The Historical Jesus III

[dejudge]

Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius CONFIRM that JEWS expected the PROPHESIED JEWISH Messianic RULER around c 70 CE using Hebrew Scripture.

Claiming something does no make it true. I have presented how Josephus shows would be Jewish Messianic want a bes goes all the way back to 4 BCE if not earlier.

You showed no such thing. The writings of Josephus do NOT claim at all that there were Jewish Messianic want-a-be in the time of Tiberius.

Josephus wrote about MAGICIANS, PROPHETS and people who falsely claimed to be Kings of the Jews who were either Killed or escaped death.

Athronges was KILLED after falsely claiming to be a King of the Jews.

Theudas the magician got his head cut off after claiming he could divide the river Jordan by magic.

The Egyptian prophet escaped death after claiming he could enter the Jewish Temple .

You seem not to know the difference between magicians, false prophets and the EXPECTED prophesied JEWISH Messianic ruler of the habitable earth.

Josephus SPECIFICALLY stated that the JEWS expected the prophesied JEWISH Messianic ruler c 70 CE during the War of the Jews against the Romans.

You seem to forget that Josephus himself FOUGHT AGAINST the Romans with EXPECTATION that the prophesied Jewish Messianic ruler would be KNOWN WHEN the JEWS would have DEFEATED the Romans.

You seem not to understand that if the JEWS had defeated the Romans c 70 CE that a JEW would have probably been declared the Prophesied Jewish Messianic ruler.

Tacitus' Hiostories 5

...... in most there was a firm persuasion, that in the ancient records of their priests was contained a prediction of how at this very time the East was to grow powerful, and rulers, coming from Judaea, were to acquire universal empire.

These mysterious prophecies had pointed to Vespasian and Titus, but the common people, with the usual blindness of ambition, had interpreted these mighty destinies of themselves, and could not be brought even by disasters to believe the truth.

It was ONLY AFTER the Fall of the Jewish Temple and the desolation of Jerusalem it was realised that the JEWS were mistaken in their prediction.

 

[maximara]

You showed no such thing. The writings of Josephus do NOT claim at all that there were Jewish Messianic want-a-be in the time of Tiberius.

Josephus wrote about MAGICIANS, PROPHETS and people who falsely claimed to be Kings of the Jews who were either Killed or escaped death.

Since Josephus is promoting Vespasian as the "true" messiah in the earlier of his two works this downgrading of these Jewish Messianic want-a-bes makes sense.

The reality is we have the Samaritan prophet, a Jewish Messianic want-a-be, in the reign of Tiberius, who was the main reason Pontius Pilate was called to Rome. So claiming there weren't so much as a Jewish Messianic want-a-be in the time of Tiberius is totally delusional.

'I know that the Messiah is coming. When he will come, he will show us all things.' (John 4.25)

and this is exactly what the Samaritan prophet promised: "on their arrival he would show them the sacred vessels which were buried there" and Pontius Pilate nipped that little project in the bud.

You also show a total lapse in logic because if there were clear prophesies that the messiah would appear in a time that worked out to c 70 CE then these guys couldn't have claimed they where the messiah because they were too early. Since they were able to make such claims and get a reasonable following it logical follows that the prophesies were so vague that nearly anyone could manipulate them into showing they where "the" messiah.

 

[maximara]

You showed no such thing. The writings of Josephus do NOT claim at all that there were Jewish Messianic want-a-be in the time of Tiberius.

Josephus wrote about MAGICIANS, PROPHETS and people who falsely claimed to be Kings of the Jews who were either Killed or escaped death.

Since Josephus is promoting Vespasian as the "true" messiah in the earlier of his two works this downgrading of these Jewish Messianic want-a-bes makes sense.

The reality is we have the Samaritan prophet, a Jewish Messianic want-a-be, in the reign of Tiberius, who was the main reason Pontius Pilate was called to Rome. So claiming there weren't so much as a Jewish Messianic want-a-be in the time of Tiberius is totally delusional.

I know that the Messiah is coming. When he will come, he will show us all things.' (John 4.25) and this is exactly what the Samaritan prophet promised: "on their arrival he would show them the sacred vessels which were buried there" and Pontius Pilate nipped that little project in the bud.

You also show a total lapse in logic because if there were clear prophesies that the messiah would appear in a time that worked out to c 70 CE then these guys couldn't have claimed they where the messiah because they were too early. Ergo there couldn't have been any prophesies clearly pointing to a later date or these guys wouldn't have had followers in the numbers they had.

 

[Mcreal]

It is based on the context:

But the nation of the Samaritans did not escape without tumults. The man who excited them to it was one who thought lying a thing of little consequence, and who contrived every thing so that the multitude might be pleased; so he bid them to get together upon Mount Gerizzim, which is by them looked upon as the most holy of all mountains, and assured them, that when they were come thither, he would show them those sacred vessels which were laid under that place, because Moses put them there (12) So they came thither armed, and thought the discourse of the man probable; and as they abode at a certain village, which was called Tirathaba, they got the rest together to them, and desired to go up the mountain in a great multitude together; but Pilate prevented their going up, by seizing upon file roads with a great band of horsemen and foot-men, who fell upon those that were gotten together in the village; and when it came to an action, some of them they slew, and others of them they put to flight, and took a great many alive, the principal of which, and also the most potent of those that fled away, Pilate ordered to be slain.

But when this tumult was appeased, the Samaritan senate sent an embassy to Vitellius, a man that had been consul, and who was now president of Syria, and accused Pilate of the murder of those that were killed; for that they did not go to Tirathaba in order to revolt from the Romans, but to escape the violence of Pilate. So Vitellius sent Marcellus, a friend of his, to take care of the affairs of Judea, and ordered Pilate to go to Rome, to answer before the emperor to the accusations of the Jews. So Pilate, when he had tarried ten years in Judea, made haste to Rome, and this in obedience to the orders of Vitellius, which he durst not contradict; but before he could get to Rome Tiberius was dead - Antiquities 18:4:1-2

Sure, but it still shows poor recording of time-frames by Josephus.

Makes one wonder how much else they got wrong.

 

[Craig B]

You showed no such thing. The writings of Josephus do NOT claim at all that there were Jewish Messianic want-a-be in the time of Tiberius.

Josephus wrote about MAGICIANS, PROPHETS and people who falsely claimed to be Kings of the Jews who were either Killed or escaped death ...

You write as if the 70 CE messiahs were "real" ones, but as if the earlier ones were going around stating, I am a false prophet. Obviously the people who followed these earlier rebels believed that they were the messiah too. So some people in the days of Theudas or Judas of Galilee were obviously expecting messianic events then too. Later commentators realised in retrospect that they had not been authentic because they all failed.

This is noted and recounted in Acts, in words put into the mouth of the Pharisee leader Gamaliel.

5:34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; 35 and said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. 36 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. 37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. 38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 but if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

 

[dejudge]

Since Josephus is promoting Vespasian as the "true" messiah in the earlier of his two works this downgrading of these Jewish Messianic want-a-bes makes sense.

Josephus promoted Vespasian as the Prophesied Messianic Ruler AFTER HE [Josephus] was CAPTURED, the Jews defeated, and Temple had fallen.

When Josephus was actually FIGHTING AGAINST and KILLING the Romans he did NOT Prophesy that Vespasian was the prophesied Messianic Ruler.

Again, it was AFTER the Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE that the "TAP DANCING" began.

All of a sudden, Josephus a captured Jewish Fighter becomes a Prophet to SAVE his OWN life.

 

[dejudge]

You write as if the 70 CE messiahs were "real" ones, but as if the earlier ones were going around stating, I am a false prophet.

You write as if Josephus claimed that they were false Messianic rulers.

Josephus never made such a claim.

Josephus claimed Theudas was a MAGICIAN and a prophet, that The Egyptian attempted to enter the Jewish Temple and that Athronges falsely claimed he was king of the Jews.


It is hopelessly illogical that the Magicians and prophets were claiming to be Messianic rulers of the habitable earth.

Magicians typically do magic tricks and prophets claim they know what will happen in the future.

You use your imagination as an historical source.

Please, I have no time to waste with your imaginative inventions.

 

[Craig B]

You write as if Josephus claimed that they were false Messianic rulers.

No I don't. I write as if these people claimed they were messiahs; and I write as if exactly that statement about them is found in Chapter 5 of Acts. And I even quote my source.

 

[dejudge]

No I don't. I write as if these people claimed they were messiahs; and I write as if exactly that statement about them is found in Chapter 5 of Acts. And I even quote my source.

You use the writings of the Holy mother Church as history.

You write as if Acts of the Apostles is not fiction/myth fables about a character who resurrected and ascended to heaven who sent the Holy Ghost to give the disciples the power to preach the Christian religion.

Acts of the Apostles is not history and tells us nothing of the history of the start of the Jesus cult of Christians .

Acts 1

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld , he was taken up ; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Acts 2

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come , they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting .

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance .

It is most fascinating that you would openly admit that your source is Acts of the Apostles--a most bizarre ghost story.

 

[maximara]

Sure, but it still shows poor recording of time-frames by Josephus.

To be fair to Josephus we must remember there were no years as we understand them but rather when the Emperor reigned and what Olympia it was. It would be like saying the World Trade Center was destroyed in the first year of Bush the Younger.

Makes one wonder how much else they got wrong.

I don't see what is "wrong" in the quotes I gave:

Pilate goes after some religious fanatics and winds up killing some of them. Representatives of the land those people belonged to claim that these people were escaping Pilate. Pilate is called to Rome to explain to Tiberius just what he was doing but the trip took so long that by the time Pilate got there Tiberius was dead.

Given the limitations of the time seems a reasonably straight foreword sequence of events (better then some places where Josephus does jumps around a bit).

 

[maximara]

You write as if the 70 CE messiahs were "real" ones, but as if the earlier ones were going around stating, I am a false prophet. Obviously the people who followed these earlier rebels believed that they were the messiah too. So some people in the days of Theudas or Judas of Galilee were obviously expecting messianic events then too. Later commentators realised in retrospect that they had not been authentic because they all failed.

This is noted and recounted in Acts, in words put into the mouth of the Pharisee leader Gamaliel.

Exactly my point. If there was a clear prophesy that gave a time frame that worked out to c 70 CE then these guys should NOT have been able to drum up the follower base they did. Ergo the prophesies were so vague that nearly anybody could provide "evidence" that they were the messiah.

I must say dejudge's position is getting more and more bizarre and he still has not explain all these pre 70 CE messiahs.

 

[Mcreal]

It is based on the context:

But the nation of the Samaritans did not escape without tumults. The man who excited them to it was one who thought lying a thing of little consequence, and who contrived every thing so that the multitude might be pleased; so he bid them to get together upon Mount Gerizzim, which is by them looked upon as the most holy of all mountains, and assured them, that when they were come thither, he would show them those sacred vessels which were laid under that place, because Moses put them there (12) So they came thither armed, and thought the discourse of the man probable; and as they abode at a certain village, which was called Tirathaba, they got the rest together to them, and desired to go up the mountain in a great multitude together; but Pilate prevented their going up, by seizing upon file roads with a great band of horsemen and foot-men, who fell upon those that were gotten together in the village; and when it came to an action, some of them they slew, and others of them they put to flight, and took a great many alive, the principal of which, and also the most potent of those that fled away, Pilate ordered to be slain.

But when this tumult was appeased, the Samaritan senate sent an embassy to Vitellius, a man that had been consul, and who was now president of Syria, and accused Pilate of the murder of those that were killed; for that they did not go to Tirathaba in order to revolt from the Romans, but to escape the violence of Pilate. So Vitellius sent Marcellus, a friend of his, to take care of the affairs of Judea, and ordered Pilate to go to Rome, to answer before the emperor to the accusations of the Jews. So Pilate, when he had tarried ten years in Judea, made haste to Rome, and this in obedience to the orders of Vitellius, which he durst not contradict; but before he could get to Rome Tiberius was dead - Antiquities 18:4:1-2

... though "savior gods" (ie. one that fights and overcomes death in some manner) is a more accurate comparison
[cf. dying & rising gods]

About every religion has had this; even the ancient Egyptians had deities in the image of humans: Osiris, Isis, Serapis, Shu (god of Dry Air and father of the Sky), Nut (Creator goddess), Nephthys (Funeral goddess), Seshat (Goddess Literature), and so on.

The Greek and Roman pantheons had deities in the image of humans.

To be fair to Josephus we must remember there were no years as we understand them but rather when the Emperor reigned and what Olympia it was. It would be like saying the World Trade Center was destroyed in the first year of Bush the Younger.

Pilate goes after some religious fanatics and winds up killing some of them. Representatives of the land those people belonged to claim that these people were escaping Pilate. Pilate is called to Rome to explain to Tiberius just what he was doing, but the trip took so long that, by the time Pilate got there, Tiberius was dead.

Given the limitations of the time, [it] seems a reasonably straight foreword sequence of events (better then some places where Josephus does jumps around a bit).

OK, Cheers!

 

[dejudge]

Exactly my point. If there was a clear prophesy that gave a time frame that worked out to c 70 CE then these guys should NOT have been able to drum up the follower base they did. Ergo the prophesies were so vague that nearly anybody could provide "evidence" that they were the messiah.

Your statement is void of logic. One has to be an actual Jewish RULER to be considered the Prophesied JEWISH Messianic ruler by the JEWS and has to be physically ANOINTED .

I must say dejudge's position is getting more and more bizarre and he still has not explain all these pre 70 CE messiahs.

Again, you write more strawman fallacies.

You are the one who claimed that there were pre 70 CE messiahs but have never presented the evidence.

Where is it stated that Theudas the Magician was a pre 70 CE messiah?

Nowhere in writings of Josephus.

Theudas claimed to be a MAGICIAN--NOT the messianic ruler.


Where is it stated that The Egyptian PROPHET was a pre-70 CE messiah?

No where in the writings of Josephus.

Where is it stated that Athronges was a pre 70 CE Messiah.

Nowhere in the writings of Josephus.

Maximara you cannot present any evidence for your imaginative invented pre 70 CE messiahs.

 

[dejudge]

To be fair to Josephus we must remember there were no years as we understand them but rather when the Emperor reigned and what Olympia it was. It would be like saying the World Trade Center was destroyed in the first year of Bush the Younger.

Again, you have exposed a severe lack of knowledge.

The Jewish Calender was not based on the Olympiad.

Anyone familiar with Hebrew Scripture should have known that a Jewish calender year normally consists of 12 lunar months.

Josephus as a Jew would be familiar with years based on 12 lunar months of about 29 days.

 

[Craig B]

You use the writings of the Holy mother Church as history.

You write as if Acts of the Apostles is not fiction/myth fables about a character who resurrected and ascended to heaven who sent the Holy Ghost to give the disciples the power to preach the Christian religion ...

It is most fascinating that you would openly admit that your source is Acts of the Apostles--a most bizarre ghost story.

You simply have no idea about textual analysis, do you? Dejudge, I don't know if Gamaliel ever said any such thing as he is made to say in Acts 5. Moreover, he can't possibly have said that Judas of Galilee came after Theudas because in fact he was active forty years before Theudas. So I'm not saying that this statement was really made at least in that form. What I'm saying is that these people named in the statement were regarded as messiahs, and the fact that they are described in messianic terms in Acts proves that they were so regarded, whether the statement in Acts is genuine in any form or not.

 

[dejudge]

You use the writings of the Holy mother Church as history.

You write as if Acts of the Apostles is not fiction/myth fables about a character who resurrected and ascended to heaven who sent the Holy Ghost to give the disciples the power to preach the Christian religion ...

It is most fascinating that you would openly admit that your source is Acts of the Apostles--a most bizarre ghost story.

You simply have no idea about textual analysis, do you? Dejudge, I don't know if Gamaliel ever said any such thing as he is made to say in Acts 5. Moreover, he can't possibly have said that Judas of Galilee came after Theudas because in fact he was active forty years before Theudas. So I'm not saying that this statement was really made at least in that form. What I'm saying is that these people named in the statement were regarded as messiahs, and the fact that they are described in messianic terms in Acts proves that they were so regarded, whether the statement in Acts is genuine in any form or not.

You don't know what you are talking about.

You don't know that Acts of the Apostles is not historically credible.

In addition, your statement is hopelessly fallacious.

The passage you quoted in the ghost story called Acts does not describe any one in "messianic" terms.

In addition, the writings of Josephus contradict Acts 5.

Textual analysis of Acts of the Apostles confirms that it is a source of fiction.

It is most fascinating that you are openly using a known established source of fiction and ghost stories from the Holy Mother Church as an historical source.

 

[Craig B]

You don't know what you are talking about.

You don't know that Acts of the Apostles is not historically credible.

In addition, your statement is hopelessly fallacious.

The passage you quoted in the ghost story called Acts does not describe any one in "messianic" terms.

In addition, the writings of Josephus contradict Acts 5.

Textual analysis of Acts of the Apostles confirms that it is a source of fiction.

It is most fascinating that you are openly using a known established source of fiction and ghost stories from the Holy Mother Church as an historical source.

I see you've wisely decided to abandon all reasoned argument in your response to me, and to employ pure verbiage and repetitive content-free rebuttal.

Here is the messianic bit. After mentioning Judas and Theudas, Gamaliel is made to say to the Sanhedrin about Peter and the other disciples

38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 but if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

That means: those earlier people might have been "of God"; we know they weren't because they failed, but this new lot haven't been tested yet, and for all Gamaliel knew, they might be "of God".

That means, dejudge, that the followers of Judas and Theudas must have been thought of as "of God" up to the time they were defeated. That's what the story put into the mouth of Gamaliel means. It's a messianic designation.

 

[dejudge]

I see you've wisely decided to abandon all reasoned argument in your response to me, and to employ pure verbiage and repetitive content-free rebuttal.

Here is the messianic bit. After mentioning Judas and Theudas, Gamaliel is made to say to the Sanhedrin about Peter and the other disciples That means: those earlier people might have been "of God"; we know they weren't because they failed, but this new lot haven't been tested yet, and for all Gamaliel knew, they might be "of God".

You have now completely contradicted yourself. You have been trapped in your own fallacies.


The supposed disciples in Acts 5 were NOT regarded as messiahs and that is precisely why they were brought before the Sanhedrin.


The supposed disciples in Acts 5 were regarded as blasphemous criminals who should be immediately imprisoned or killed.

Please, read the WHOLE chapter 5 of the ghost story called Acts and stop taking verses out of context.

You obviously don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Craig B]

You have now completely contradicted yourself. You have been trapped in your own fallacies.


The supposed disciples in Acts 5 were NOT regarded as messiahs and that is precisely why they were brought before the Sanhedrin.


The supposed disciples in Acts 5 were regarded as blasphemous criminals who should be immediately imprisoned or killed.

Please, read the WHOLE chapter 5 of the ghost story called Acts and stop taking verses out of context.

You obviously don't know what you are talking about.

It's you who haven't read the story. After Gamaliel defended them (so goes the story) were they convicted of blasphemy and imprisoned or killed? No they were beaten and released. Why were they treated with such leniency? Because (so goes the story) Gamaliel had reminded the Sanhedrin that such people might be "of God".

 

[maximara]

I see you've wisely decided to abandon all reasoned argument in your response to me, and to employ pure verbiage and repetitive content-free rebuttal.

It's not just you. Dejudge's statements of late seem largely devoid of reasoned arguments regardless of who is replying to.

Here is the messianic bit. After mentioning Judas and Theudas, Gamaliel is made to say to the Sanhedrin about Peter and the other disciples That means: those earlier people might have been "of God"; we know they weren't because they failed, but this new lot haven't been tested yet, and for all Gamaliel knew, they might be "of God".

That means, dejudge, that the followers of Judas and Theudas must have been thought of as "of God" up to the time they were defeated. That's what the story put into the mouth of Gamaliel means. It's a messianic designation.

Well Carrier suggests in some circles 'some Jews expected one of their messiahs heralding the end-times would be killed before the final victory.' (Element 5 pp. 73-81) pointing to Daniel 9.2; 9.24-27 cf. 12.1-13 and several other works to back this claim up.

This brings up several of the points Carrier gives us that blows holes in dejudge position:

Element 2. When Christianity began Judaism was highly sectarian and diverse. (p. 66)

Element 3. (a) When Christianity began, many Jews had long been expecting a messiah: a divinely chosen leader or saviour anointed . . . to help usher in God’s supernatural kingdom, usually (but not always) by subjugating or destroying the enemies of the Jews and establishing an eternal paradise.

(b) If these enemies were spiritual powers the messianic victory would have been spiritual; or both, as in the Enochic literature.

(c) Jewish messianic expectations were widespread, influential and very diverse. (pp. 66-7)

Element 4. (a) Palestine in the early first century CE was experiencing a rash of messianism. There was an evident clamoring of sects and individuals to announce they had found the messiah.

Element 5. Even before Christianity arose some Jews expected one of their messiahs heralding the end-times would be killed before the final victory. (pp. 73-81)

Element 8. (a) Many messianic Jewish sects were searching the (Hebrew and Greek) scriptures for secret messages.

Element 9. The early first century concept of scriptures embraced not only writings that became canonized but many more works, many of which no longer exist; further, of those that do still exist, including canonical texts, the early first century versions were sometimes quite different in details. Texts in places were been modified, changed, before their canonical versions were finally settled. (p. 88-92)


So we have a fairly diverse religion with each sect using various "scriptures" some of which we don't have or that differ from the versions we do have to determine when the messiah would supposedly come with his death signaling the beginning of the End Time which would culminate in a Jewish victory.

So you have what amounted to a build in initial failure mechanic for these cults: 'ok the first time was a disaster with our messiah getting a serious case of dead but the final battle is going to be a winner'