't remember any scrambles at Gimbles in the 1930s for hemp stockings.



Anslinger was already a heavy participant in prohibition.



Magic thinking with no evidence.



Hearst was hardly alone. Journalism of that era was sensationalistic. The New Yorker even had articles about the 'dangers of MJ'



And the proof that these films were made by the same industrialists? none.



Sorry, but the hemp/mj conspiracy is nonsense. Crusaders felt the need to go after something as prohibition was falling flat, MJ made a good scapegoat. Anslinger didn't need any help from industrialists. He could be a psychotic zealot all on his own.

The whole MJ/hemp conspiracy is the wild imaginings of paranoid pot-heads trying to add a level to their 'Legalize It' campaign.

Because it isn't that useful, and it resembles an outlawed plant too much.



You do realize the energy yield per acre with corn is much higher than hemp, yes? Hemp is also much harder to harvest and the US is much better at growing corn.

Claims like this are laughable the moment one gets a single clue about logistics.

Do you honestly think a hemp paper mill is going to be any less smelly? If anything it will be more so as decades of developed pollution controls will be useless. Honestly, I don't think you've ever talked to a papermaker in your life.



Hemp is a cash crop, not a food crop. Your solution just drove up food costs across the board. Nice job.



YES IT DOES! If you want to grow it to any level where it is competitive you need to use these things.



Ah, yes. That 'all out assault' that has fed the US and much of the world.



Wrong. This is nonsense.

 

[Hans]

You stand by a conspiracy shown to be non-existent.

Crackpot huh?

As some one else noted the political forum is thata way. This is the conspiracy fourm. We discuss conspiracy here not politics.

Hey Carlitos we're talking to a crackpot. No reason to try logic and reasoning....mocking and ignoring are our best weapons for this duel.

 

[kookbreaker]

I have seen no 'real facts' that dispel the assertion that the destruction of hemp in America was a direct result of a conspiracy carried out by the so called ruling elites whose interests were served by protecting the petro-chemical, and lumber industries, thereby subverting free enterprise. I stand by it.

Blinders are your only friend it would seem.

Explain to me how hemp was a threat to Dupont again? Some ship ropes.....aannd what else? hemp stockings that were going to come onto the market somehow?

Oh, Hearst gets cited, but according to his biographers he spent much of the late 30's in debt to Canadian paper suppliers after prices jumped. So where is his motive since a hemp paper industry might have saved his butt?