The Historical Jesus III

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Who says these 'apostles' or 'disciples' were early 1st century?!
The timing. Check out when Polycarp, Papias and Irenaeus lived.

"the eye-witnesses of 'the Word of life' " are not necessarily apostles or disciples of Jesus the Christ !!!

ie. they could easily be people telling & selling a pre-Synoptic message in the 2nd century.

"the Lord" and "the word of life" are not necessarily Jesus Christ.
I'd agree, except that we know Polycarp was someone who believed in a "Jesus Christ". We have his Letter to the Philippians So when Irenaeus claims to have met Polycarp, and that Polycarp claims to have met apostles of Jesus, it is hard to believe that "the Lord" and "the word of life" are referring to someone else. But I'd like to hear your case if that is what you are proposing.
 
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You say that you explained it in detail, and that I missed it?

OK, so quote my post where I made any claim to you about any "Great Fire".

Just quote my post where I ever told you anything about any "Great Fire".

Please quote my post saying that.

Four times not enough?

You claimed tacitus was not alive during the times he's wrote about. He wrote about the great fire, you were wrong.

To be kind, you never typed out the words great and fire, and I am actually convinced at this point that you have absolutely no idea whatsoever why you were wrong.
 
No, that's not a contradiction, neither profound nor mundane. Check out Tertullian's "Ad nationes" for example. There is no doubt that Tertullian believed in a historical Jesus, yet he avoids the names "Jesus" AND "Christ", preferring the word "founder" instead which he uses multiple times. What do you think? Is this another example of contradiction?

Your claim is absolute nonsense. Your HJ argument is bankrupt.

Writings attributed to Tertullian specifically explained that his Jesus was NOT born of human seed.

"ON THE FLESH OF CHRIST" attributed to Tertullian.

Now, that we may give a simpler answer, it was not fit that the Son of God should be born of a human father's seed,........In order, therefore, that He who was already the Son of God— of God the Father's seed, that is to say, the Spirit— might also be the Son of man, He only wanted to assume flesh, of the flesh of man without the seed of a man; for the seed of a man was unnecessary for One who had the seed of God.

As, then, before His birth of the virgin, He was able to have God for His Father without a human mother, so likewise, after He was born of the virgin, He was able to have a woman for His mother without a human father.

It is most fascinating that an admitted Christian would openly mis-represent Christian writings of antiquity.

The writings attributed to Tertullian are compatible with the teachings of the Church that Jesus was God of God and born of a Ghost.

The writings attributed to Tertullian are evidence of a Myth/Fiction Jesus.
 
The timing. Check out when Polycarp, Papias and Irenaeus lived.
I'm not referring to them; I'm referring to the fact that references to 'apostles' (or 'disciples' or whatever) in works attributed to them are to unspecified entities ie. they could be any followers of any then theology.


I'd agree, except that we know Polycarp was someone who believed in a "Jesus Christ". We have his Letter to the Philippians So when Irenaeus claims to have met Polycarp, and that Polycarp claims to have met apostles of Jesus, it is hard to believe that "the Lord" and "the word of life" are referring to someone else. But I'd like to hear your case if that is what you are proposing.
There are various problems with these texts

eg. Possible interpolations in Polycarp's letter pp. 68-70 from 'Personalities of the Early Church' (1927, Taylor & Francis) edited by Everett Ferguson
 
The timing. Check out when Polycarp, Papias and Irenaeus lived.

Bad timing.

Polycarp, Papias and Irenaeus had no idea wrote the Gospels and had NO idea that the Pauline Corpus were written by MULTIPLE persons posing as Paul.


I'd agree, except that we know Polycarp was someone who believed in a "Jesus Christ".
'

What bizarre logic!!! In writings attributed to Polycarp he believed the God of the Jews existed.

Belief is NOT historical evidence of existence.

Polyarp
But may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ Himself, who is the Son of God, and our everlasting High Priest, build you up in faith and truth...

Jesus is a myth God in writings attributed to Polycarp.
 
... when Irenaeus claims to have met Polycarp, and that Polycarp claims to have met apostles of Jesus, it is hard to believe that "the Lord" and "the word of life" are referring to someone else. But I'd like to hear your case if that is what you are proposing.

Frederick W Norris in Encyclopedia of Early Christianity, Second Edition says

Irenaeus referred to 1 Clement and the Shepherd of Hermas as 'scripture'.

Clement of Alexandria called Clement [of Rome] and Barnabas 'apostles'.

"Origen mentioned Barnabas as 'scripture and seems to refer to Clement the same way".

"Eusebius knew that Hermes, Barnabas, and the Didache had been accepted as scripture by some"​
 
... There is no doubt that Tertullian believed in a historical Jesus, yet he avoids the names "Jesus" AND "Christ", preferring the word "founder" instead which he uses multiple times. What do you think? Is this another example of contradiction?
All of Tertullian's works need evaluation. Some think his Against Marcion has passed through several hands in several languages and and been redacted.

The conclusion of Ad Nationes is hardly Christian per se -

"In conclusion, without denying all those whom antiquity willed and posterity has believed to be gods, to be the guardians of your religion, there yet remains for our consideration that very large assumption of the Roman superstitions which we have to meet in opposition to you, O heathen, viz. that the Romans have become the lords and masters of the whole world, because by their religious offices they have merited this dominion to such an extent that they are within a very little of excelling even their own gods in power. One cannot wonder that Sterculus, and Mutunus, and Larentina, have severally advanced this empire to its height! The Roman people has been by its gods alone ordained to such dominion. For I could not imagine that any foreign gods would have preferred doing more for a strange nation than for their own people, and so by such conduct become the deserters and neglecters, nay, the betrayers of the native land wherein they were born and bred, and ennobled and buried ...

"Still the unhappy (queen of gods) had no power against the fates! And yet the Romans did not accord as much honour to the fates, although they gave them Carthage, as they did to Larentina. But surely those gods of yours have not the power of conferring empire. For when Jupiter reigned in Crete, and Saturn in Italy, and Isis in Egypt, it was even as men that they reigned, to whom also were assigned many to assist them. Thus he who serves also makes masters, and the bond-slave of Admetus aggrandizes with empire the citizens of Rome, although he destroyed his own liberal votary Croesus by deceiving him with ambiguous oracles. Being a god, why was he afraid boldly to foretell to him the truth that he must lose his kingdom. Surely those who were aggrandized with the power of wielding empire might always have been able to keep an eye, as it were, on their own cities. If they were strong enough to confer empire on the Romans, why did not Minerva defend Athens from Xerxes? Or why did not Apollo rescue Delphi out of the hand of Pyrrhus? They who lost their own cities preserve the city of Rome, since (forsooth) the religiousness of Rome has merited the protection! But is it not rather the fact that this excessive devotion has been devised since the empire has attained its glory by the increase of its power? ... The nation, therefore, which has grown to its powerful height by victory after victory, cannot seem to have developed owing to the merits of its religion--whether they have injured the religion by augmenting their power, or augmented their power by injuring the religion. All nations have possessed empire, each in its proper time, as the Assyrians, the Medes, the Persians, the Egyptians; empire is even now also in the possession of some, and yet they that have lost their power used not to behave without attention to religious services and the worship of the gods, even after these had become unpropitious to them, until at last almost universal dominion has accrued to the Romans. It is the fortune of the times that has thus constantly shaken kingdoms with revolution. Inquire who has ordained these changes in the times ...
 
Never heard of it.

If that is in reference to Hector Avalos' The End of Biblical Studies you must have not been actually reading what is going on here because that work has been referenced several times. I made a comment about it back in 1st July 2014 and four time since then including 27th July 2015 which produced the totally useless comment of "Yuk. Preposterous."


First the thing about Troy now this; are you actually reading what people are presenting or just looking for some piece you can make a snarky comeback to with NO regard for what came before or what information it contains?
 
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....you never typed out the words great and fire, and I am actually convinced at this point that you I have absolutely no idea whatsoever why I made up stuff to make it look like you were wrong.


There you go... I corrected that for you to be more in line with the truth.
 
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Bad timing.

Polycarp, Papias and Irenaeus had no idea wrote the Gospels and had NO idea that the Pauline Corpus were written by MULTIPLE persons posing as Paul.


'

What bizarre logic!!! In writings attributed to Polycarp he believed the God of the Jews existed.

Belief is NOT historical evidence of existence.

Polyarp

Jesus is a myth God in writings attributed to Polycarp.


:D:thumbsup:
 
If that is in reference to Hector Avalos' The End of Biblical Studies you must have not been actually reading what is going on here because that work has been referenced several times. I made a comment about it back in 1st July 2014 and four time since then including 27th July 2015 which produced the totally useless comment of "Yuk. Preposterous."


First the thing about Troy now this; are you actually reading what people are presenting or just looking for some piece you can make a snarky comeback to with NO regard for what came before or what information it contains?

__

...must read books that argue "for" or "against"? What a totally weird idea.
 
Frederick W Norris in Encyclopedia of Early Christianity, Second Edition says

Irenaeus referred to 1 Clement and the Shepherd of Hermas as 'scripture'.

Clement of Alexandria called Clement [of Rome] and Barnabas 'apostles'.

"Origen mentioned Barnabas as 'scripture and seems to refer to Clement the same way".

"Eusebius knew that Hermes, Barnabas, and the Didache had been accepted as scripture by some"​


How would one ever be sure what was fact and what was hallucination and what was lies with those Christians when it was in fact a virtue as far as they were concerned to have visions and talk in tongues and LIE... yes... it is an old and long cherished Christian tadition to lie for Jesus' sake.

Eusebius, Emperor Constantine's bishop, legalized deception for Jesus' sake
  • How it may be lawful and fitting to use falsehood as a medicine, and for the benefit of those who want to be deceived.

Paul dissimulated and huckstered for Jesus's sake
  • 1 Corinthians 9:20-23 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."


And Martin Luther the founder of Protestantism sanctified lying for Jesus' sake
  • What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church ... a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them.
 
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If that is in reference to Hector Avalos' The End of Biblical Studies you must have not been actually reading what is going on here because that work has been referenced several times. I made a comment about it back in 1st July 2014 and four time since then including 27th July 2015 which produced the totally useless comment of "Yuk. Preposterous."


First the thing about Troy now this; are you actually reading what people are presenting or just looking for some piece you can make a snarky comeback to with NO regard for what came before or what information it contains?

They must read books that argue "for" or "against"? What a totally weird idea.

Did you mean to leave something there and forgot or was there a point I am missing?

I have read pro-HJ books and for the most part they are the same old same old. Sure you get the occasional claim that there are NT writings among the DSS (which is interesting but given the date range of them not all that useful) but at the end of the day it boils down to the NT, Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Suetonius, and (on a really bad day) Thallus dance routine with the occupational Celsus, Lucian, Mara bar Serapion, or whatever else is on the table this month to mix it up.

Jesus Legend by Eddy and Boyd is one of the better ones and even it pulls the Thallus card saying that it provided "probable confirmation that an unusual darkness came over the earth when Jesus was crucified" pg 198 SAY WHAT?! They explained back some 60 pages earlier taking nearly three pages to do so all the reasons Thallus is iffy in the extreme and now say it is "probable confirmation"? :boggled: How in the name of the Historical Method does THAT work?

Besides as I have repeatedly stated the ONLY use Thallus is good for is if you want to prove the Gospel Jesus existed and everybody knows that Jesus did NOT exist as that Jesus a miracle making God-man. Besides if such a darkness did occur why did the Christians NOT preserve the work of Philo that covered this time period? Certainly it of all sources would have been given not only an account of such a darkness but of Jesus ministry if it was anywhere as widespread as the Gospels imply.

For a full dose of STUPID there it this:

"Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Cæsar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth - manifestly that one of which we speak. But what has an eclipse in common with an earthquake, the rending rocks, and the resurrection of the dead, and so great a perturbation throughout the universe? . . . And calculation makes out that the period of 70 weeks, as noted in Daniel, is completed at this time." - Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18.1

You can NOT have "a full eclipse of the sun" with a "full moon" never mind solar eclipses only last a few minutes not hours.
 
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I'd agree, except that we know Polycarp was someone who believed in a "Jesus Christ".


This alone should make every word he ever wrote be doubted.

Christians of old (and many still even in the 21st century) exalted hallucinations and visions and voices in their heads over reality and reason, and it was an established practice to FABRICATE FAIRY TALES for the sake of the ill begotten son of their magical sky daddy.

Here is a list of the fairy tales which Christians of old forged as real stuff in their ongoing attempts at huckstering and peddling their son of a ghost demi-god.


How do you know that any of the writings of Jesus cultists were not as imaginary and fraudulent as the above litany of fairy tales?

You yourself admitted already that even the Buybull is nothing but a collection of fairy tales and myths.

Add that to the above plethora of fabrications and forgeries and fairy tales peddled off on the unsuspecting as reality and fact and PAUSE FOR THOUGHT... and try to answer this question
Given the proclivity of those charlatans and hucksters for fabricating stuff and peddling it off on people as fact.... how can one trust ANYTHING they ever said?​

So when Irenaeus claims to have met Polycarp, and that Polycarp claims to have met apostles of Jesus, it is hard to believe that "the Lord" and "the word of life" are referring to someone else. But I'd like to hear your case if that is what you are proposing.


So hearsay of liars upon hearsay of liars about hallucinating talkers in tongues who believed in ghosts and sons of ghosts and sky daddies who come down as ghosts to commit adultery with little married young virgins to make a demi-god who cures blind men with spittle mixed with dirt and who curses fig trees for not bearing fruit out of season and who demeans and torments poor women groveling at his feet while cowardly running on the double to cure the slave of a Roman centurion.

What an amazing faith must one have to disregard all the above damning facts so as to exude a human being out of the above fairy tales and forgeries .... and then turn around to worship him all over again as a god.
:confused::boggled::eye-poppi:eek::yikes:
 
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There is no such thing as "historical truth" as you just called it. Or as other HJ posters here have often said or tried to imply, something called "historical evidence" or a special type or special standard of "truth" or "evidence" that is peculiar to biblical studies.

Evidence for anything, or the "truth" of anything, means the same thing in all subjects. "Fact" (i.e. "truth"), is "fact", whatever subject is under discussion.

What you, and all other HJ posters here seem to be claiming, is that in studies of ancient history, inc. studies about the bible as a source of writing about Jesus, we are forced to accept as "evidence" information which is, as one HJ poster of the past here (i.e. name “JaysonR”) put it himself, of a "truly awful standard" (though he still wanted to use that “truly awful standard” of evidence anyway)
....

After about 100 comments on this subject you continue misunderstanding my point of view! It is amazing! It is upsetting! It is la Caraba!

I am not a believer. I am an atheist.
I don’t think the Bible is a historic document. No more than the Chanson de Roland or the Iliad.
Yes, I think likely that a man/peacher/prophet called Jesus was crucified by Romans about 30 EC. I think that denying this is contradictory.
I am a minimalist. I think that scarcely more can be said about this man. I think that the gospels are legendary stories that reflect the beliefs of the Early Christians about their leader and it is practically impossible to draw out any coherent and reliable historical Jesus from them.
I think you are a danger for a critical rationalism. Sorry, not exactly you, but the radical positivism that you and others defend in this forum.

Evidence for anything, or the "truth" of anything, means the same thing in all subjects.

You are wrong. Well, you can maintain the deductive hypothetic method of the natural sciences in history and provoke the almost universal indignation of historians of the Antiquity. And I am not speaking of exegete historians of the Bible. I am speaking about the historians that study the Ancient Greece, the Hittites or the Inca Empire. None of them rejects a document because it is a copy or because it includes legendary stories.

There are diverse degrees of certainty and diverse methods to obtain it. This is my first point. Yes, there are the zero degree of certainty and almost an absolute certainty (it is very rare in human sciences), but sciences are diverse and different their methods and ends.

You have not answered my question: Do you think that Heraclitus never existed? He is only an example of your "eraser" method.

PS: I have some of the most reputed historians of Antiquity in my book collection: Vidal-Naquet, Loreaux, Finley, Peter Brown, Sainte-Croix, Vernant, Momigliano, Giardina, Veyne, etc. They don’t share “your” method in any way. You should consider why things are so.
 
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If that is in reference to Hector Avalos' The End of Biblical Studies you must have not been actually reading what is going on here because that work has been referenced several times. I made a comment about it back in 1st July 2014 and four time since then including 27th July 2015 which produced the totally useless comment of "Yuk. Preposterous."


First the thing about Troy now this; are you actually reading what people are presenting or just looking for some piece you can make a snarky comeback to with NO regard for what came before or what information it contains?
Maximara. You have apparently suggested that you have "gone there" in a goose for gander suggestion that I am a holocaust denier. But your words are indefinite enough to suggest you have left yourself a "denial option" if I call you to account on that. So, please clarify yourself. Until you do, I will not discuss with you the Trojan War or any other matter. Do you grasp that? You are calling me a holocaust denier "have gone there", or you're not. Let's clear that up, because I'm not ready to ignore in the course of a discussion, innuendo of that kind.

If you do not choose to do so, I will not address you again. I would therefore be grateful if you would not, under cover of my reticence in this regard, make any more references to my personal views on Troy or any other question.
 
...
I don’t think the Bible is a historic document. No more than the Chanson de Roland or the Iliad.
Yes, I think likely that a man/peacher/prophet called Jesus was crucified by Romans about 30 EC. I think that denying this is contradictory.


So you think there was a normal man Achilles and a virago called Athena?

Do you think it is "contradictory" to doubt that Romulus ever existed?

Was Joseph Smith just exaggerating a real event when he told the story about his encounter with the angel Macaroni? Was Macaroni just a real person albeit exaggerated into an angel by the mountebank Smith?

Was Muhammad narrating a real event when he told of his encounters with the angel Whatshamcallit? Was Whatshamacallit a real person albeit exaggerated into an angel by the brigand Muhammad?

Knowing that Muhammad and Smith were the hucksters we know them to have been is it not more logical to just dismiss Macaroni and Whatshamacallit altogether as fabrications by the charlatans instead of trying to rationalize them into men?

Why do you think Jesus is not the same as Macaroni and Whatshamacallit?

We know Paul was no less of charlatan and huckster than Muhammad and Smith... so why trust him any more than those other charlatans and brigands and hucksters and forgers and liars as we have had throughout the annals of human folly?

Why all the special pleading for Jesus' sake?

I am a minimalist. I think that scarcely more can be said about this man. I think that the gospels are legendary stories that reflect the beliefs of the Early Christians about their leader and it is practically impossible to draw out any coherent and reliable historical Jesus from them.


Just pause for a minute and reflect on these questions
Is every fairy tale ever written based upon real people albeit mythicized?
Was Adam real?
Was Abraham real?
Was Moses real?
Was Robin Hood real?
Was John Frum real?
Was Hamlet real?
Was Shylock real?
Was King Lear real?
Was Oliver Twist real?
Was Sherlock Holmes real?​

And here is another question
Which is more sane.... to buy a car from someone who has only a badly made copy of the title deed .... or.... to walk away thinking that it is most likely a fake title deed?​

Why are you willing to buy Jesus despite the fake title deed?

I think you are a danger for a critical rationalism. Sorry, not exactly you, but the radical positivism that you and others defend in this forum.


Not long ago benighted people used to say the same thing about skeptics who doubted the existence of Moses and the reality of the Exodus and not long before that Adam and Abraham.

You are doing exactly the same... and just as benightedly.

Benighted thinkers not long ago used the exact same arguments you are using right now to justify a rationalization of the Buybull claptrap YET AGAIN in precisely the same ILLOGICAL unreasoning that you are doing.

Do you think Adam was real? Do you think Abraham was real?

And if you do then why don't you think Achilles and Romulus were real?

If you do not then why would Jesus be any different from the above?

Why the impassioned and indefatigable special pleading for Jesus' sake?
 
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So you think there was a normal man Achilles and a virago called Athena?

Do you think it is "contradictory" to doubt that Romulus ever existed?

Was Joseph Smith just exaggerating a real event when he told the story about his encounter with the angel Macaroni? Was Macaroni just a real person albeit exaggerated into an angel by the mountebank Smith?

Was Muhammad narrating a real event when he told of his encounters with the angel Whatshamcallit? Was Whatshamacallit a real person albeit exaggerated into an angel by the brigand Muhammad?

Knowing that Muhammad and Smith were the hucksters we know them to have been is it not more logical to just dismiss Macaroni and Whatshamacallit altogether as fabrications of the charlatans instead of trying to rationalize them into men?

Why do you think Jesus is not the same as Macaroni and Whatshamacallit?

We know Paul was no less of charlatan and huckster than Muhammad and Smith... so why trust him any more than those other charlatans and brigands and hucksters and forgers and liars as we have had throughout the annals of human folly?

Why all the special pleading for Jesus' sake?

Was Sherlock Holmes real? <many other examples snipped>

Benighted thinkers not long ago used the exact same arguments you are using right now to justify a rationalization of the Buybull claptrap YET AGAIN in precisely the same ILLOGICAL unreasoning that you are doing.

Do you think Adam was real? Do you think Abraham was real?

And if you do then why don't you think Achilles and Romulus were real?

If you do not then why would Jesus be any different from the above?
Here's why, and in fact the justification can be inferred from your own words, to wit

Was Joseph Smith just exaggerating a real event when he told the story about his encounter with the angel Macaroni? Was Macaroni just a real person albeit exaggerated into an angel by the mountebank Smith?

Was Muhammad narrating a real event when he told of his encounters with the angel Whatshamcallit? Was Whatshamacallit a real person albeit exaggerated into an angel by the brigand Muhammad?

Knowing that Muhammad and Smith were the hucksters we know them to be is it not more logical to just dismiss Macaroni and Whatshamacallit altogether as fabrications of the charlatans?

Why do you think Jesus is not the same as Macaroni and Whatshamacallit?


Consider your own contradictions. What are Moroni and Gabriel claimed to be? Angels. What, do we argue, Smith, Muhammad and Jesus were? Men.

Now, whether hucksters or not, you agree that Smith and Muhammad were historical men, and not Angels or fictional characters like Holmes. Supernatural claims are made for Smith and Muhammad. These you rightly reject, but such claims don't prevent you from accepting the historical reality - in natural, non-magical mode - of the people about whom they were made.

What we, including you, do for these two others - in fact are doing in your last post! - HJ proponents do also in respect of Jesus. There is no "special pleading".

Lists of people from story books or novels can have no part in this discussion. I renew my plea that in examining these things we confine ourself to considering figures who are actually believed, for religious or other reasons, to have existed, so that we may determine, by appropriate research, the probability that these beliefs are or are not justified.

Your attitude is odd. Some mythical people don't exist. Some do. You admit this as well as I do. But when you refer to those who do exist you attempt misdirection by alluding to Angels, who indeed don't exist, or you call the real people brigands or hucksters, as if that made the least difference to their historicity.

By the way, Jesus has been accused of both these misdeeds. He may be identified confidently as being the same person as Jesus Barabbas, who was awaiting trial for "insurrection" according to the Gospel account; and there was another rebel Jesus ben Saphat, in c 68 CE. Moreover, Jesus has been accused of fraudulent miracle working often enough.

Let's suppose these accusations are true. So what? Brigands and frauds are as historically real as virtuous people; and they are infinitely more real than Angels.
 
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Let's suppose these accusations are true. So what? Brigands and frauds are as historically real as virtuous people; and they are infinitely more real than Angels.

You forgot fundamental accusations.

You forget that Jesus is claimed to be the Logos God Creator, the Son of God and born of a Ghost in the Christian Bible.

If you suppose those accusations are true then Jesus is infinitely a Myth.

1. Mark 5:7 ----And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

2.Mark 15:39--- And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
 
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