The Improbable 9/11 and its followers

[njslim]

Luck, nothing. While the firefighters left the building the Philly Fire Department never stopped pumping water on the fire from a nearby tower. That probably made the difference in that blaze.

Incidentally, after years as a parking lot, the Meridian location has just had a condo tower built on it.

Talked to several Philly FF who were there

According to them that was one scary fire with everything going wrong
(incorrect pressure settings in standpipes, having to drg lenghts of hose
up stairwells to bypass the standpipes, power failing in building)

3 FF died fighting the fire

 

[beachnut]

...
However, if Bazant and Zhou were so successful so quickly in describing an unprecedented event, what took NIST so long in their investigation? On second thought, this is a far-fetched comparison...

Failed to read NIST; try to figure out why it takes time to do real work instead of making up moronic delusions about real events. http://wtc.nist.gov/
The event was over on 911. 19 terrorists killed 8 pilots, took 4 planes, crashed into the largest buildings in the world, or failed. You have had 8 years to figure out 911 which was figured out in minutes by Passengers on Flight 93. 8 years versus minutes.

Now you think probability and statistics which you have zero command of can be used to cast doubt on an event outcome. You want to assign probability after the fact for something like the super bowl after it happen? You and the newest spewer of false ideas on 911 think an event is unlikely to happen after it happen. This is pure nonsense.

Because you and the new guy think aircraft flying fast and 10,000 gallons of jet fuel starting office fires can't do the damage to the WTC there is something wrong with the "official story", the reality based event that the terrorists alone caused because they wanted to kill American women and children because fighting marines is too hard and scary; and the terrorists are chickens who commit suicide before they would fight. Why can't the act more like Gandhi?

However, if Bazant and Zhou were so successful so quickly in describing an unprecedented event, what took NIST so long in their investigation?

Are you an engineer? This post exposes a lack of knowledge and no understanding of models. Bazant and Zhou can describe an event in hours, because they are good at doing a simple model. NIST has specific goal which take a long time to work up; your post proves you failed to read or comprehend NIST reports on the Towers.

Bazant and Zhou are not the only ones who understand how the WTC could collapse. Hundreds of reporst and independant studies have been done, you are being very selective due to poor research and piling on by using lies and heasay from the failed 911 truth cult movement of lies and delusions. The top expert on the WTC is Leslie Robertson. Why does Robertson understand the collapse happened due to aircraft impacts and big fires started by 10,000 gallons of jet fuel? He designed the structural elements, he invented the structural details needed to build the 110 story towers.

You have to refute Robertson who built the WTC towers before you can go further with your delusions on 911.

Bazant and Zhou used a model to show a collapse can happen. Attacking Bazant only exposes your lack of knowledge; a typical 911 truth habit of repeating their short comings.

Good luck with understanding 911; after 8 years you must have serious issues with learning. It took only minutes for the Passengers on Flight 93 to figure out 911 and they did something about it before anyone else did on 911. It took me a little longer to grasp 911 as an event since I was safe on the West Coast, but I understood the terrorists were coming in planes, it took me hours to figure out they did not bring their own planes. It has take you 8 years, and the best you can do is attack models done by engineers which you don't understand in the first place.

The models stand on their own; if you mention Bazant again you must bring evidence to support your opinions. If you attack NIST you must be specific.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]What are the goals of NIST’s investigation into the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings?[/SIZE][/FONT]



[SIZE=-1][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The goals are to investigate the building construction, the materials used, and the technical conditions that contributed to the outcome of the World Trade Center (WTC) disaster. The investigation will serve as the basis for:[/FONT][/SIZE]

• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]improvements in the way buildings are designed, constructed, maintained, and used; [/SIZE][/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]improved tools and guidance for industry and safety officials;[/SIZE][/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]revisions to building and fire codes, standards, and practices; and [/SIZE][/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]improved public safety.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]What are the main objectives of the investigation?[/SIZE][/FONT]



[SIZE=-1][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The primary objectives of the NIST-led technical investigation of the World Trade Center disaster are to determine:[/FONT][/SIZE]

• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]why and how the World Trade Center buildings 1, 2, and 7 collapsed after the initial impact of the aircraft;[/SIZE][/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]why the injuries and fatalities were so low or high depending on location (by studying all technical aspects of fire protection, evacuation, [/SIZE][/FONT]
  [SIZE=-1][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and occupant behavior and emergency response);[/FONT][/SIZE]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]the procedures and practices that were used in the design, construction, operation, and maintenance of the World Trade Center Buildings; and[/SIZE][/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]which building and fire codes, standards, and practices warrant revision and are still in use.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Why is NIST doing this investigation?[/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]NIST scientists and engineers are world-renowned experts in analyzing a building’s failure and determining the most probable technical cause. Since NIST is not a regulatory agency and does not issue building standards or codes, the institute is viewed as a neutral, “third party” investigator.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Additionally, under the National Construction Safety Team Act, signed into law in October 2002, NIST is authorized to investigate major building failures in the United States. The NIST investigations will establish the likely technical causes of the building failure and evaluate the technical aspects of emergency response and evacuation procedures in the wake of such failures. The goal is to recommend improvements to the way in which buildings are designed, constructed, maintained, and used. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]In addition to the investigation into the collapse of the WTC buildings, is NIST conducting related research or programs?[/SIZE][/FONT]



[SIZE=-1][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The investigation is part of a broader NIST response plan to the World Trade Center disaster. In addition to the investigation, NIST also is concurrently conducting two related programs:[/FONT][/SIZE]

• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]a multiyear research and development program to provide the technical basis for improved building and fire codes, standards, and practices; and [/SIZE][/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]an industry-led dissemination and technical assistance program that will provide practical guidance and tools to better prepare facility owners, contractors, designers, and emergency personnel to respond to future disasters. [/SIZE][/FONT]

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs.htm

911 truth pushes nonsense and can't refute NIST, Bazant, or other experts. 911 truth does a poor job at apologizing for terrorists. Why do they ignore terrorists who did 911? Why does 911 truth ignore the terrorist's acts and try to make up conspiracy theories based on ignorance and lies?

 

[Profanz]

Pfft. Next thing you know you people will be claiming huge steel bridges can be taken down by the wind.

The "Galloping Gertie". Hmmm...?

The "Galloping Gertie" hadn't been standing for even half a year. It was an engineering failure. The Twin Towers stood for 30 years. And did the "Galloping Gertie" completely collapse? The pylons too? No.

Why do debunkers continue to make these ridiculous comparisons to try an explain away the 9/11 collapses? Ever think about that? Gotta love these debunkers though. They keep trying and they never give up at this. Everyday, 24/7. I wonder sometimes what they're so worried about.

Oh yeah Travis before I forget. Why did the bridge construction workers nickname the original Tacoma Narrows the "Galloping Gertie"? That's for extra credit.

 

[TJM]

Why do debunkers continue to make these ridiculous comparisons to try an explain away the 9/11 collapses? Ever think about that? Gotta love these debunkers though. They keep trying and they never give up at this. Everyday, 24/7. I wonder sometimes what they're so worried about.

Kinda like when that truther (what was his name?) wanted to know why his BBQ grill doesn't collapse like the towers did.

That was a hoot.

 

[Profanz]

Kinda like when that truther (what was his name?) wanted to know why his BBQ grill doesn't collapse like the towers did.

That was a hoot.

What name?

And your post ain't kinda like. It's makes my point exactly.It's what debunkers do because they got absolutely nothing else.

 

[Thunder]

What name?

And your post ain't kinda like. It's makes my point exactly.It's what debunkers do because they got absolutely nothing else.

umm...aren't YOU...a debunker?

 

[TJM]

Kinda like when truthers keep saying "nothing else" because their arguments have been destroyed.

Got it.

Thanks.

 

[triforcharity]

Can you point me to a collapse due to fire that replicates the global collapse we witness on 9/11 since this is selfevident?

Can you point to me a simmilar situation to compare it to?

 

[triforcharity]

Well, compare a boeing 767 to a missile or a bomb and you would find the similarities to be quite many But yet the collapses are never global and even similar to any of the towers.

Yeah, those missles and bombs usually make much shorter work of buildings they strike, considering their cargo of High explosive.....

 

[triforcharity]

I will not challenge the fact that fires damages buildings.

What I challenge is that how can a unpredictable force like fire
combined with asymetrical damage to a structure lead to such
total and utter sudden failure in every aspect. The structure was
pulverized beyond recognition. Where did the driving force of this
collapse go, all over manhatten it would seem.

Fire is not as unpredictable as you assume. I am no sure where you are getting this information.

However, beyond recognition might be an overstatement.

Just by looking at that photo, you can tell it came from the WTC 1 or 2. No other building that I am aware of, has that type of structure.

Here's another.

This one is of the candlestick parts of the building, which were unique to the WTC towers.

You did get one thing right though, it was spread all over lower Manhattan.

Very Large Image
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Wtc-photo.jpg

Feel free!

 

[triforcharity]

I thought I could clearly depict one of the towers heading for the street, yet
it fell right back into ranks so to speak Oh well. Off to bed.

Nice to make your acquaintance All of you

I did not now there was so many violently defending either theory,
but it would be reasonable to presume its because we don`t discuss it
that much in Norway and the attacks is rumored to have happened in the US

I, and many others, are fairly certain that New York City is geographically located in the USA.

 

[triforcharity]

Ah, I`m sorry for my lack of respect in not reading through the basics first.

The fault is all on my part, I will educate myself some more tomorrow to
not fall into this trap again

Holy ***?!?!?! In Norway you can get an engineering degree is ONE DAY?? And to think, all these other silly engineering schools take 4 YEARS!!

 

[triforcharity]

I grant your request through gritted teeth due to your incredulous worded admission (and I only use the word 'admission' to rub it in a little 'cause we both know it means squat)

Shocking news!! Jref pronounces 9/11 conspiracy not a zero-sum probability (future headline at 911blogger).

All comments in jest of course; thanks for your replies...

Keep folding!! I see about a hundred or so there.....

 

[Travis]

The "Galloping Gertie". Hmmm...?

The "Galloping Gertie" hadn't been standing for even half a year. It was an engineering failure. The Twin Towers stood for 30 years. And did the "Galloping Gertie" completely collapse? The pylons too? No.

Why do debunkers continue to make these ridiculous comparisons to try an explain away the 9/11 collapses? Ever think about that? Gotta love these debunkers though. They keep trying and they never give up at this. Everyday, 24/7. I wonder sometimes what they're so worried about.

Oh yeah Travis before I forget. Why did the bridge construction workers nickname the original Tacoma Narrows the "Galloping Gertie"? That's for extra credit.

And yet a steel suspension bridge had never collapsed from wind prior to that incident. Using Truther logic it couldn't have happened.

So, to summarize:

Unprecedented bridge design + wind = collapse
Unprecedented tower design + uncontrolled fires = collapse

 

[Telltale Tom]

When it comes to the education bit, I graduated technical engineering in 2003 in Trondheim, Norway. Since then I have mostly worked with system controlling of buildings.
Everything from ventilation, temperature, engines etc etc. Its mostly maintenance of these systems through service agreements.

And when I went through technical engineering I built a 2 channel class A power music amplifier, and a electrical 48v trike and a anti-collision system for boats. I also made a PLS regulated moonshine aparatus. I also have the security clearance for and all the certificates for working EX class electronical maintenance on oil plattforms and the basic level of process chemistry controlling therein. I am also currently in semi-active military
duty as sergeant , the first response unit 1 month of training each year.

Newtonian, I do hope you have signed the ae911truth petition. Since we are particularly keen to get engineers with your type of expertise, since we cannot get real structural structural engineers to sign. Perhaps you can be one of our experts and do a paper on maths and real probabilities.

However I am not sure that just because it never happened doesn't mean to say it will not. But perhaps we should ask the guys from BP that question.

I guess that fire protection and sprinklers are on buildings for some reason. If it could never happen then we could save some money by not having them.

 

[Macgyver1968]

Newtonian, I do hope you have signed the ae911truth petition. Since we are particularly keen to get engineers with your type of expertise, since we cannot get real structural structural engineers to sign. Perhaps you can be one of our experts and do a paper on maths and real probabilities.

However I am not sure that just because it never happened doesn't mean to say it will not. But perhaps we should ask the guys from BP that question.

I guess that fire protection and sprinklers are on buildings for some reason. If it could never happen then we could save some money by not having them.

Hehe...you're so funny Tom.

 

[Resume]

Ok, so if we are talking probabilities,

What are the odds of our planet being hit by a mile wide Asteroid? Pretty godamn slim.

SO I wonder what the Dinosaurs thought after one hit 60,000,000 years ago?

T-Rex: Thats bullcrap. It couldn't have been an asteroid. The odds of one that size hitting the earth are astronomically slim.

Dead Triceritops: blank stare.

TAM

Dinosaurs for Truth had 60 million years to prove their claim and they're no closer today than they were then. And someone should tell that Stegosaur he needs to give up growling into that megaphone: no one's listening.

 

[Quad4_72]

Where did Newtonian go?

 

[CORed]

Im sorry , no. This is only my observation. I`ve studied physics/automation/process techniques and math. The closest thing to practical structural engineering would be a welders license. I`m basically here to shout my views and learn about how others view the events. When I look at the events from a strictly mathbased and probability calculation I have found the events to be to consise beyond probability.

I'm not quite sure what you thing the word "concise" means, but you should look it up in a dictionary to find out what it actually means.

You appear to be trying very hard to appear to be edumacated, but you are failing miserably.

 

[JohnG]

In 2009, the team in our office crowded around a computer screen to watch not-quite live pictures of the impacts on WTC 1 and 2. A group of trained professionals, all more than familiar in the design and performance of similar structures. One of us (I can't remember who any more) said "that's going to come down" and not one person disagreed. Wew were, of course, right.

Was her name Sylvia Browne?

What I challenge is that how can a unpredictable force like fire combined with asymetrical damage to a structure lead to such total and utter sudden failure in every aspect. The structure was pulverized beyond recognition. Where did the driving force of this collapse go, all over manhatten it would seem.

Like triforcharity indicated, why do you (and many other people who doubt the so called "official story") maintain that the towers were "pulverized beyond recognition"? I'm no Engineer but those pictures certainly seem to show the wreckage of a very large building to me. What should the wreckage have looked like in your estimation and what do you base that estimate on? Intuition? "Common Sense"? Your experience in viewing the wreckage of 110-story skyscrapers that collapsed in a catastrophic, uncontrolled fashion?