Hilarious. Not a rhetorical question. So they really asked, "are not his sisters here with us?" They didn't know that already, dejudge, that his sisters lived there? And if they didn't know, why didn't they go and find out?
The Historical Jesus III
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It's not merely so-called "midrash" (rather unusual uncommon language again), meaning just a "commentary" on earlier Hebrew scripture (e.g., the OT). The gospels are not mere "commentary". As Randel Helms has shown ("Gospel Fictions") and as I have pointed out here dozens of times - the gospel writers were certainly taking their Jesus stories from various parts of the OT and/or other early writing regarded as "scripture".
They we doing exactly as Paul's letters say that he ("Paul") did, and scouring the OT/scripture for any messiah prophecies that they could adapt and recast as a story of Jesus. That's a fact, as Helms has shown.
The gospels say he was both at the same time! They say he was simultaneously both the son of God and also born of a woman whose husband was called "Joseph".
You cannot just cherry pick the bits that say his parents were Mary and somehow also "Joseph", without also taking with that the "fact" that the same gospels simultaneously say that his father was also Yahweh.
E.g. - in the sentences where the gospels say his parents were Mary & Joseph, they do not say that he was therefore NOT the son of God! ... on the contrary they go on to say that he certainly was the son of God, but born on earth by a woman (the OT and other religious writing of that time, apparently said exactly that of almost all famous and powerful figures in ancient history, i.e. the father was said to be God and they were said to have been "born of a woman").
IOW - it's not true to say that any gospels simply say his parents were Mary and Joseph. That is untrue. What they actually say is that his mother was Mary and that he had two fathers who were God and Joseph (although afaik, in the gospels it is not clear if Joseph was ever supposed to be the biological father ... he was just the much older husband of a "young woman" named "Mary").
Is this a joke? I say
So you ask which parts are true: the parts that state he was a virgin born son of the Holy Ghost or the parts that don't state he was a virgin born son of the Holy Ghost?
The question is - why do you think the gospels are a reliable source of historical fact when they say that Jesus was simultaneously both the son of god and was born to Mary?
On what basis do you claim a source like that, a source which also claims Jesus was multiply miraculous and supernatural on every page, is a trustworthy source of fact? ...
... a source where the writer had certainly (a)never known anyone called Jesus, (b)never known anyone called "Mary", and (c)was certainly using the OT as his source of Jesus stories.
tsig
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you have been claiming that part of the gospels are true and that proves the HJ, I have been trying to find out what part you consider true but you seem reluctant to give us that knowledge.
Your statement is a fallacious assumption, a mis-representation and void of logic.
It could not be a rhetorical question when it is claimed that Jesus was NOT EVER described as a carpenter in the Gospels of the Churches by apologetic writings.
Origen's "Against Celsus 6
It is a fact that gMark does NOT describe Jesus as a carpenter.
The existing NT Canon does corroborate the claim by Origen that NONE of the Gospels describe Jesus as a carpenter.
There is NO question that Jesus is DESCRIBED as a TRANSFIGURING Sea Water walker born of a Holy Ghost in the Gospels .
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As I said before the problem with Jesus as a historical myth where "but a small residuum of truth remains and the narrative is essentially false" putting him on par with King Arthur or Robin Hood.
Supporters of a historical Jesus must accept some part of the Gospel account as history because otherwise they have no where to start.
But in selecting which parts are "historical" they run headlong into confirmation bias problem of effectively turning Jesus into a Tabula Rasa on which they overlay their own views.
For some Jesus meeting Dunker John is a key element for other it is the trial by Grandiose Aviator (cute pun, right?
) and so it goes on. Pick and choose what parts of the story is true which throwing everything else in the green room. When you really look at it it more comes off as desperation of looking for something, anything that can support the idea Jesus existed as an actual individual.
Ah. You're at it AGAIN. Not the inerrant infallibility of the HOLY Scriptures, but the infallibility of the Apologists of Holy MOTHER Church.
Like the Popes you WOULD forbid access to the Bible, and direct the Faithful to READ the works of the Holy Fathers, Saints and Doctors of the CHURCH. The Angelic Doctor, the SERAPHIC Doctor and the Cherubic DOCTOR.
OK, but in that case the key difference is that in the highlighted sentence you say there is actually credible evidence that Apollonius was a real person. Whereas for Jesus (a)there is no such evidence, and (b)we now know (courtesy of Helms, for example) that those who wrote about Jesus (writing anonymously centuries after his supposed lifetime) were taking their Jesus stories from what had been written mostly many centuries BC in the OT and/or other scriptures of the time.
However I am interested in the claimed miracles attributed to Apollonius. Can you either list all the actual described miracles of Apollonius, or give a reference to where those miracles are described? Because I'd be surprised if that list is anything like the list claimed for Jesus, where, according to the gospels, Jesus only seemed to have been preaching for about a year or so, in which time he did virtually nothing else except perform one miracle after another (and in "miracles" I include all the superhuman prophetic and divinely insightful sayings, "wonders & signs") - Jesus was in that described sense, constantly miraculous and really nothing else.
None of which is to say that I doubt that in biblical times there were scores of people wandering the streets claiming to perform miracles and claiming to be the messiah or a "god" of some type. That seems to be clear in certain non-biblical historical writing from the time where various people like that are described (I can probably find refs and quotes if necessary).
So I don't doubt that it was said that all sorts of people performed like Apollonius or Jesus as supposedly miraculous street preachers. On which basis, of course it's possible that Jesus did exist. But the question then is - what is the actual evidence of his existence vs. what is the evidence to show that the writing about him was actually fictional?
And the answer to that is - there is actually no genuine evidence of Jesus' existence at all; but there is a huge mountain of evidence to show that biblical writing about Jesus was fictional creation adapted from messiah predictions in the OT.
What bizarre nonsense you post. You are the one who is using the Christian Bible as a credible historical source.
You actively use a QUESTION in gMark 6 which states Jesus WALKED on the sea to PROVE Jesus was human in the very same gMark .
You use an UNANSWERED QUESTION in gMark 6 as a description.
You appear to be extremely desperate because you are doing exactly what you accuse me of.
You ACTIVELY use the infallible writings from the APOLOGISTS of the Holy Mother Church to argue Jesus was a carpenter.
Craig B said:
Your claim is hopelessly fallacious--established fiction.. I have not forbidden access to the Bible.
I argue that the Christian Bible Jesus story is a PACK of Lies from conception to ascension.
I have already EXPOSED the Christian Bible is a compilation of fiction, falsehood, fabrications, inventions, historical problems, discrepancies, contradictions and events which did not and could not have happened.
You actively use the Christian Bible [the Pack of Lies] of the very same Popes to argue like the Popes that Jesus did exist.
Presently you are arguing that the character who was DESCRIBED as a Sea Water Walker must have been or most likely was a carpenter because there is a QUESTION.
Your HJ argument without question is the worst I have seen since it is a fact that NONE of the Canonised Gospels of the Church up to today describe Jesus as a carpenter.
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The Jesus story is a gross misrepresentation of Hebrew Scriptures.
The Jesus story is about the Killing of the Son of God by the Jews in the time of Pilate and that he resurrected on the THIRD day.
No such claim or prophecy is found in Hebrew Scripture.
Based on writings attributed to Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius the Jews EXPECTED their Jewish Messianic ruler around c 70 CE--NOT 33 CE.
The Jesus story is about the Killing of the Son of God by the Jews in the time of Pilate and that he resurrected on the THIRD day.
No such claim or prophecy is found in Hebrew Scripture.
Based on writings attributed to Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius the Jews EXPECTED their Jewish Messianic ruler around c 70 CE--NOT 33 CE.
I don't doubt that it is possible that Jesus of Nazareth was a figure of myth/fiction.
My argument is that Jesus is actually described as the product of a Ghost and a Virgin, God Creator and a Transfiguring Sea water walker so it is most probable that Jesus was NOT a figure of history.
I am saying that the fiction stories about Apollonius do NOT ALTER the myth/fiction fables of Jesus and do not enhance the HJ argument.
My position is that Fiction fables are worthless as historical accounts.
Not quite as there were other would be messiahs well before c 70 CE:
Simon of Peraea (d 4 BCE)
Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BCE)
Matthias, son of Margalothus (during time of Herod the Great)- thought by some to be the "Theudas" referenced in Acts 5.
Athronges (c 3 CE)
Judas of Galilee (6 CE)
The Samaritan prophet (36 CE) killed by Pontius Pilate.
Theudas the magician (between 44 and 46 CE)
Egyptian Jew Messiah (between 52 and 58 CE). Supposedly led an army of 30,000 people in an attempt to take Jerusalem by force which the Romans drove back killing 400 and capturing 200.
An anonymous prophet (59 CE)
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The thing is the Jews WERE expecting a Jewish Messianic ruler around 33 CE (see Samaritan prophet above)...and around the time of Herod the Great (we have three of them Josephus recorded)...and in the 40s... and in the 50s... and they got a bumper crop of them in the 60s CE.
Here are Josephus' actual words on the c36 CE Samaritan prophet:
"For a man who made light of mendacity and in all his designs catered to the mob, rallied them, bidding them go in a body with him to Mount Gerizim, which in their belief is the most sacred of mountains. He assured them that on their arrival he would show them the sacred vessels which were buried there, where Moses had deposited them. His hearers, viewing this tale as plausible, appeared in arms. They posted themselves in a certain village named Tirathana, and, as they planned to climb the mountain in a great multitude, they welcomed to their ranks the new arrivals who kept coming. But before they could ascend, Pilate blocked their projected route up the mountain with a detachment of cavalry and heavily armed infantry, who in an encounter with the first comers in the village slew some in a pitched battle and put the others to flight. Many prisoners were taken, of whom Pilate put to death the principal leaders and those who were most influential among the fugitives." - Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 18.85-87
Theudas (c 45 CE) tried to do a Red Sea stunt at river Jordan and yes it didn't turn out well at all: " they slew many of them, and took many of them alive. They also took Theudas alive, cut off his head, and carried it to Jerusalem." - Jewish Antiquities 20.97-98
But they may not be useless in figuring out if a actual person is behind those fables as demonstrated by Robin Hood.
We know from Josephus that there were "cheats and deceivers claiming divine inspiration" that would lead anyone foolish enough to follow them to their doom as far back as the time as Herod the Great.
We also can't exclude the possibilities that some obscure failed would be messiah named Jesus wasn't plugged into the fable. Carrier presents a reasonable argument that Jesus ben Ananias [Ananus] (66-70 CE) may have served as the raw framework for the Passover section of "Mark".
There are time I wonder if Christianity actually came out of Judaism or if it was a Gentile mystery cult that picked up the idea of a Jewish messiah and ran with it without fully understanding just what the concept really meant.
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Not one character you mentioned was even described as the Expected Prophesied Jewish Messianic ruler of the habitable earth FOUND in their Sacred writings.
The Jews EXPECTED their PROPHESIED Jewish Messianic ruler around c 70 CE--NOT c 33 CE based on writings attributed to Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius.
The Prophesied Jewish Messiah was EXPECTED to be RULER of the habitable earth including the ENTIRE Roman Empire.
Writings attributed to Josephus mention Simon of Peraea, Athronges, Theudas, an Egyptian prophet and Judas the Galilean but did not state at all that any of them was the EXPECTED PROPHESIED Jewish Messianic ruler of the habitable earth.
You cannot present any actual passage in any writing of antiquity which states that the Jews expected their Jewish Messianic ruler during the reign of Tiberius.
I presented the writings of antiquity which support my argument.
Wars of the Jews 6.5.4
It is clear that the JEWS expected their Jewish Messianic ruler of the habitable earth around c 70 CE and it is CORROBORATED in writings attributed to Tacitus and Suetonius.
Up to this day the Jews still EXPECT the Advent of there Prophesied Jewish Messianic ruler.
Dialogue wiyh Trypho
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maximara said:
We can't exclude the probability that Jesus was a figure of myth/fiction when he was actually described as the product of a Ghost and a Virgin, God Creator, who walked on the sea and Transfigured.
Only God can walk on the water in Jewish mythology.
Job 9:8 KJV
Matthew 14:25 KJV
The speculation that there might have been ah historical has ZERO negative effect on the evidence from antiquity that Jesus was a myth/fiction character.
Jesus was a myth/fiction water threader.
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This is nonsense. The prophesies were Nostradamus meet Oracle of Delphi when they did exist. Look at all the tap dancing Matthew had to do (when he wasn't simply making up prophesies out of whole cloth) to get things to fit.
In fact, some of the calculations using Daniel 9:23-27 put the would be messiah smack dab in the 30s NOT the 70s as you claim. Certainly explains the Samaritan prophet trying to redo Moses in the 30s.
Then you have the Egyptian trying to storm Jerusalem with an army of 30,000 in the 50s...you don't do that if the supposed messiah is clearly not due for another 20 some years.
Again we have would be messiahs well before c70 CE...all the way back to c4 BCE if not earlier.
dejudge, you are spouting total nonsense and the actual works shows that what you claim isn't even real.
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This is pertinent -
How did Pilate get put into the c36 CE time-frame?
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a cult that had dying and rising gods? a cult that also practices baptism? and had a god in the image of man?
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This is pertinent -
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How did Pilate get put into the c36 CE time-frame?
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a cult that had dying and rising gods? a cult that also practices baptism? and had a god in the image of man?
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It is based on the context:
But the nation of the Samaritans did not escape without tumults. The man who excited them to it was one who thought lying a thing of little consequence, and who contrived every thing so that the multitude might be pleased; so he bid them to get together upon Mount Gerizzim, which is by them looked upon as the most holy of all mountains, and assured them, that when they were come thither, he would show them those sacred vessels which were laid under that place, because Moses put them there (12) So they came thither armed, and thought the discourse of the man probable; and as they abode at a certain village, which was called Tirathaba, they got the rest together to them, and desired to go up the mountain in a great multitude together; but Pilate prevented their going up, by seizing upon file roads with a great band of horsemen and foot-men, who fell upon those that were gotten together in the village; and when it came to an action, some of them they slew, and others of them they put to flight, and took a great many alive, the principal of which, and also the most potent of those that fled away, Pilate ordered to be slain.
But when this tumult was appeased, the Samaritan senate sent an embassy to Vitellius, a man that had been consul, and who was now president of Syria, and accused Pilate of the murder of those that were killed; for that they did not go to Tirathaba in order to revolt from the Romans, but to escape the violence of Pilate. So Vitellius sent Marcellus, a friend of his, to take care of the affairs of Judea, and ordered Pilate to go to Rome, to answer before the emperor to the accusations of the Jews. So Pilate, when he had tarried ten years in Judea, made haste to Rome, and this in obedience to the orders of Vitellius, which he durst not contradict; but before he could get to Rome Tiberius was dead - Antiquities 18:4:1-2
No shortage of those though savior gods (ie one that fights and over comes death in some manner) is a more accurate comparison.
The use of water in a cleansing or purification ritual is common. The Jews had Tvilah centuries before Dunker John was even born.
About every religion has had this; even the ancient Egyptians had deities in the image of humans: Osiris, Isis, Shu (god of Dry Air and father of the Sky), Nut (Creator goddess), Nephthys (Funeral goddess), Seshat (Goddess Literature), and so on.
The Greek and Roman pantheons had deities in the image of humans.
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dejudge said:
You are confirming that your claim is nonsense if the author of gMatthew was a "Tap dancer".
There was no prophecy in Hebrew Scripture for the character called Jesus the Christ in the time of Tiberius.
maximara said:
You forgot that you just said that it was "TAP DANCING" which produced the so-called prophecies. There is NOTHING in the book of Daniel that coincides with the "Advent" of the Fiction character called Jesus the Christ of Nazareth.
It was AFTER c 70 CE, AFTER the supposed prophecy of Daniel did not come to pass that there was a LOT of "TAP DANCING".
Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius CONFIRM that JEWS expected the PROPHESIED JEWISH Messianic RULER around c 70 CE using Hebrew Scripture.
It was AFTER the Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE that it was realized that the JEWS had made a massive error in their prediction using supposed prophecies in Daniel.
The character called Jesus the Christ in the NT is a product of "TAP DANCERS".
maximara said:
An Egyptian would NOT even qualify to be a JEWISH Messianic ruler.
The Egyptian had to "RUN out town" because they wanted to KILL him or perhaps CUT OFF his head like Theudas.
maximara said:
Again, maximara you have utterly FAILED to show that HEBREW SCRIPTURE stated that the Prophesied Jewish Messianic ruler would come in the time of Tiberius.
You are "TAP DANCING" just like the author of gMatthew.
Suetonius Life of Vespasian
We know that the JEWS expected their prophesied JEWISH [Not Egyptian] Messianic Ruler around c 70 CE and that you will NOT be able to find any prophecy in Hebrew Scripture to contradict the evidence corroborated by Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius.
Claiming something does no make it true. I have presented how Josephus shows would be Jewish Messianic want a bes goes all the way back to 4 BCE if not earlier.
Matthew has that whole thing where Jesus' family so that Jesus can came out out of Egypt as supposedly prophesied but Luke doesn't do this and actually has Jesus stay in Judea.
Given Moses had been raised as an Egyptian this may have been the criteria for a would be Messianic ruler. Carrier in fact theorizes the Egyptian may have been a Jew from Alexandria.
In fact in Jewish antiquities Josephus says this:
bout this time, someone came out of Egypt to Jerusalem, claiming to be a prophet. He advised the crowd to go along with him to the Mount of Olives, as it was called, which lay over against the city, and at the distance of a kilometer. He added that he would show them from hence how the walls of Jerusalem would fall down at his command, and he promised them that he would procure them an entrance into the city through those collapsed walls. Now when Felix was informed of these things, he ordered his soldiers to take their weapons, and came against them with a great number of horsemen and footmen from Jerusalem, and attacked the Egyptian and the people that were with him. He slew four hundred of them, and took two hundred alive. The Egyptian himself escaped out of the fight, but did not appear any more. And again the robbers stirred up the people to make war with the Romans, and said they ought not to obey them at all; and when any persons would not comply with them, they set fire to their villages, and plundered them. - Jewish Antiquities 20.169-171
Carrier notes that here you have two aspects of the Jesus story: coming out of Egypt and preaching from the Mount of Olives.
You have not shown that that ALL prophesies of the Jewish Messianic ruler lead to 70 CE nor have you explained all the would be Jewish Messianic rulers that appeared well before that date:
Simon of Peraea (d 4 BCE)
Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BCE)
Matthias, son of Margalothus (during time of Herod the Great) - thought by some to be the "Theudas" referenced in Acts 5.
Athronges (c 3 CE)
Judas of Galilee (6 CE)
The Samaritan prophet (36 CE) killed by Pontius Pilate.
Theudas the magician (between 44 and 46 CE)
Egyptian Jew Messiah (between 52 and 58 CE). Supposedly led an army of 30,000 people in an attempt to take Jerusalem by force which the Romans drove back killing 400 and capturing 200.
An anonymous prophet (59 CE)
As I said you had various "prophesies" that a would be messiah could point to as a way to "prove" they were the foretold one. If you look at the failed messiahs in Josephus you notice something (unless noted a decade starts at year 1 and ends at 0 so 30s is 31-40 CE):
Herod the Great's death (c 4 BCE) and Census (6 CE): 5
30s: 1
40s: 1
50s: 2
60s: 5 with 1 possibly AFTER the fall of the Temple (Menahem ben Judah)
70s: 1 or 2 (Jonathan, the weaver and Menahem ben Judah)
If as you claim there was a "prophesy" that the would be messiah would come c 70 then we should see the number of claimants slowly increase as that date comes closer. That is NOT what we see but rather an inverted bell curve with Herod the Great's death+Census and the fall of the Temple as the two high points.
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