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The Internet vs. The Blind

Well, if their site is not accessible to the blind, then huzzah for the judge.

If, however, it is (as Target claims), then this was unfair.

But it's really not difficult (although it is more expensive) to have an e-commerce site which the blind can use. Large retailers really need to have a clue by now.

But look how many lawsuits it took before they put wheelchair ramps in. They aren't going to spend the money until they need to.
 
Well, if their site is not accessible to the blind, then huzzah for the judge.

If, however, it is (as Target claims), then this was unfair.

But it's really not difficult (although it is more expensive) to have an e-commerce site which the blind can use. Large retailers really need to have a clue by now.

But look how many lawsuits it took before they put wheelchair ramps in. They aren't going to spend the money until they need to.
It's not one of these subjective things you know. You can figure out fairly easily if they broke the law.
 
I'm not being facetious, honest. But if a website must be accessible to the blind, does Publisher's Clearing House have to identify all the blind folks on their mailing list, and send them "You May Already Be A Millionaire!" letters in braille?

It was just something that occurred to me. I don't mean to be rude.
 
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I'm confused. How do you make a website accessible to the blind? Do you have to embed sound files or run voice software on your server that reads each page based on mouse position? Wouldn't it make more sense, in terms of bandwidth use, for that software to run on the user's PC?

If so, I think the suit should be against Microsoft for not providing the software? Oh wait, they already do. This should be a fun lawsuit to watch develop.
 
But it's really not difficult (although it is more expensive) to have an e-commerce site which the blind can use. Large retailers really need to have a clue by now.

You'd think so, but unfortunately, the majority of web developers out there shouldn't be in business in the first place. There's a shortage of skill, so every cowboy out there calls himself a web developer these days and attempts to make websites without the first clue about best practices.

Out of curiosity, I checked Target's homepage with the W3C markup validation. It failed validation. Then I checked this forum. It failed too. I checked the randi.org homepage. Failed.

You can't expect someone who falls at the first stumbling block to implement accessibility standards properly. And apparently, most developers can't code valid XHTML.
 
Nick. What you wrote looks very interesting. However can you write it again for people who do not understand what you are talking about, like me?

This means
What is W3C markup validation?
How it is relevant.
 
This means
What is W3C markup validation?
How it is relevant.

Hi,

Sorry if I was being cryptic, I had a major rant mode going on. The W3C is the World Wide Web Consortium, which sets standards and publishes guidelines for making web pages. They have an automated validation service available at http://validator.w3.org/ which web developers can use to ensure that their HTML and CSS code respect at least a specific subset of those standards. Quoting from their FAQ:

What is Markup Validation?

Most pages on the World Wide Web are written in computer languages (such as HTML) that allow Web authors to structure text, add multimedia content, and specify what appearance, or style, the result should have.
As for every language, these have their own grammar, vocabulary and syntax, and every document written with these computer languages are supposed to follow these rules. The (X)HTML languages, for all versions up to XHTML 1.1, are using machine-readable grammars called DTDs, a mechanism inherited from SGML.
However, Just as texts in a natural language can include spelling or grammar errors, documents using Markup languages may (for various reasons) not be following these rules. The process of verifying whether a document actually follows the rules for the language(s) it uses is called validation, and the tool used for that is a validator. A document that passes this process with success is called valid.
With these concepts in mind, we can define "markup validation" as the process of checking a Web document against the grammar (generally a DTD) it claims to be using.

A web developer--a proper one--should make sure he follows the standards Unfortunately, the vast majority of them don't. Because they are rubbish and lazy but there's enough money around to keep them in business. This ties in with the OP, because among the guidelines published by the W3C are accessibility guidelines for the disabled, in particular for making web sites that can be easily rendered by speech synthetisers, Braille displays or other assistive technologies. A developer who ignores even the simplest guidelines, as the one who did Target's homepage, is very unlikely to have spent any effort on making the website accessible.

As Teek pointed out, it shouldn't be beyond a company the size of Target to hire a decent web development agency, but they probably wanted to do it on the cheap, and got what they paid for: a shoddy website.
 
I'm confused. How do you make a website accessible to the blind? Do you have to embed sound files or run voice software on your server that reads each page based on mouse position? Wouldn't it make more sense, in terms of bandwidth use, for that software to run on the user's PC?

I think the issue could be due to people using things like Flash animations and/or Java Applets in their web design.

There are speech synthesizers that can take things like HTML and vocalize what is seen. (There can still be problems with people using invalid HTML, as another poster suggested, or perhaps not using proper tags for images.) But those synthesizers may not be able to handle links appearing in flash animations, or in applets. (Not sure what the current state of technology is though.)
 
Well, if their site is not accessible to the blind, then huzzah for the judge.

A web developer--a proper one--should make sure he follows the standards Unfortunately, the vast majority of them don't. Because they are rubbish and lazy but there's enough money around to keep them in business. This ties in with the OP, because among the guidelines published by the W3C are accessibility guidelines for the disabled, in particular for making web sites that can be easily rendered by speech synthetisers, Braille displays or other assistive technologies. A developer who ignores even the simplest guidelines, as the one who did Target's homepage, is very unlikely to have spent any effort on making the website accessible.

As Teek pointed out, it shouldn't be beyond a company the size of Target to hire a decent web development agency, but they probably wanted to do it on the cheap, and got what they paid for: a shoddy website.

One of my first arguments on this site was with Claus on disabled access to web sites. It was my baptism of fire against the mighty Claus on a subject I felt strongly about but not skilled in Claus-ing nor a developer myself.

I have since commented on the subject a few times since but must say I felt like a rather feeble fart in a hurricane.

With luck, we should hear the tired old arguments voiced here again.

Teek sums it up nicely. So nicely I think I will quote it again:

"Well, if their site is not accessible to the blind, then huzzah for the judge."
I'll leave you experts to it now I've had my tuppence worth.

Carry one.

ETA: It is interesting in its own right as well as a good source for developers to see how real people cope with real issues about web access when blind or partially sighted and what can be/is being done:

Royal National Institute of Blind People
 
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I'm confused. How do you make a website accessible to the blind? Do you have to embed sound files or run voice software on your server that reads each page based on mouse position? Wouldn't it make more sense, in terms of bandwidth use, for that software to run on the user's PC?

Website-accessibility for the blind is done by ensuring that the page can be easily read and navigated by text-recognition-&-reading-speaking programs, used by the Blind or sight-impaired to navigate the text pages of the Web.
 
Website-accessibility for the blind is done by ensuring that the page can be easily read and navigated by text-recognition-&-reading-speaking programs, used by the Blind or sight-impaired to navigate the text pages of the Web.
[speculation]
I think the best way to go about this would be to have a different version of the page, just simple text for this purpose. Same name as the html file, but call it a bhtml for example. A simple browser add-on would automatically take blind users to the accessible bhtml page.
[/speculation]

Maybe something like this is already done?
 
...snip...

Out of curiosity, I checked Target's homepage with the W3C markup validation. It failed validation. Then I checked this forum. It failed too. I checked the randi.org homepage. Failed.

...snip...

Damn that's reminded me - not checked since we moved to 3.6.8... well there is one that is an obvious quick fix!
 
[speculation]
I think the best way to go about this would be to have a different version of the page, just simple text for this purpose. Same name as the html file, but call it a bhtml for example. A simple browser add-on would automatically take blind users to the accessible bhtml page.
[/speculation]

Maybe something like this is already done?

Only problem with that answer is that if you don't do it carefully enough, Google may suddenly decide that they don't like your web-site, because of what they may see as key-word spamming by the web-site, and so they would punatively bump your web-site down the Results page for searches.
 
[speculation]
I think the best way to go about this would be to have a different version of the page, just simple text for this purpose. Same name as the html file, but call it a bhtml for example. A simple browser add-on would automatically take blind users to the accessible bhtml page.
[/speculation]

Maybe something like this is already done?

I think I've seen it done however in many cases makeing sure that your main site works okey with screen reader software has other advantages.
 
One of the reasons websites aren't accessible to the blind is because the client prefers style over function. As already mentioned, Flash content instead of HTML, or even simple things like copy writing (for example, link readers require a hyperlink to be a description of the thing the link goes to, for example "click here to download our brochure" as the whole link rather than just the "click here" part. A website full of "click here"s tells a link reader user nothing at all but a trendy client might want it that way for style).

And for many, many sites, I think it's absolutely fine. For example, some of my clients are publishers. They might want a microsite for a niche market book - if there are no plans for the book to be released in audio then it's safe to say the client's target market is not the blind, and that the client doesn't need or want to spend extra money making the site accessible on the offchance that one of the visitors can't see. I have no issue with that. It's not cost effective or necessary for EVERY site to cater to the blind because the chances of a blind person visiting that site are pretty slim. So if my clients say "I want a Flash-only site", then it's fine. I always, always point out accesibility issues at the start of every project (not just for the blind, but for people in, say, poorer countries who are less likely to have the fastest machines and the latest browsers). Then the client makes a judgement call based on their priorities and budget.

However, for an e-commerce site, especially one for a huge retailer, there is simply no excuse. Ditto for government sites, public information sites, charities etc. Where the target audience is 'everyone', then that is by definition going to include some blind people.

It's not one of these subjective things you know. You can figure out fairly easily if they broke the law.

That's nonsense. Every day, precedents are set in court and the law is interpreted and examined precisely because it is not necessarily clear that someone broke it. Sometimes it's not even clear what the law is. The law doesn't say "websites have to be accessible to the blind" or "websites must be developed to W3C standards". The law says something along the lines of "retailers must take reasonable steps to ensure their facilities are available to the disabled" or some such. How that is interpreted and implemented is down to lawyers and judges.
 
A quick way for people to see if a speech program can navigate their page it to simply load it in their browser, after setting it to not load images. Target's site looks like this:



Not navigable. The whole page is images, no text. Several of the images have multiple links for different sections, without meaningful tags associated with them, only cryptic page references. This is page death to a vision impaired reader.

In contrast:



Everything meaningful is in text, and it still looks snazzy. A blind person could navigate this as easily as any of us.

A simple test, you'd think massively profitable Target could afford to do it if the non for profit JREF could.
 
so should sites that only sell porn pictures as *.jpg's be forced to make them blind accessible as well?
 
Does a shopping site for the blind have any obligation to be usable by the deaf?

Serious question. I fail to see why any internet site has an obligation to be otherly accessible.

And I'm miffed that pipelineaudio got to the porn before I did.
 

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