The Loose Change forum

RAMS said:
Hello TAM and thank you for the warm welcome along with so many others. It is good here.

Please forgive me on this that follows, but at least consider. I have been following and studying Islam, for some 30 years now since I run into its tenets in my global wanderings. I have studied and read the Q'uran many times. My own copy is worn out from consulting it.

It is the most violent, hateful, despicable belief system ever devised by man. And it is anything but 'peaceful'. Over 22,000 items within this twisted tome advise murder and death to the 'infidels', not to mention the hideous suppression of anything female.

All of us: From China to the US and everyone in between, are targets of wrath under this belief system.

Excerpts:

(Koran 76:4) "Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers
chains, yokes and a blazing fire. To kill them all the day and night."

(Koran 8:12) Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with
the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the
Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the
Unbelievers and kill them: smite ye above their necks and smite all
their finger-tips off them."

(Koran 8:17) So you did not slay them, but it was Allah
Who killed them, and you did not kill when you smote (the
enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might
confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely
Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

(Koran 2:216) "Warfare is ordained for you, though it is
hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing
which is good for you and it may happen that you love a
thing which is bad for you and must kill. Allah knoweth, you knew not."

.........and so much more. And it is why not one nation, under Islam, has arisen up to police its own since 911. None. Why? Because there is nothing to rise up to, since they ae follwing the dictates of Allah to a 'T'.

We have been brainwashed with so much new age pap to not speak in fact about Isalm that it is a crime.

It is what it is; A murderous, hateful, anti-female, demogogery of utter insanity.

Imagine if the Methodist from Pittsburg are driving to Omaha to set off a car bomb at the Lutherans children's school (such as Islamic factions are doing in Baghdad at this very moment). We simply do not do this in the 21st century, in the rest of the non Islamic world.

Please consider.

........And there are very dark things in store for us in the near future in our Home Place that will be far outside the pale of 911........in the name of Allah...............

Behold such.

Thank you.


Robert A.M. Stephens, LLC ®
NASA Fine Art Documentation Program
Vision Motion Dynamic-FX-FX
behold the rage dot com
________________________________
Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel
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Then I must assume you think that the Christian religon should be done away with as well. It would certainly be easy to cherry pick a few very negative examples from the Bible and provide some examples of their barbarity in the western world. Catholic church and little boys ring any bells?
 
T.A.M. said:
I will, of course, bow to your overwhelming expertese in the field, c/w mine. However, I would rephrase...

"It is those who follow and practice the literal teachings of the Quran that are to be feared, not the peaceful law abiding, gentle people who believe in Allah and Mohammed."

You see I know many Muslims, and amongst all of them there is not the one who would be capable of the harm that is suggested by the literal interpretation of their book.

TAM:)
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Good response but sorta smartass too. Since I spend over 90% of my time out of the country I have come to know many many Muslims. In many chats over coffee in all points of the compass, whether it be Morroco, or Jakarta we have discussed the 'ides of religion' in man. I gently always ask about 911 or Islamic history and its tenets of murder and suppression. The universal response is always, in some facsimile "Allah willing, the earth will abide with love in Allah."

Indeed....... or what is a highjacked airliner for......


Robert A.M. Stephens, LLC ®
NASA Fine Art Documentation Program
Vision Motion Dynamic-FX-FX
behold-the-rage dot com
________________________________
Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel
 
I have many Muslim friends that do not condone violence. The sweeping generalization should be corrected to: Islamic extremists.

As with any religion, you will always get some radicalized elements that will use anything, even archaic texts, to justify abhorrent behavior today.

And welcome RAMS.
 
RAMS said:
Good response but sorta smartass too. Since I spend over 90% of my time out of the country I have come to know many many Muslims. In many chats over coffee in all points of the compass, whether it be Morroco, or Jakarta we have discussed the 'ides of religion' in man. I gently always ask about 911 or Islamic history and its tenets of murder and suppression. The universal response is always, in some facsimile "Allah willing, the earth will abide with love in Allah."

Indeed....... or what is a highjacked airliner for......


Robert A.M. Stephens, LLC ®
NASA Fine Art Documentation Program
Vision Motion Dynamic-FX-FX
behold-the-rage dot com
________________________________
Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel
Click to expand...

While I appreciate the compliment, I am not good enough at sarcasm to be subtle in its presentation. I did not mean any "smartass"ness in my words...they were all genuine, and no insinuation can be found between the lines.

TAM:)
 
For all, before the firestorm begins in raucous exchange.

I am a born again Christian, since May 9, 1972. I truly believe all relgion, in toto, is for people afraid of the dark. Early biblical data is as wild as any other belief system. The Catholic church and its boy screwers no different exception and its silly pope crap as well.

Under Grace, in the new testament, the mantra of believing is service to others before self, let the Lord take care of you, afterwards. There is no dictate to kill non believers. There is no 'infidels'.

We do not do car bombs in Sacramento, against factions of Christian followers from Denver. I believe that is not subject to debate.

In turn, and this too is not subject to debate, nothing on this planet is quite like the arcane and inane savagery of nation Islam.

911 is a glaring example. that is what hijacked airliners are for........

Come on, people.......

Robert
 
T.A.M. said:
While I appreciate the compliment, I am not good enough at sarcasm to be subtle in its presentation. I did not mean any "smartass"ness in my words...they were all genuine, and no insinuation can be found between the lines.

TAM:)
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Thank you, TAM.

Again, good response.

RAMS
 
RAMS said:
It is the most violent, hateful, despicable belief system ever devised by man. And it is anything but 'peaceful'. Over 22,000 items within this twisted tome advise murder and death to the 'infidels', not to mention the hideous suppression of anything female.
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Interesting you should mention that. As a Muslim (Not as devout) and a skeptic, I believe that you have maybe taken the translations a little too seriously. An example would be that 'Jihad' is not holy war, but rather a war between nations. Islam was once an empire that spanned from Spain Eastwards. You probably need to re-read the Quran, and not a translation, and also have some knowledge of the current issues at the time of the writing of the Quran, and maybe you will understand why it was like that. If you speak with a true Muslim, not the terrorists and extremists, but rather the followers of the book, you will see that Islam is anything but despicable and hateful.
 
Rawkarma said:
I have many Muslim friends that do not condone violence. The sweeping generalization should be corrected to: Islamic extremists.

As with any religion, you will always get some radicalized elements that will use anything, even archaic texts, to justify abhorrent behavior today.

And welcome RAMS.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Most of the extremists are coming from extremely oppressive regions, where the average citizen does not have basic freedoms.

There are millions of Muslims that live in North America and Europe, and yet they do not have a problem with Muslim extremists. Why do you think this is?

The Old Testament also commands Christians to kill unbelievers, and yet billions of Christians do not follow God's command. Why?

And of course, welcome to the forum. :)
 
Ripley Twenty-Nine said:
Agreed. Most of the extremists are coming from extremely oppressive regions, where the average citizen does not have basic freedoms.

There are millions of Muslims that live in North America and Europe, and yet they do not have a problem with Muslim extremists. Why do you think this is?

The Old Testament also commands Christians to kill unbelievers, and yet billions of Christians do not follow God's command. Why?

And of course, welcome to the forum. :)
Click to expand...

Very interesting perspective that has me doing some thinking....thank you.

TAM:)
 
Ripley Twenty-Nine said:
Agreed. Most of the extremists are coming from extremely oppressive regions, where the average citizen does not have basic freedoms.

There are millions of Muslims that live in North America and Europe, and yet they do not have a problem with Muslim extremists. Why do you think this is?

The Old Testament also commands Christians to kill unbelievers, and yet billions of Christians do not follow God's command. Why?

And of course, welcome to the forum. :)
Click to expand...

Superb response. Part of that is from my earlier post(s), in that the Q'uran teaches killing. The new and old testaments do not.

As stated, we Christians are under the age of Grace, (mercy given undeserved), New Testament, and are not under some inane order to kill those that differ with our heart's conviction. The Q'uran, however, teaches the opposite. We too, are not an oppressive culture.

Robert
 
The Silver Shadow said:
Interesting you should mention that. As a Muslim (Not as devout) and a skeptic, I believe that you have maybe taken the translations a little too seriously. An example would be that 'Jihad' is not holy war, but rather a war between nations. Islam was once an empire that spanned from Spain Eastwards. You probably need to re-read the Quran, and not a translation, and also have some knowledge of the current issues at the time of the writing of the Quran, and maybe you will understand why it was like that. If you speak with a true Muslim, not the terrorists and extremists, but rather the followers of the book, you will see that Islam is anything but despicable and hateful.
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My bolding.

Isn't that going to be extremely difficult for most of us?
Is there, in fact, nothing in the Koran that says the husband may beat his errant wife?
Given that The Bible also talks a lot of nonsense, perhaps we should all regard primary religious texts as a form of woo? I know I do.
 
For whatever reason went there and tried to comment to some comments in various threads and got this:

"you are not allowed to post at this comment forum."

Okay. Perhaps they have been in touch with LC.

RAMS
 
RAMS said:
Superb response. Part of that is from my earlier post(s), in that the Q'uran teaches killing. The new and old testaments do not.

As stated, we Christians are under the age of Grace, (mercy given undeserved), New Testament, and are not under some inane order to kill those that differ with our heart's conviction. The Q'uran, however, teaches the opposite. We too, are not an oppressive culture.

Robert
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Deuteronomy Chapter 7

1: "When the LORD your God brings you into the land which you are
entering to take possession of it, and clears away many nations before
you, the Hittites, the Gir'gashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the
Per'izzites, the Hivites, and the Jeb'usites, seven nations greater
and mightier than yourselves,

2: and when the LORD your God gives them over to you, and you defeat
them; then you must utterly destroy them; you shall make no covenant
with them, and show no mercy to them.
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How does that not 'teach killing'? I could certainly find others if you like.
 
GlennB said:
Is there, in fact, nothing in the Koran that says the husband may beat his errant wife?
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My friend, who is a very devout Muslim, and I were having a talk about this last year, and he said that beating a spouse or a loved one is not appropriate in any context. Appropriate punishment may be used to discipline children, but beating the child is the absolute last resort (I'm not sure where he got that from).

Of course, with the rules of Islam, they are there because when Islam was a new religion, there were situations which just aren't around these days. One of the rules that comes to mind is the fact that women cannot sing in public. Why is this? Because at the time, society was fairly lawless and a woman could easily be raped if she called attention upon herself. Also, according to my law prof (who teaches gender and religion as well), as well as a few of my devout friends say that women in Islam have more sexual rights than men. A woman has the final word in who her sex partner is and she has the right to be sexually satisfied, otherwise, it's a sin...
 
I was listening to a lecture by Dr. Neil deGrassi Tyson on NPR today, and he said something interesting. He is an astrophysicist (he is one of those responsible for Pluto being downgraded) and was talking about the begining of the universe. "The Universe being small enough to fit on the head of a pin may not make sense to some people, but the universe doesn't care if it makes sense.[sic] Common sense has nothing to do with reality, it only has to do with your experiences." In the context of the twoofers who reject scientific findings over what they preceive, it is very funny.
 
The Silver Shadow said:
My friend, who is a very devout Muslim, and I were having a talk about this last year, and he said that beating a spouse or a loved one is not appropriate in any context. Appropriate punishment may be used to discipline children, but beating the child is the absolute last resort (I'm not sure where he got that from).

<snip for brevity>
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So although it categorically states in no uncertain terms that a husband may beat his errant wife, it's open to human interpretation according to historical and social context? Just like the Bible then.

Therefore both texts are worthless as absolute guides to human behaviour, given the diversity of human situations.

Thou shalt not commit murder (unless it prevents more murder)

Thou shalt not make for yourself an idol (unless it's to decorate a place of worship)

Thou mayest beat thy wife (unless it's taboo in the current social circumstances)

[move to a religion thread please]
 
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