The Historical Jesus III

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This is embarrassing for fundie Christians, because all sources do not agree on any of the magic supernatural woo, but all sources do agree on a mundane rabbi who did nothing but offer down-home sayings and folk healings. This suggests a normal human being who ended up a victim of Roman law, period.

You have contradicted yourself. All sources do not agree on a 'mundane rabbi' when all writings of antiquity agree that Jesus did magic supernatural . WOO".

1. The Pauline Corpus, the Non-Pauline Epistles and Revelation do NOT claim Jesus was a mundane Rabbi

2. In gMatthew Jesus did magical 'Supernatural WOO' and is the Son of "WOO WOO" [a Ghost].

3. In gMark, Jesus did magical 'Supernatural WOO' and is the Son of "WOO WOO" [the God of the Jews.

4. In gLuke, Jesus did magical 'Supernatural WOO' and is the Son of "WOO WOO" [a Ghost].

5. In gJohn, did 'Supernatural WOO' and is "WOO WOO" [God Creator]

6. In Acts, Jesus did magical 'Supernatural WOO' and is the Son of "WOO WOO" [the God of the Jews.

7. In the Pauline Corpus, Jesus did magical 'Supernatural WOO' and is the Son of "WOO WOO" [the God of the Jews]

8.In the non-Pauline Epistles, Jesus did magical 'Supernatural WOO' and is the Son of "WOO WOO" [the God of the Jews]

9. In Revelation, Jesus did magical 'Supernatural WOO' and is the Son of "WOO WOO" [the God of the Jews].

10. Christian writers of antiquity who used the NT Canon also admitted THEIR Jesus of Nazareth was WOO WOO [God in the Flesh].

It is most amusing that you would use sources of established WOO WOO as evidence that your Rabbi was NOT WOO WOO.
 
This song is not relevant to this discussion. Professional historians use both apologetic AND non-apologetic texts to construct a historical model that seems more plausible than implausible. Once one ascertains the common elements in both the non-apologetics and the apologetics, the only thing that emerges in common is an ordinary human folk healer and rabbi who also indulged in a few down-home sayings.

That plausible human model for Jesus, an historical rabbi -- the only model that fits with the principle of parsimony routinely applied by every modern professional historian today -- has nothing whatsoever to do with your song's refrain about "making believe he's there". Your song's refrain is only about the religious woo surrounding the notion that this ordinary human rabbi somehow survived crucifixion and is still around. That is why your song is a red herring. It's about Christianity, not modern historiography, which has been perfected today by many serious professional specialists in ancient history, many of whom are not Christians at all.

The latter group and their careful findings constitute the subject of this thread, not the Christian woo referenced in your song.

Got it?

Stone


It has been pointed out to you at least 100 times here (literally 100 times! ... in fact probably 200 times or more), that the people who write about the historicity of Jesus and who lecture about the historicity of Jesus, are not "historians" in the usual academic sense of that word meaning university academics who lecture and research in various branches of non-religious modern and/or ancient history.

The people who write and teach about the historicity of Jesus, people such as Bart Ehrman, Dominic Crossan, E.P.Sanders and many thousands of others, are Bible Scholars, Theologians, and Christian religious writers in general.

As far as what is consistent in the earliest writing as evidence of Jesus - in all of the biblical writing, what is universally consistent, is that all the writers claimed that Jesus was a multiply miraculous supernatural scion of God. Although it is also certain that none of those biblical writers had ever known any such person, and instead what they were writing was religious belief handed down to them from earlier anonymous unknown believers with no evidence at all beyond religious beliefs in the supernatural.

The so-called "non-apologetics", if by that you mean non-biblical writers such as Josephus and Tacitus, are really not relevant or credible as independent evidence of Jesus for numerous reasons. And especially not credible because none of that writing is known from any author such as Josephus or Tacitus at all. On the contrary, even the most religious of Christian bible scholars accept that the earliest known words that we have attributed to Josephus or Tacitus come from copies made by Christians themselves in the 11th century and later, i.e. a whopping 1000+ years after people such as Josephus, Tacitus, Jesus, James, Paul and any gospel writers had all died!

And even after that utterly fatal fact as far as writers like Josephus and Tacitus are concerned, it is afaik the case that amongst a great mass of historical writing produced by those authors over a number of huge volumes commenting on all sorts of political and other issues of that time, almost nothing at all is said about Jesus or James or any other biblical figures ... those few paragraphs are no more than minimal passing mentions.

And on top of that, there is afaik no evidence at all that authors like Josephus or Tacitus had ever claimed to have personally met, seen, heard or otherwise known anything at all about anyone called Jesus or James (or any other such biblical figure). On the contrary, as far as anyone can honestly tell from their writing, those authors were merely repeating whatever was being said at the time by Christian preachers who were telling tales from the bible. IOW - Josephus, Tacitus and the rest are not independent sources for anything about Jesus, James or others ... they are simply making ultra brief passing mention of what was commonly said by Christians at the time.

Further than that - this same "James" (supposedly the "same" person "James"), who was said in a c.200AD copy of one of Paul's letters to be someone that Paul once met as "save James, the lords brother" (a sentence which was never again repeated anywhere by Paul, and which probably only meant a brother in belief anyway), that same "James" supposedly wrote his own gospel, in which afaik he makes absolutely no claim to having ever been a family brother of Jesus. So even that same "James" apparently never supports any claim of being a relation of Jesus. In fact, afaik, that author "James", never claimed even to have ever met any such person as Jesus!

So, even if the 11th century Christian copying of Josephus and Tacitus was not an interpolated alteration by the later string of copyists (who are universally agreed to have been in the frequent habit of altering any passages about the biblical figures, wherever they later decided to portray it differently than any earlier writing), that same "James" of Paul's letter, was upon the actual evidence, almost certainly not any family brother of Jesus, and almost certainly never knew any such living person as Jesus.

Elsewhere you mentioned "parsimony" claiming that is the criteria for judging what should be accepted as likely or unlikely in respect of Jesus Historicity. But it's not anything so tenuous or so "woolly" as anything called "parsimony" that is necessary ... what is necessary is actual "Evidence"! ... that is tangible, reproducible, credible evidence ... evidence of that which is being claimed (not evidence of something else entirely!) ... and "that which is being claimed" is that Jesus was known to people at the time as a real preaching figure ... but there is actually no evidence at all that any of the gospel writers or Paul or anyone else had ever even as much as falsely claimed to have known or met any living Jesus!

The actual evidence is that none of the believers had ever known any such figure. Instead, Jesus was to all of those biblical and non-biblical writers and unknown figure of religious faith. He was someone that the writers (i.e. the earliest biblical preachers and writers) believed in, as a matter of received religious faith, derived either entirely from their reading of the ancient OT scriptures (as Paul emphatically insists), or from a belief in divine revelations communicated to the faithful by God from the heavens (again, as believed by Paul), and/or as preached stories of messiah beliefs from earlier unknown people for whom there is zero evidence.

The actual "evidence" in all of this subject, is evidence only of religious faith-belief in a messiah figure who was completely unknown to everyone. He was not known to any gospel writer, he was not known to Paul, and he was not known to any non-biblical writer such as Josephus or Tacitus or anyone else (and according to his own gospel, he was apparently not known to "James" either!) ... he was a figure of religious belief.

Whether that belief was in fact based upon a real person, whether the beliefs were true (discounting all the vast mass of impossible beliefs claimed for Jesus), is another matter entirely. But the crucial factor is that despite 2000 years of insistent claims to the contrary, the true fact of the matter is there is actually no evidence of Jesus ever being known to anyone at all!
 
The most likely answers to the data surrounding Jesus the strictly human rabbi come down to a cardinal principle: parsimony. The juxtaposition of unsympathetic non-apologetic texts like Antiquities XX and Annals 15 alongside plainly apologetic texts like the Synoptics reveals a few basic facts that embarrass the more traditional Christians. To wit, both the non-apologetics and the apologetics agree only on a heavily restricted set of facts: Jesus/Yeshua was a real rabbi and folk healer but he only contributed a few down-home sayings and was then crucified under Tiberius. That's all.

Your statement is erroneous. There is no cardinal principle to show that Jesus of the NT was 'strictly' human rabbi.

All stories in the NT about Jesus of Nazareth called Rabbi are in fact 'strictly' fiction/myth.

Jesus called Rabbi is the Son of a Ghost or some kind of God Creator in the NT and Apologetic sources.

Annals 15.44 does not identify any character called a Rabbi or Jesus of Nazareth.

There is no Jesus/Yeshua in Tacitus/Annals 15.

The character called Jesus the Anointed [Christ] in Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1 was alive in the time of Nero.

In addition, there is no claim or tradition that a Jewish Rabbi was called Christ by Jews after he was dead.

The story of Jesus of Nazareth called Rabbi is found ONLY in the established myth/fiction fables called the Christian Bible and Christian sources.

Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius admitted that the Jews expected their Prophesied Messianic ruler c 70 CE or sometime around the War of the Jews.

See War of the Jews 6.5.4---No mention of Yeshua/Jesus the Rabbi who was worshiped as the Lord and Savior by Jews.

Tacitus' Histories 5--No mention of Yeshua/Jesus the Rabbi who was worshiped as the Lord and Savior by Jews.

Suetonius' Life of Vespasian--No mention of Yeshua/Jesus the Rabbi who was worshiped as the Lord and Savior by Jews.

There is simply no history of a Jewish Rabbi called Christ in all accepted historical sources.
 
I think this "Jesus only a rabbi snake oil salesman and quack charlatan" or "Jesus only a pacifist old-age hippie" or "Jesus only a freedom fighter terrorist xenophobic religious zealot" modern day rationalizations by some are nothing but a reenactment of the following chronic ambiguity right from the inception of the whole affair of the insult to sanity called Christianity.

I agree. As Robert Price said in his 1997 Christ a Fiction

"The "historical Jesus" reconstructed by New Testament scholars is always a reflection of the individual scholars who reconstruct him. Albert Schweitzer was perhaps the single exception, and he made it painfully clear that previous questers for the historical Jesus had merely drawn self-portraits. All unconsciously used the historical Jesus as a ventriloquist dummy. Jesus must have taught the truth, and their own beliefs must have been true, so Jesus must have taught those beliefs."

Price say much the same thing in his 2000 Deconstructing Jesus (pp. 15-16):

"What one Jesus reconstruction leaves aside, the next one takes up and makes its cornerstone. Jesus simply wears too many hats in the Gospels – exorcist, healer, king, prophet, sage, rabbi, demigod, and so on. The Jesus Christ of the New Testament is a composite figure (...) The historical Jesus (if there was one) might well have been a messianic king, or a progressive Pharisee, or a Galilean shaman, or a magus, or a Hellenistic sage. But he cannot very well have been all of them at the same time."

Kenneth Humphreys portrayed Mark as stage play and when you think about it does make sense.
 
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I agree. As Robert Price said in his 1997 Christ a Fiction


My favorite bit
"Christ" as a corporate logo for this and that religious institution is a euphemistic fiction, not unlike Ronald McDonald, Mickey Mouse, or Joe Camel, the purpose of which is to get you to swallow a whole raft of beliefs, attitudes, and behaviors by an act of simple faith, short-circuiting the dangerous process of thinking the issues out to your own conclusions.​


I am also reminded that people who overcame their addictions and gave up the product Joe Camel used to peddle, still enjoy secondhand WHIFFS OF SMOKE even if they no longer swallow entire fags.
 
Jesus of Nazareth is a fiction/myth character in and out the Christian Bible.

No accepted historical source of antiquity mentioned a character called Jesus of Nazareth who actually lived in Galilee at any time.

One can only speculate that there was an historical Jesus of Nazareth because there is no accepted historical source of antiquity which acknowledged a character called Jesus of Nazareth.

In and out the Bible Christian writers ADMITTED THEIR Jesus of Nazareth was born of a Ghost, God Creator and the Lord from heaven.

Amazingly, non-Christian writers of antiquity had no historical evidence to contradict the ghost stories of Jesus.

It is obvious that the Jesus stories in the NT [including the Pauline Corpus] are very late non-contemporary myth/fiction fables.

Jesus of Nazareth is no different to Romulus of Rome.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Romulus*.html

Plutarch's Romulus
Now there was an oracle of Tethys in Tuscany, from which there was brought to Tarchetius a response that a virgin must have intercourse with this phantom, and she should bear a son most illustrious for his valour, and of surpassing good fortune and strength.

Tarchetius, accordingly, told the prophecy to one of his daughters, and bade her consort with the phantom...


Now examine the birth of Jesus of Nazareth in the ghost story called gLuke.

gLuke 1
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest

The claim that Jesus was born of a Ghost and a virgin was just as credible in antiquity as the belief that Romulus was born of a Phantom and a virgin.

Jesus of Nazareth and Romulus of Rome never had any real existence.
 
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Since no one here has addressed the points Skwills makes on that Carrier-discussion page, it's past time to provide them verbatim below ====>>>>>

The discussion in the latter half of that page you cite is illuminating. No myther there honestly grapples with the points made by Skwills. But Skwills is dead right there.

================>>>>

And here are the points Skwills makes:

"How is this Logic? There is no evidence at all for that Mythical Jesus, and no evidence the early followers worshipped a celestial Deity. In fact, since Christianity originally was nothing more than a reform sect in Judaism, the only deity they'd worship was the one Jews already worshipped.

There is also no actual Reason to think this scenario happened.

In all actuality, it looks more like your taking two ideas, and then trying to reconcile them by creating a scheme that incorproates both, rather than basing conclusions solely on the evidence. In that way you can retain the Christ Myth Theory, but it's still done more because you don't want to let go of it rather than because it makes any sense.

So this isn't Logic, it's really just you trying to create a scenario to dispell the obvious problems with the Christ Myth, such as the spontaneous development of the Movement and the direct personal details of an Earthly Jesus.

Logic isn't what's wonderful here, but the Human Capacity to try to find explanations to suit them.

It doesn't matter if there were other Would-be Mssiahs. If anything, that only makes the Jesus Story more Historically viable.

And it's to "Supposedly', again, we know he existed.

As for where they got their ideas from, you do know Judaism existed then too, Right? And you also know that people are capable of coming up with their own ideas?

Not that it matters, as a would-be messiah preaching before Jesus doesn't prove that dying and rising saviours were a common motif in the era, or that a Celestial Deity was being claimed for any of them.

And I do know the true Range of the Christ Myth Theory, but what you don't get is that the whole thing is bunk."

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/reasonadvocates/2015/09/15/richard-carriers-mythicism/

Stone
 
Since no one here has addressed the points Skwills makes on that Carrier-discussion page, it's past time to provide them verbatim below ====>>>>>



================>>>>

And here are the points Skwills makes:

"How is this Logic? There is no evidence at all for that Mythical Jesus, and no evidence the early followers worshipped a celestial Deity. In fact, since Christianity originally was nothing more than a reform sect in Judaism, the only deity they'd worship was the one Jews already worshipped.

There is also no actual Reason to think this scenario happened.

In all actuality, it looks more like your taking two ideas, and then trying to reconcile them by creating a scheme that incorproates both, rather than basing conclusions solely on the evidence. In that way you can retain the Christ Myth Theory, but it's still done more because you don't want to let go of it rather than because it makes any sense.

So this isn't Logic, it's really just you trying to create a scenario to dispell the obvious problems with the Christ Myth, such as the spontaneous development of the Movement and the direct personal details of an Earthly Jesus.

Logic isn't what's wonderful here, but the Human Capacity to try to find explanations to suit them.

It doesn't matter if there were other Would-be Mssiahs. If anything, that only makes the Jesus Story more Historically viable.

And it's to "Supposedly', again, we know he existed.

As for where they got their ideas from, you do know Judaism existed then too, Right? And you also know that people are capable of coming up with their own ideas?

Not that it matters, as a would-be messiah preaching before Jesus doesn't prove that dying and rising saviours were a common motif in the era, or that a Celestial Deity was being claimed for any of them.

And I do know the true Range of the Christ Myth Theory, but what you don't get is that the whole thing is bunk."

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/reasonadvocates/2015/09/15/richard-carriers-mythicism/

Stone

Skwills' comment is refuted by the fact that there are definitions of the Christ Myth Theory that are not "bunk".

Watch how Skwills dodges this:

"You mean even the Christ myth theory "which regard Jesus as an historical but insignificant figure"?"

One only need to read skepticalwiki's article on Jesus Myth to see that Skwills had no idea on the true range of the Christ Myth theory.

Heck, Ehrman added to the definition when he said that a Jesus who existed but "had virtually nothing to do with the founding of Christianity" was part of the Christ Myth.

Note how Skwills avoids the 'Christ Myth theories are part of the "theories that regard Jesus as an historical but insignificant figure."' definition like the plague even though it comes from a Cambridge University Press
 
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