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The Hiding in Caves meme

Which of the following describes most closely your current believes?

  • I accept the official 9/11 story, and believe that some of the involved Al Qaeda members planned thi

    Votes: 8 13.6%

  • I accept the official 9/11 story, and do NOT believe that some of the involved Al Qaeda members plan

    Votes: 50 84.7%

  • I doubt the official 9/11 story, and believe that the official story accuses members of Al Qaeda who

    Votes: 1 1.7%

  • I doubt the official 9/11 story, and do NOT believe that the official story accuses members of Al Qa

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    59
  • Poll closed .
bill smith said:
Any interesting statements he made on 9/11 Oystein ?
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No. Wrote a book back in 2003. Everything has been debunked since the same year.

Why should that be interesting? Are you trying to imply he is an authority on any subtopic of 9/11? Remember, he had been out of the loop for 7 years on 9/11. Remote-controlled planes - pretty dumb.
 
Sam.I.Am said:
I think that most JREFer's don't really care about whether or not they were hiding in caves. I personally think that doing so was a wise strategic retreat (from an armchair general type point of view), I also don't think that it would've prevented them from doing what they did even if they did 100% of the planning from there (which I highly doubt was the case).

It's well known that Bin Laden specifically and Al Queda in general liked to use modern technology to their advantage. Satellite TV and cell phones meant that they could be connected to anywhere in the world in minutes if they needed to be. CDroms, laptops and thumb drives ensured that he could get his orders out via messenger (probably the most secure method available) provided that they weren't time sensitive.

All of that aside there's no evidence that the details of the plan were put together in caves, if anything the evidence points towards the bulk of the ground work being done in Germany and a few locations in the USA. At most it appears that Bin Laden approved the overall idea of hijacking and crashing planes into specific targets and provided or facilitated funding and other logistical assistance for that plan and left the details for his trusted lieutenants to work out. Once that was done he probably gave the final approval and set the date. None of this required a fancy location or a complicated system of communications.

All of this ties into why I think that when truthers drag out the whole living in caves bit is racist. They are trying to imply that they were too dumb to even get out of living in caves so by extension they were too dumb to have figured out how to do what they did when they say "A bunch of Arabs living in caves". Being an Arab or any other race for that matter has no bearing on what they were capable of. If they had simply said a bunch of Men living in caves then there would be no racism implied (they would still be wrong in their assessment of what determined people can do with limited resources however).
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Minor point, but weren't laptops still pretty rare/expensive in 2000-2001? And were thumb drives even available then?

Pedantic I know. :o
 
bill smith said:
No, the conversation evolved here. But I am satisfied and we can go back to the caves if you like.
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Maybe you could start with who besides a "truther" has ever said this:

'Do you really think that a Bunch of ragged Arabs living in a cave could have orchestrated 9/11'
 
Mr. Skinny said:
Minor point, but weren't laptops still pretty rare/expensive in 2000-2001? And were thumb drives even available then?

Pedantic I know. :o
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And could the Americans scan and intercept all calls in the lonely lonely mountains of Afghanistan.
 
Mr. Skinny said:
Minor point, but weren't laptops still pretty rare/expensive in 2000-2001? And were thumb drives even available then?

Pedantic I know. :o
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No, notebooks became rather common since at least 1998. On 9/11/2001, I was project group leader responsible for the rollout of about 14,000 personal computers. I don't recall exact numbers, but close to 1,000 of these were notebooks. Windows 2000 at the time.

Thumb drives (USB sticks?) however became staple only some years later.
 
Oystein said:
No, notebooks became rather common since at least 1998. On 9/11/2001, I was project group leader responsible for the rollout of about 14,000 personal computers. I don't recall exact numbers, but close to 1,000 of these were notebooks. Windows 2000 at the time.

Thumb drives (USB sticks?) however became staple only some years later.
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I was provided with a (chunky) 16MB Hewlett Packard USB stick for work shortly after Compaq was merged with HP. That was in 2001. I worked for a Compaq partner then.

But the point stands I guess. At that time they were new fangled gadgets, not staples, given the issues with device drivers and all (even in Win2k).

Back to the meme thing, 9/11 Truth is full of them. They seem to begin life in someone's blog/rant as rhetorical devices and then spread memetically through the echo chambers.

For example. How often have you read this nonsense? Either you accept the explosive evidence presented by the Truth movement's shining stars or you believe everything the government says at all times on all topics and "and as we all know, they would never tell a lie". The frequency I have been presented with this argument, by different people, at different times, in more or less the exact wording that I quoted, is astounding.

The caves meme is wrong anyways whichever way you look at it, as others have pointed out already. a) Tarnak Farms b) what part of living in a cave would prevent the planning and supporting of 9/11?
 
It doesn't really matter whether you debunkers believe that Al-Quaeda lived in caves or not. Your leaders do in absolute black and white and are stuck with that forever. Documented fact,signed,sealed and delivered.
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I'm having a terrible time figuring out why it would matter if they lived in caves or not.


It's pretty well understood that the Taliban and by extention Al Qaeda "lived in caves". See Tora Bora. Mountain bunkers. Caves. Same difference. The address is "in the middle of that mountain over there".

Truthers use the cavespeak as some sort of proof that these are a simple people, probably nomadic and they shun the outside world. They've probably never seen a television before, and don't know that man landed on the moon. That's the picture truthers try to paint with this ridiculous meme.

The FACT is, it doesn't matter what their address was.
 
Mr. Skinny said:
Minor point, but weren't laptops still pretty rare/expensive in 2000-2001? And were thumb drives even available then?

Pedantic I know. :o
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Laptops weren't all that cheap if you compared them to a desktop but they were around at least a decade before 9/11 because I first used one in 1990 when I was still in the navy. USB thumb drives first started showing up right around 2000 or so. They were fairly small in capacity (8mb at first I think) but I owned a 16mb one before 9/11/01 (I still have it lying around collecting dust somewhere) I used it to store my various passwords and other information that I didn't want to keep on my hard drive or on a sheet of paper just lying around.

I'm typing this on a laptop circa 2002 that still works just fine. It was a near top of the line model when I purchased it and it cost about $1,700 new at a CompUSA at the time.

My point was that the technology was readily available to anyone who had the money to buy it (and Bin Laden wasn't poor).
 
*sigh*
I repeat the opinions here... Why does it matter if they lived/hid in caves?
They weren't born in them, most were EDUCATED people. Caves/sewers/various other places have been used for planning criminal activity in the past, and hiding afterwards. Why should this have any bearing on their ability to commit those crimes?
 
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DGM said:
They also show selective memory. Rumsfeld described a rather sophisticated set-up, not some primitive caveman conditions, that was the "truthers" doing.
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You do realize it was al a lie, and they never found that kind of caves.....
 
Oystein said:
Why?
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accept the official 9/11 story, and do NOT believe that some of the involved Al Qaeda members planned this while living or hiding in caves 1337m4n, AJM8125, Boone 870, brazenlilraisin, BStrong, CompusMentus, cyclonic, deeper, DGM, Foolmewunz, frenat, George152, grmcdorman, JamesB, jj, kookbreaker, Lenbrazil, lionking, Loss Leader, Manopolus, Metullus, MikeW, Myron Proudfoot, newton3376, Oystein, Oz1976, PhantomWolf, ProBonoShill, Reactor drone, Reheat, sheeplesnshills, Skeletor, soliboy, Spektator, triforcharity, uke2se, waypastvne, wesleyv
 
Marokkaan said:
You do realize it was al a lie, and they never found that kind of caves.....
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I would never have expected them to. That picture CE posted was most likely done by the news media. I'm sure they had some aspects in that drawing (power, communication ect) but nothing that elaborate. Are you aware the media sometime embellishes?
 
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