The ideomotor effect and mediumnity

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No, guys, you just didn't have the "personal experience" that I did. That's all...

We are again running around in circles.

Thank you for telling me what I had as experience and what I had not. Without you to remind me I would not be able to, you know, remember stuff.

You have gone beyond the limit of absurd and sunk into compelte irrationality.

You are just putting your finger into your ears and screaming LALALALALA, because YOU DISLIKE what you hear.

There is no discussion possible with you until you recognize that we have also lived for a certain length of time, have had our dark irrational past too, and you are not so special on that.
 
Charles, in cased you missed in in the other thread, here's some information about how "What the Bleep Do We Know" treated quantum physics:

http://dir.salon.com/story/ent/feature/2004/09/16/bleep/index1.html?pn=1
David Albert, a professor at the Columbia University physics department, has accused the filmmakers of warping his ideas to fit a spiritual agenda. "I don't think it's quite right to say I was 'tricked' into appearing," he said in a statement reposted by a critic on "What the Bleep's" Internet forum, "but it is certainly the case that I was edited in such a way as to completely suppress my actual views about the matters the movie discusses. I am, indeed, profoundly unsympathetic to attempts at linking quantum mechanics with consciousness. Moreover, I explained all that, at great length, on camera, to the producers of the film ... Had I known that I would have been so radically misrepresented in the movie, I would certainly not have agreed to be filmed."

More:
http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2004-10/cult-science
http://pubs.acs.org/cen/reelscience/reviews/whatthe_bleep/
http://scitation.aip.org/journals/doc/PHTOAD-ft/vol_59/iss_11/14_1.shtml?bypassSSO=1
 
I did run up a wrong segment when I started my research, which I erroneously posted of the Jacobite forum. I do believe the latest one is correct. Would it make any difference if I said to you the the "minstrel" was an added thought to the vision of the boots in front of a fireplace? Probably not.

My apologies to everyone involed, then. Yes, I am questioning my beliefs, and very much so. I believe everyone has, from all that has been discussed. The point is that it still remains a mystery though...

I will no longer take anyone's time, but before I go, I would just like to share the final part of my story. Was it hot reading? I don't know. Why my son woke up and said what he did? I don't know...

As I said, they are just things that happened to me that I wished to share. If they have provided at least a little food for thought, or even some entertainment, well, that is what a story is for...

In England, after I had returned from my visit with my father to Scotland, he and my sisters took me to Hampton Court, the palace of the Hanoverian kings. In this beautifully preserved palace, we entered the bedroom that had once belonged to Prince William Duke of Cumberland.

“Ah, you son of a bitch...” I thought to myself, while I was in the bedroom that had once been his, “If I’d had the opportunity to enter this room in those days, I would have slit your throat...”

A strange thought. Even stranger was the fact that, while I was there, I began to wonder as to where his soul or spirit might be nowadays. “Suffering in hell, I hope...” I can remember thinking.

When I returned from my trip to Britain, I phoned to make an appointment for a consultation with Aunt Rita; and when I sat myself down in front of her, I gave her a small piece of stone and mortar which I had picked up from the ground of the ruins of Linlithgow Palace.

“What is this?” she asked.

"It is a piece from the ruin of a palace in Scotland.” I told her, “I brought it for you as a gift...”

“Oh really?” she exclaimed, feeling it with her fingers and then putting it on the palm of her hand. “But why is this stone so hot, Charles?”

“Hot?” I exclaimed, “how come?”

“This stone is hot, Charles. Look, it has even scorched my hand...” She showed me the palm of her hand, where indeed there was what seemed like a red mark where a hot object had been.

“What does this mean?” I asked her, at a total loss as to what she was getting at.

“You tell me...” she said.

A thought suddenly occurred to me. “This palace was burned down...” I told her.

“Oh, so that’s why this stone is so hot then...” she said, smiling. Then, placing the small piece from the palace ruin upon her table at the top of the circle of beads, she picked up the Búzios shells, again reciting the words to her prayers in Yoruba, and these were followed by the sound of the shells as they hit the table. I could see that they had formed an arch - an arch that reminded me of the arches at Linlithgow Palace.

“Ohshallah wishes it that you should cross through these arches...” she said, and, after again picking up the shells and shaking them between the palms of her hands, she dropped them upon the table once again. Pointing at four of the shells that had fallen close to each other, with their openings turned upwards, she continued.

“Four is the cabalistic number for Yemanjah, the Queen of the Sea. What I can see here is that your current wife was also associated to you in this past lifetime of yours. It is as if she was extending her hand to you in order to help you, and there is something related to the sea...”

Another thought instantly came to me. “Oh, my goodness...” I exclaimed.

From my briefcase, which was beside me, I took out a magazine I had bought while I was in Edinburgh which had a picture of a painting of Bonnie Prince Charlie meeting Flora MacDonald. In this painting, he was holding her hand and was about to kiss it. Above it, there was a picture of Flora. “Is this her?” I asked anxiously.

Aunt Rita took the magazine and looked intently at the picture.

“Well,” she said, smiling and taking a puff from her pipe, “don’t you think it looks like her?”

There was definitely a strong resemblance, but what amazed me most was the fact that I remembered I had always called my wife “Minha flor” - “My flower”, in Portuguese. Had I done so by subconsciously associating her to Flora? I was fascinated. Could my second wife have been someone who saved my life in a previous one?

“There is more...” she continued, “The Duke who was pursuing you in that lifetime is now one of your sons...”

I was stunned. “The eldest?” I asked.

“No, the youngest...” she replied, “It was necessary that you and your wife should get together in order to bring him back again...”

“Victor...” I exclaimed, in complete awe.

When I arrived home that night, my second wife and our three children were already asleep. After changing into a pair of shorts and a T-shirt, I went to the kitchen for a glass of water. As I was walking back through the living room, my youngest son Victor came walking into the room in his pyjamas, rubbing his sleepy eyes. Then just three or four years of age, he stopped when he saw me, looked up at me fixedly and, in his childish sleepiness, said:

“Dad, I love you very, very much...”

Somewhat taken back, I replied with a smile, “I know, son I love you too...” I said to him.

“Dad,” he went on, “I am your friend...”

“I know, son,” I said to him, getting down on my knees so that I could be closer to his height, “come here and give me a hug...”

When he did, he came up close to my ear and said, almost in a whisper, “I promise I will never misbehave again...”

My eyes instantly filled with tears. He had done nothing wrong that day as far as I could remember. Down on my knees, hugging him, the thought as to why I had given him his name crossed my mind, could it have been “Victor” for “Victorious”? But the main thought that came to me was of what a beautiful lesson I had been given - that an enemy from the past could now be my son in a present life, for the purpose of our spiritual reconciliation and settlement. For what can a father feel for a son, and a son for his father, if not the most unconditional love?

I picked him up in my arms, while the tears still kept pouring out, and carried him to his bed, where I also lay down beside him. Passing my hand through his blond hair, I spent some time looking at his angelical sleeping face until I too fell asleep, and when I awoke the next morning, still lying in his bed, his arms were still wrapped around me in a sound and comforting embrace.

As I said, it's just a story... And it was not the reason I came here. If I have done wrong, or erred with anyone in any way, I deeply apologise and beg you to forgive me.

Charles
 
No, guys, you just didn't have the "personal experience" that I did. That's all...

We are again running around in circles.

True.
I have read that Chico Xavier has solved hundreds of cases for the police.

1. Could you please provide a link to an account that documents one case of Chico Xavier's solving a criminal case for the police?

2. Have you ever heard of Sylvia Browne?
 
Charles, your references to your "personal experiences" are becoming more pointless with every post. Your off handed arrogance is staggering. If you, as you state

hold no doubt in my mind as to the reality of the spiritual phenomena

Then you're done.
 
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Charles, does the use of an Ouija board let the spirits speak through the subconscious every time with anyone, every time with believers, just some of the time, or what? Can you give me an example of who could reliably be sat down at an Ouija board and have spirits talk?

If the spirits control the subconscious some (but not all) of the time, how do we know which messages are from the spirit world and which are just from the unaided subconscious?


Certainly, Charles, before you go, you could answer a few questions about what exactly it is you actually believe. See the above-quoted post which you previously ignored.
 
Debunkly Skerricks Pack (DSPTM)

Meeting tonight at 11:00 at the billibong. Bring dictionaries.

*Slips dictionary into sporran, sets out for billibong*
Just be sure you let the billy boil before you make the tea.

You claim I have been sharing "anecdotes". They are not. They are just "personal experiences"...
Personal experiences are anecdotes:

"Anecdote: short account of an incident (especially a biographical one)" [my bolding]

Evidence, on the other hand, is repeatable by anyone, under circumstances controlled in such a manner as to eliminate unconscious bias or conscious fraud. Read the history of "cold fusion" - here's a short summary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion said:
Cold fusion is nuclear fusion of atoms at conditions close to room temperature, in contrast to the conditions of well-understood fusion reactions such as those inside stars and high energy experiments. Interest in the field increased dramatically after nuclear fusion was reported in a tabletop experiment involving electrolysis of heavy water on a palladium (Pd) electrode by Martin Fleischmann, then one of the world's leading electro-chemists, and Stanley Pons in 1989. They reported anomalous heat production ("excess heat") of a magnitude they asserted would defy explanation except in terms of nuclear processes. They further reported measuring small amounts of nuclear reaction byproducts, including neutrons and tritium. These reports raised hopes of a cheap and abundant source of energy.

Enthusiasm turned to skepticism as replication failures were weighed in view of several reasons cold fusion is not likely to occur, the discovery of possible sources of experimental error, and finally the discovery that Fleischmann and Pons had not actually detected nuclear reaction byproducts.

[again, my bolding]

Note that the people who originally tried to replicate Fleischmann and Pons' results were not Blue Meanies trying to shoot them down; rather, they were wildly enthusiastic at the possibility of cheap, clean, sustainable energy for the entire world. Such a discovery could quite possibly have meant the beginning of Utopia for mankind. But, against all the hopes and best efforts of subsequent researchers, when the experiments were controlled against experimenter bias or outright fraud, the cold fusion results could not be repeated.

When your spiritualistic experiences can be reliably reproduced under circumstances in which any possibility of honest mistake or dishonest manipulation can be eliminated, then you will have something to talk about. Until then, you are recounting only personal experiences, and as long as you decline to try to replicate your experiences under controlled conditions, very few here will take you seriously.
 
billy

buy billy mugs, tshirts and magnets
1) A slang term for bong, mainly used in Australia.
2) A small pot a bushman uses to brew tea and cook soup in.
1) "pass the billy this way mate when you're done with it"
2) -quote from Banjo Patterson's 'Waltzing Matilda'- "And he sang and he watched and waited till his billy boiled"

I did say "bring dictionaries" after all.:D
 
Honestly, I spent nearly ten quid on a 3-day subscription to Burke's Peerage Online and wore my Googling finger down to a stub investigating the Stewarts of Appin, the Gordons of Huntley and the Campbells of Argyll. In the process I discovered that the old Complete Peerage had either

a) made a mistake due to incomplete records or a mix-up between similar names, or

b) published evidence of an incestuous relationship in a sixteenth century noble family (see the other thread for titillating details).

Charles' comment on his two genealogical claims:

I do believe the latest one is correct

...is a poor recompense for my hard work, but it's all of a piece with his habit of ignoring anything that poses a danger to his fantasy world.

As for Charles' mission of spreading hope - well, it seems to be the sort of hope espoused by his favourite medium, Chico Xavier:

“The truth that hurts is worse than the lie that comforts.... Those who can will understand this.”

http://www.csicop.org/specialarticles/show/spiritualism_in_brazil_alive_and_kicking/

Charles, adults shouldn't need comforting lies.
 
Despite all your clever argumentations and what you refer to as "well founded facts", I believe that despite what you are all saying you are quite aware that, as Garrette said, I am not "unintelligent".

No one said otherwise. We did say that you are lying or deluded, and that you are insulting and accusing us without basis, which is entirely true.

For twelve years I frequented a spiritualist center, as I also told you, and hold no doubt in my mind as to the reality of the spiritual phenomena.

No one denied that either.

This is what makes it even funnier, for the views you are all presenting concernng the absurdity of my claim come across to me as equally absurd on your part in all your claims that spirituality is not real.

Your point being...?

The explanation concerning the "Soul-Consciousness" accounts for the phenomena of mediumnity, of reincarnation, of NDEs, OBEs, and it could even be the explanation behind the "placebo" effect, or even what might be behind the physical evolution of the species!!!

All very well and good, except that it's entirely unproven. "MAGIC!" explains a lot of things, but that doesn't matter if you don't first prove that magic exists.

You haven't.

When one sits for a mediumnic consultation, as well as the inevitable "intereference" of the medium, there is also the predisposition of the consultant, so it does not surprise me that your results have not been any more significant in your testings.

Ah, the old sheep/goat effect. A long-time fallback of the believer.

It's been tested for and debunked many, many times.

You claim I have been sharing "anecdotes". They are not. They are just "personal experiences" that I came to encounter

Yes, exactly. Anecdotes.
 
So to summarise: Charles will ignore all the evidence to the contrary because he thinks he's clever.

His personal experiences are better than ours.

You claim I have been sharing "anecdotes". They are not. They are just "personal experiences" that I came to encounter and which you have not,
 
No, guys, you just didn't have the "personal experience" that I did. That's all...

We are again running around in circles.

You didn't have the "personal experience" that I did. That's all...


See how easy that is?
 
Honestly, I spent nearly ten quid on a 3-day subscription to Burke's Peerage Online and wore my Googling finger down to a stub investigating the Stewarts of Appin, the Gordons of Huntley and the Campbells of Argyll. In the process I discovered that the old Complete Peerage had either

a) made a mistake due to incomplete records or a mix-up between similar names, or

b) published evidence of an incestuous relationship in a sixteenth century noble family (see the other thread for titillating details).

Charles' comment on his two genealogical claims:



...is a poor recompense for my hard work, but it's all of a piece with his habit of ignoring anything that poses a danger to his fantasy world.

As for Charles' mission of spreading hope - well, it seems to be the sort of hope espoused by his favourite medium, Chico Xavier:



Charles, adults shouldn't need comforting lies.

Well I appreciate your dedication to facts. I give you an E for effort and putting the E in JREF.

So: By the authority granted to me by no one I award you the JREF Achievement Award.

If you're lucky one of our photoshop gifted members will actually make you one.

:thanks:
 
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"Personal experiences"?

In Charles' very first post on the other thread he used a different term:

my own personal evidences
:rolleyes:

And tsig, thanks for that very kind gesture. In return I'd like to make you a member of the Debunkly Skerrits Pack.
 
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I'll read another crappy excerpt from your book when you read all of our posts in both threads, Charles. Where you get the absolute nerve to ignore what we write, and then expect us to read your big walls of self-serving drivel, I'll never know.

Hmmmmm.....It really makes me wonder....
 
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You will no longer find me at Carol's forum, for I have been very understandably and rightly suspended, though I don't feel I should really be held responsible for all your appalling behaviors. I offered the link to her forum in good faith, and again you all made a shambles of it.


What are you talking about? None of the skeptics visiting that forum after your invitation have been anything but civil.

Even Tinkerman, one of the admins over there who had some rather interesting preconceived notions about skeptics he expressed in a post he has since deleted, said:

I've been following along with the visiting skeptics and reading their thoughtful replies in several forum threads. Such debate is good and healthy, it forces us to think. It is a collision of sorts, between what we "know" and critical thinking.


And yes, as has been noted it speaks volumes that you were the one suspended, not them.
 
Honestly, I spent nearly ten quid on a 3-day subscription to Burke's Peerage Online and wore my Googling finger down to a stub investigating the Stewarts of Appin, the Gordons of Huntley and the Campbells of Argyll. In the process I discovered that the old Complete Peerage had either

a) made a mistake due to incomplete records or a mix-up between similar names, or

b) published evidence of an incestuous relationship in a sixteenth century noble family (see the other thread for titillating details).

Charles' comment on his two genealogical claims:



...is a poor recompense for my hard work, but it's all of a piece with his habit of ignoring anything that poses a danger to his fantasy world.

As for Charles' mission of spreading hope - well, it seems to be the sort of hope espoused by his favourite medium, Chico Xavier:



Charles, adults shouldn't need comforting lies.


Well I appreciate your dedication to facts. I give you an E for effort and putting the E in JREF.

So: By the authority granted to me by no one I award you the JREF Achievement Award.

If you're lucky one of our photoshop gifted members will actually make you one.

:thanks:


E_Medal.png
 
I always ketp myself informed on this kind of subject, but I never partecipated in a online forum (just debted with people face to face).

Now that I have been here for three weeks I find myself staggered. Why do people behave this way? I mean, if you want to believe something then do, nobody's stopping you, but what gives you the impression you can boast the fact that you choose to believe in something with absolutely no reason?

They just skip the questions they find too hard to answer, or repeat slogans over and over.

I am disappointed. And I'm talking to Charles too. Besides some offensive posts (you can always find them), some very reasonable questions have been posed to you. Why won't you answer them? Not one?
 
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